Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
Well, I did say it was a can of worms. Let's discuss the positioning of periods and commas relative to quotation marks instead. On 8 Jun 2015, at 12:46, Eric A. Meyer wrote: I'll offer my own but of insight: Butterick is right that it doesn't matter. I just wish he and those who follow his view would take that advice to heart, and stop demonstrating to all and sundry that it really does matter to them. On 7 Jun 2015, at 23:21, Ben Klebe wrote: I can only offer this shrewd bit of insight from Matthew Butterick’s excellent Practical Typography: http://practicaltypography.com/one-space-between-sentences.html I know that many people were taught to put two spaces between sentences. I was too. But these days, using two spaces is an obsolete habit. Some say the habit originated in the typewriter era. Others believe it began earlier. But guess what? It doesn’t matter. Because either way, it’s not part of today’s typographic practice. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Gary Hull yh82d7...@yandex.com wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 9:40, Eric A. Meyer wrote: On 7 Jun 2015, at 20:16, Gary Hull wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 2:44, Ben Klebe wrote: The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Please don't open that can of worms on the mailing list!: …he said, and then wrenched the can open further. You noticed that, huh? :-) http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html Although I agree: two spaces after a period should have died with manual monospace typewriters. You and Manjoo are wrong: the wider post-sentence spacing was not a quirky, transient artifact of typewriters or monospace fonts, but has literal centuries of precedent and tradition behind it: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324 I worked in my middle school's print shop for a year setting lead type from a California case and redistributing the pi, so I know the traditions, and have read all the old pre-ITC typography books that are only available on ABE.com these days. I later worked as a graphic designer in a shop that went through the whole range of phototypography from hand-spaced display type to self-contained Compugraphic machines to Agfa-Compugraphic front-ends to Postscript imagesetters. Not to mention IBM Selectric Composers with Adrian Frutiger-designed fonts on 9-to-the-em grids. The point of books written for compositors is to teach compositors what to do. Writers didn't typeset their own books. Spacing decisions are made by the compositor, based on the font in use, the leading, and the particular letter pair. Today the function of the compositor has been taken over by the combination of the type designer and the particular system in which the font is realized (such as Postscript), which has all sorts of intelligence built into it, and additional intelligence built into the publishing software that drives the output (imagesetter or digital display). Again, the writer shouldn't be trying to force design factors like that in his manuscript (although click-to-publish bloggers have to assume some design responsibility). Fonts are no longer made of lead, you can kern without brass spacers, and you can negatively kern without filing off the lead corners of the font. The way that type looks today is the way that skilled typographers want it to work, and the best of them have simply better taste than the past masters. Old books just look blotchy to modern eyes, although they are beautiful as historical objects. At any rate, double spacer should know that publishers these days have regex routines that manuscripts get run through, fixing things like initial and trailing spaces and high-bit ASCII, and that /\w+/\w/ or the like is built into such routines. So good luck getting double spaces into print at a proper publisher. There was a period, I'll say mostly in the 1960s, 1970s, but also a bit before and after, when many low-budget publications, including many academic and scientific publications, published photographically reduced typed manuscripts. In other words, cheap typesetting was not available yet, and they couldn't afford typesetting. In these cases the style that writers had to follow specified Elite or Courier, double spacing (two returns on the typewriter), the width of margins, the number of lines per page, manual justification (with double spaces to accomplish that, or half spaces, which some typewriters could handle, such as some Olympias), and so on. Universities had typing pools that could produce such manuscripts: They functioned as the typetting departments of these low-budget journals. In such manuscripts double spacing was often used after periods and other
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
On 8 Jun 2015, at 7:53, John Purnell wrote: Steve Losh eloquently puts forward the case for 2 spaces: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/why-i-two-space/ Nice find, thanks. Coincidentally I had a similar autocorrect problem with EagleFiler just yesterday. You can switch off autocorrection in OS X Preferences but EagleFiler will still apply its own conversions (so-called Smart Quotes and Smart Dashes etc), which most definitely isn't what you want when using it to stash shell commands or snippets of code. In EagleFiler you can switch these off in Edit - Substitutions. ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
On 7 Jun 2015, at 20:02, Alan Goldsmith alangoldsm...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, was composing in Markdown. I like two spaces after a period, though I know it's not the standard anymore. I guess, what you effectively want is a wider space than normal. IMO typing two normal spaces is not the adequate method to achieve this (except if typing on a typewriter). In Unicode you have plenty of different [spaces][1] at your disposal. A normal space is similar to a four-per-em space; so I would use either a three-per-em space (U+2004) or an en space (U+2002). To make the text entry more comfortable, you could … - assign an abbreviation (e.g. .␣␣ -- . ) in any of the text expanding utilities (e.g. [Typinator][2] is very good) - assign the desired space character directly to a key, by modifying your keyboard layout (e.g. with [Ukelele][3]) -- Tom [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_character [2]: http://www.ergonis.com/products/typinator/ [3]: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsiid=ukelele ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
Yes, was composing in Markdown. I like two spaces after a period, though I know it's not the standard anymore. On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Ben Klebe benkl...@icloud.com wrote: Oh I guess OP is not composing in plain text? My apologies. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Billy Youdelman bi...@mix.com wrote: Using the composer's plain text mode seems to be one way. As can be seen here. Two spaces. ビリー ヨーデルマん +1 310 839 7673 http://MIX.ORG/ ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Alan Goldsmith alangoldsm...@gmail.com wrote: ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
Using the composer's plain text mode seems to be one way. As can be seen here. Two spaces. ビリー ヨーデルマん +1 310 839 7673 http://MIX.ORG/ ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
Oh I guess OP is not composing in plain text? My apologies. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Billy Youdelman bi...@mix.com wrote: Using the composer's plain text mode seems to be one way. As can be seen here. Two spaces. ビリー ヨーデルマん +1 310 839 7673 http://MIX.ORG/ ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
Steve Losh eloquently puts forward the case for 2 spaces: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/why-i-two-space/ On 2015-06-08, at 05:54 +0200, Ben Klebe benkl...@icloud.com wrote: No, he’s saying that when the practice began doesn’t matter because it’s not part of 21st century typography. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Eric A. Meyer e...@meyerweb.com wrote: I'll offer my own but of insight: Butterick is right that it doesn't matter. I just wish he and those who follow his view would take that advice to heart, and stop demonstrating to all and sundry that it really does matter to them. On 7 Jun 2015, at 23:21, Ben Klebe wrote: I can only offer this shrewd bit of insight from Matthew Butterick’s excellent Practical Typography: http://practicaltypography.com/one-space-between-sentences.html I know that many people were taught to put two spaces between sentences. I was too. But these days, using two spaces is an obsolete habit. Some say the habit originated in the typewriter era. Others believe it began earlier. But guess what? It doesn’t matter. Because either way, it’s not part of today’s typographic practice. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Gary Hull yh82d7...@yandex.com wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 9:40, Eric A. Meyer wrote: On 7 Jun 2015, at 20:16, Gary Hull wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 2:44, Ben Klebe wrote: The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Please don't open that can of worms on the mailing list!: …he said, and then wrenched the can open further. You noticed that, huh? :-) http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html Although I agree: two spaces after a period should have died with manual monospace typewriters. You and Manjoo are wrong: the wider post-sentence spacing was not a quirky, transient artifact of typewriters or monospace fonts, but has literal centuries of precedent and tradition behind it: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324 I worked in my middle school's print shop for a year setting lead type from a California case and redistributing the pi, so I know the traditions, and have read all the old pre-ITC typography books that are only available on ABE.com these days. I later worked as a graphic designer in a shop that went through the whole range of phototypography from hand-spaced display type to self-contained Compugraphic machines to Agfa-Compugraphic front-ends to Postscript imagesetters. Not to mention IBM Selectric Composers with Adrian Frutiger-designed fonts on 9-to-the-em grids. The point of books written for compositors is to teach compositors what to do. Writers didn't typeset their own books. Spacing decisions are made by the compositor, based on the font in use, the leading, and the particular letter pair. Today the function of the compositor has been taken over by the combination of the type designer and the particular system in which the font is realized (such as Postscript), which has all sorts of intelligence built into it, and additional intelligence built into the publishing software that drives the output (imagesetter or digital display). Again, the writer shouldn't be trying to force design factors like that in his manuscript (although click-to-publish bloggers have to assume some design responsibility). Fonts are no longer made of lead, you can kern without brass spacers, and you can negatively kern without filing off the lead corners of the font. The way that type looks today is the way that skilled typographers want it to work, and the best of them have simply better taste than the past masters. Old books just look blotchy to modern eyes, although they are beautiful as historical objects. At any rate, double spacer should know that publishers these days have regex routines that manuscripts get run through, fixing things like initial and trailing spaces and high-bit ASCII, and that /\w+/\w/ or the like is built into such routines. So good luck getting double spaces into print at a proper publisher. There was a period, I'll say mostly in the 1960s, 1970s, but also a bit before and after, when many low-budget publications, including many academic and scientific publications, published photographically reduced typed manuscripts. In other words, cheap typesetting was not available yet, and they couldn't afford typesetting. In these cases the style that writers had to follow specified Elite or Courier, double spacing (two returns on the typewriter), the width of margins, the number of lines per page, manual justification (with double spaces to accomplish that, or half spaces, which some typewriters could handle, such as some Olympias), and so on. Universities had typing pools that could
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
No, he’s saying that when the practice began doesn’t matter because it’s not part of 21st century typography. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Eric A. Meyer e...@meyerweb.com wrote: I'll offer my own but of insight: Butterick is right that it doesn't matter. I just wish he and those who follow his view would take that advice to heart, and stop demonstrating to all and sundry that it really does matter to them. On 7 Jun 2015, at 23:21, Ben Klebe wrote: I can only offer this shrewd bit of insight from Matthew Butterick’s excellent Practical Typography: http://practicaltypography.com/one-space-between-sentences.html I know that many people were taught to put two spaces between sentences. I was too. But these days, using two spaces is an obsolete habit. Some say the habit originated in the typewriter era. Others believe it began earlier. But guess what? It doesn’t matter. Because either way, it’s not part of today’s typographic practice. Sincerely, Ben Klebe On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Gary Hull yh82d7...@yandex.com wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 9:40, Eric A. Meyer wrote: On 7 Jun 2015, at 20:16, Gary Hull wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 2:44, Ben Klebe wrote: The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Please don't open that can of worms on the mailing list!: …he said, and then wrenched the can open further. You noticed that, huh? :-) http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html Although I agree: two spaces after a period should have died with manual monospace typewriters. You and Manjoo are wrong: the wider post-sentence spacing was not a quirky, transient artifact of typewriters or monospace fonts, but has literal centuries of precedent and tradition behind it: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324 I worked in my middle school's print shop for a year setting lead type from a California case and redistributing the pi, so I know the traditions, and have read all the old pre-ITC typography books that are only available on ABE.com these days. I later worked as a graphic designer in a shop that went through the whole range of phototypography from hand-spaced display type to self-contained Compugraphic machines to Agfa-Compugraphic front-ends to Postscript imagesetters. Not to mention IBM Selectric Composers with Adrian Frutiger-designed fonts on 9-to-the-em grids. The point of books written for compositors is to teach compositors what to do. Writers didn't typeset their own books. Spacing decisions are made by the compositor, based on the font in use, the leading, and the particular letter pair. Today the function of the compositor has been taken over by the combination of the type designer and the particular system in which the font is realized (such as Postscript), which has all sorts of intelligence built into it, and additional intelligence built into the publishing software that drives the output (imagesetter or digital display). Again, the writer shouldn't be trying to force design factors like that in his manuscript (although click-to-publish bloggers have to assume some design responsibility). Fonts are no longer made of lead, you can kern without brass spacers, and you can negatively kern without filing off the lead corners of the font. The way that type looks today is the way that skilled typographers want it to work, and the best of them have simply better taste than the past masters. Old books just look blotchy to modern eyes, although they are beautiful as historical objects. At any rate, double spacer should know that publishers these days have regex routines that manuscripts get run through, fixing things like initial and trailing spaces and high-bit ASCII, and that /\w+/\w/ or the like is built into such routines. So good luck getting double spaces into print at a proper publisher. There was a period, I'll say mostly in the 1960s, 1970s, but also a bit before and after, when many low-budget publications, including many academic and scientific publications, published photographically reduced typed manuscripts. In other words, cheap typesetting was not available yet, and they couldn't afford typesetting. In these cases the style that writers had to follow specified Elite or Courier, double spacing (two returns on the typewriter), the width of margins, the number of lines per page, manual justification (with double spaces to accomplish that, or half spaces, which some typewriters could handle, such as some Olympias), and so on. Universities had typing pools that could produce such manuscripts: They functioned as the typetting departments of
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
On 8 Jun 2015, at 9:40, Eric A. Meyer wrote: On 7 Jun 2015, at 20:16, Gary Hull wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 2:44, Ben Klebe wrote: The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Please don't open that can of worms on the mailing list!: …he said, and then wrenched the can open further. You noticed that, huh? :-) http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html Although I agree: two spaces after a period should have died with manual monospace typewriters. You and Manjoo are wrong: the wider post-sentence spacing was not a quirky, transient artifact of typewriters or monospace fonts, but has literal centuries of precedent and tradition behind it: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324 I worked in my middle school's print shop for a year setting lead type from a California case and redistributing the pi, so I know the traditions, and have read all the old pre-ITC typography books that are only available on ABE.com these days. I later worked as a graphic designer in a shop that went through the whole range of phototypography from hand-spaced display type to self-contained Compugraphic machines to Agfa-Compugraphic front-ends to Postscript imagesetters. Not to mention IBM Selectric Composers with Adrian Frutiger-designed fonts on 9-to-the-em grids. The point of books written for compositors is to teach compositors what to do. Writers didn't typeset their own books. Spacing decisions are made by the compositor, based on the font in use, the leading, and the particular letter pair. Today the function of the compositor has been taken over by the combination of the type designer and the particular system in which the font is realized (such as Postscript), which has all sorts of intelligence built into it, and additional intelligence built into the publishing software that drives the output (imagesetter or digital display). Again, the writer shouldn't be trying to force design factors like that in his manuscript (although click-to-publish bloggers have to assume some design responsibility). Fonts are no longer made of lead, you can kern without brass spacers, and you can negatively kern without filing off the lead corners of the font. The way that type looks today is the way that skilled typographers want it to work, and the best of them have simply better taste than the past masters. Old books just look blotchy to modern eyes, although they are beautiful as historical objects. At any rate, double spacer should know that publishers these days have regex routines that manuscripts get run through, fixing things like initial and trailing spaces and high-bit ASCII, and that /\w+/\w/ or the like is built into such routines. So good luck getting double spaces into print at a proper publisher. There was a period, I'll say mostly in the 1960s, 1970s, but also a bit before and after, when many low-budget publications, including many academic and scientific publications, published photographically reduced typed manuscripts. In other words, cheap typesetting was not available yet, and they couldn't afford typesetting. In these cases the style that writers had to follow specified Elite or Courier, double spacing (two returns on the typewriter), the width of margins, the number of lines per page, manual justification (with double spaces to accomplish that, or half spaces, which some typewriters could handle, such as some Olympias), and so on. Universities had typing pools that could produce such manuscripts: They functioned as the typetting departments of these low-budget journals. In such manuscripts double spacing was often used after periods and other sentence-final punctuation, and then after other words if necessary to justify the text. People who learned typing in that era tended to use textbooks that specified double spacing. They were in effect learning half-assed typesetting. The factors that lead to that style no longer exist. ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
On 7 Jun 2015, at 20:16, Gary Hull wrote: On 8 Jun 2015, at 2:44, Ben Klebe wrote: The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Please don't open that can of worms on the mailing list!: …he said, and then wrenched the can open further. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html Although I agree: two spaces after a period should have died with manual monospace typewriters. You and Manjoo are wrong: the wider post-sentence spacing was not a quirky, transient artifact of typewriters or monospace fonts, but has literal centuries of precedent and tradition behind it: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324 -- Eric A. Meyer - http://meyerweb.com/ ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Any way to prevent auto-correcting two spaces after a period to one?
On 8 Jun 2015, at 2:44, Ben Klebe wrote: The autocorrect is system-wide in Cocoa text fields. To change it, go to System Preferences - Keyboard - Text and uncheck “Correct spelling automatically.” Strangely though I can’t replicate this behavior and furthermore why would you want two spaces after a period? Please don't open that can of worms on the mailing list!: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html Although I agree: two spaces after a period should have died with manual monospace typewriters. I loved the way that the DTP program FrameMaker simply refused to allow two sequential spaces (although you could override it in the preferences). In theory HTML won't allow it, and combines sequential into one space, but Microsoft programs get around that using some sort of weird ASCII fixed space character next to a normal space character. ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
