Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

It’s slightly different. 

Apple Private Relay is only allowing DMARC passing mail (even in the absence of 
an actual DMARC record, they’re requiring alignment between SPF/DKIM and the 
5322.from) from sender registered email addresses. They’re also mediating the 
signup process and doing header modifications along the way. 

Firefox is acting simply as a mail forwarding service and has none of the 
requirements in place on the sender. 

laura 

> On 5 Jan 2021, at 21:50, Brandon Long via mailop  wrote:
> 
> Isn't this just Firefox's copy of Apple's "sign-in with Apple" feature?  
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425 
> 
> 
> I haven't looked closely at Apple's, they may be leveraging their existing 
> domains which already have decent reputation to not worry
> about the relay issue.
> 
> Whether providers can handle properly dinging relays is of course a known 
> issue.  And this will partially depend on how good the SES 
> spam handling is, with the same caveat of all relays that lack spam feedback.
> 
> Brandon
> 
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 4:03 AM Andrew C Aitchison via mailop 
> mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
> 
> I note a new service: Firefox Relay
> https://relay.firefox.com/ 
> 
> As you browse, the Relay icon will appear in form fields where
> sites ask for your email address. Select it to generate a new,
> random address that ends in @relay.firefox.com 
> . Relay will forward
> messages to the primary email address associated with your account.
> 
> I guess we need to prepare for forwarded emails to our users via a new
> intermediate.
> 
> I guess that some email services will either fail to, or chose not to,
> accept these messages.
> 
> -- 
> Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
> and...@aitchison.me.uk 
> ___
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> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop 
> 
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-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Suresh Ramasubramanian via mailop]

Apple uses privaterelay.appleid.com for such emails.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/sign_in_with_apple/sign_in_with_apple_js/communicating_using_the_private_email_relay_service

Spam handling is considerably minimised by the fact that only the app’s owners 
can communicate with their users over the user’s private relay address, nobody 
else can.

--srs

From: mailop  on behalf of Brandon Long via mailop 

Date: Wednesday, 6 January 2021 at 3:30 AM
To: Andrew C Aitchison 
Cc: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay
Isn't this just Firefox's copy of Apple's "sign-in with Apple" feature?  
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425

I haven't looked closely at Apple's, they may be leveraging their existing 
domains which already have decent reputation to not worry
about the relay issue.

Whether providers can handle properly dinging relays is of course a known 
issue.  And this will partially depend on how good the SES
spam handling is, with the same caveat of all relays that lack spam feedback.

Brandon

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 4:03 AM Andrew C Aitchison via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

I note a new service: Firefox Relay
https://relay.firefox.com/

As you browse, the Relay icon will appear in form fields where
sites ask for your email address. Select it to generate a new,
random address that ends in @relay.firefox.com<http://relay.firefox.com>. 
Relay will forward
messages to the primary email address associated with your account.

I guess we need to prepare for forwarded emails to our users via a new
intermediate.

I guess that some email services will either fail to, or chose not to,
accept these messages.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk<mailto:and...@aitchison.me.uk>
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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Brandon Long via mailop]

Isn't this just Firefox's copy of Apple's "sign-in with Apple" feature?
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210425

I haven't looked closely at Apple's, they may be leveraging their existing
domains which already have decent reputation to not worry
about the relay issue.

Whether providers can handle properly dinging relays is of course a known
issue.  And this will partially depend on how good the SES
spam handling is, with the same caveat of all relays that lack spam
feedback.

Brandon

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 4:03 AM Andrew C Aitchison via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

>
> I note a new service: Firefox Relay
> https://relay.firefox.com/
>
> As you browse, the Relay icon will appear in form fields where
> sites ask for your email address. Select it to generate a new,
> random address that ends in @relay.firefox.com. Relay will forward
> messages to the primary email address associated with your account.
>
> I guess we need to prepare for forwarded emails to our users via a new
> intermediate.
>
> I guess that some email services will either fail to, or chose not to,
> accept these messages.
>
> --
> Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
> and...@aitchison.me.uk
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
>
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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Jay R. Ashworth via mailop]

- Original Message -
> From: "Russell Clemings via mailop" 

> On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 6:21 AM Robert Rubenking via mailop < 
> mailop@mailop.org
> > wrote:
> 
> They also state that anything marked as spam will ding the reputation of relay
> service.
> "If you report these as spam, your email provider will see Relay as the source
> of spam, not the original sender."
> 
> 
> This looks like a fatal flaw. How long before Relay winds up on a lot of
> blacklists?

Unless I badly misunderstand the RFCs, and I don't think I do, that means
they're screwing up pretty badly somewhere.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274
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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Ken Simpson via mailop]

>
>
> >
> >"While Relay does not filter for spam, our email partner Amazon SES does
> block spam and malware. If Relay forwards
> >messages you don’t want, you can update your Relay settings to block
> messages from the alias forwarding them"
>
> "It's your job to filter the spam we send."
>
> Perhaps not. Firefox and Mozilla have an interesting idea both of how
> virtuous they are and how much people care.
>

I suppose we'll be seeing Mozilla at M3AAWG soon, then? /s

If the product lead for this project is listening to mailop (they likely
aren't), IMHO they should strongly consider receiving the relay email and
forwarding it over a different medium, such as smart phone notifications,
Slack, or even just web hooks. Indeed if they allowed folks to configure
their own web hook endpoints for relayed messages, then people could route
messages however they wish.

For that matter, why not have the relay service route messages into users'
Firefox accounts and have the messages pop up directly within Firefox? Your
Firefox account is a well authenticated, secure channel for receiving
messages already. Why not make us of it?

Regards,
Ken
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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[John Levine via mailop]

In article 

 you write:
>Interesting enough, guess we will have to wait and see if gains any traction.
>Essentially a reputable disposable domain if such a thing exists... actually 
>according the FAQ's they will be
>leveraging Amazon SES.  https://relay.firefox.com/faq
>
>"While Relay does not filter for spam, our email partner Amazon SES does block 
>spam and malware. If Relay forwards
>messages you don’t want, you can update your Relay settings to block messages 
>from the alias forwarding them"

"It's your job to filter the spam we send."

Perhaps not. Firefox and Mozilla have an interesting idea both of how
virtuous they are and how much people care.

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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Russell Clemings via mailop]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 6:21 AM Robert Rubenking via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

>
> They also state that anything marked as spam will ding the reputation of
> relay service.
> "If you report these as spam, your email provider will see Relay as the
> source of spam, not the original sender."
>
>
This looks like a fatal flaw. How long before Relay winds up on a lot of
blacklists?
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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Paul Gregg via mailop]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 11:52:31AM +, Andrew C Aitchison via mailop wrote:
> 
> I note a new service: Firefox Relay
>   https://relay.firefox.com
> 
>As you browse, the Relay icon will appear in form fields where
>sites ask for your email address. Select it to generate a new,
>random address that ends in @relay.firefox.com. Relay will forward
>messages to the primary email address associated with your account.
> 
> I guess we need to prepare for forwarded emails to our users via a new
> intermediate.
> 
> I guess that some email services will either fail to, or chose not to,
> accept these messages.

anon.penet.fi is reborn :)

PG
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Re: [mailop] Firefox Relay

[Robert Rubenking via mailop]

Interesting enough, guess we will have to wait and see if gains any traction.
Essentially a reputable disposable domain if such a thing exists... actually 
according the FAQ's they will be leveraging Amazon SES.  
https://relay.firefox.com/faq

"While Relay does not filter for spam, our email partner Amazon SES does block 
spam and malware. If Relay forwards messages you don’t want, you can update 
your Relay settings to block messages from the alias forwarding them"

They also state that anything marked as spam will ding the reputation of relay 
service.
"If you report these as spam, your email provider will see Relay as the source 
of spam, not the original sender."

Bob
-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Andrew C Aitchison via 
mailop
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2020 5:53 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Firefox Relay

This email has reached Mapp via an external source


I note a new service: Firefox Relay
https://relay.firefox.com/

As you browse, the Relay icon will appear in form fields where
sites ask for your email address. Select it to generate a new,
random address that ends in @relay.firefox.com. Relay will forward
messages to the primary email address associated with your account.

I guess we need to prepare for forwarded emails to our users via a new 
intermediate.

I guess that some email services will either fail to, or chose not to, accept 
these messages.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk 
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[mailop] Firefox Relay

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

I note a new service: Firefox Relay
https://relay.firefox.com/

   As you browse, the Relay icon will appear in form fields where
   sites ask for your email address. Select it to generate a new,
   random address that ends in @relay.firefox.com. Relay will forward
   messages to the primary email address associated with your account.

I guess we need to prepare for forwarded emails to our users via a new
intermediate.

I guess that some email services will either fail to, or chose not to,
accept these messages.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk
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