[mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Dave Shevett via mailop]

Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.

Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
isn't customer facing stuff.

We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?

-- 
Dave Shevett
shev...@pobox.com
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Russell Clemings via mailop]

There's a list here:

https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services

I don't vouch for any of them but EMWD is pretty active on the Mailman
lists. The rest I know nothing about.



On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:35 AM Dave Shevett via mailop 
wrote:

> Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
> a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
> dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.
>
> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
> isn't customer facing stuff.
>
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
>
> --
> Dave Shevett
> shev...@pobox.com
> ___
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>


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===
Russell Clemings

===
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Simplelists - Andrew Beverley via mailop]

On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 11:04:04 -0500 Dave Shevett wrote:
> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
> isn't customer facing stuff.
> 
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?

Shameless plug for Simplelists.com ;-)

Message me off-list if you have any specific questions.

Andy
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:35 AM Dave Shevett via mailop 
wrote:

>
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
>
>
> I'm the guy that runs groups.io. Feel free to email me off-list if you
(or anyone else) have any questions.

Cheers,
Mark
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Stephen Frost via mailop]

Greetings,

* Dave Shevett via mailop (mailop@mailop.org) wrote:
> Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
> a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
> dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.

Yeah, we decided against mailman due to that issue and a few others.

> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
> isn't customer facing stuff.
> 
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?

Certainly understand wanting to get away from running your own thing,
but if you're open to considering an alternative bit of software that
cares a good bit about making sure to not break DKIM, et al, you might
check out pglister which is what postgresql.org uses and which we
maintain.  We're not a huge operation but not small either (few
hundred thousand emails a day outbound).

Might be a few rough spots around getting it to work outside of our
infra, but that was part of the original design and hopefully wouldn't
take too much and we'd appreciate it being more accessible to others to
use (and contribute back to).

https://gitlab.com/pglister/pglister

Thanks,

Stephen


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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Dave Shevett via mailop]

Wer're actually running on a linode now that's pretty much dedicated
to running mailman.  The issue is there's still a lot of yak-shaving
to make it all work, in particular understanding how to get dkim
signatures to work when mailman rewrites the envelope.  Could be the
next version of mailman will fix this, but we're all old fart geeks,
and at some point you just have to go "Y aknow what?  I'mg oing to pay
someone else to do this."

 -d

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:07 PM Mark Fletcher via mailop
 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:35 AM Dave Shevett via mailop  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
>>
>>
> I'm the guy that runs groups.io. Feel free to email me off-list if you (or 
> anyone else) have any questions.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
> ___
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> mailop@mailop.org
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-- 
Dave Shevett
shev...@pobox.com
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Allen Kitchen (zoominternet) via mailop]

+1 for groups.io based on list participant experience.. [wpbgc] 

Thanks, Mark.

..Allen

> On Dec 16, 2020, at 12:06, Mark Fletcher via mailop  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:35 AM Dave Shevett via mailop  
>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
>> 
>> 
> I'm the guy that runs groups.io. Feel free to email me off-list if you (or 
> anyone else) have any questions. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Scott Mutter via mailop]

Have you considered simply putting up a website and putting phpBB or SMF or
some other free forum software on it?  You can set the forum to be private
so users have to login to see posts.

Honestly, I see mailing lists as a dying breed (said as I post this to a
mailing list).  A forum tends to work out better.  It's a pull (users pull
content only if they want to receive the content) rather than a push (users
are pushed content - if they are subscribed - whether they want to or not).

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 10:04 AM Dave Shevett via mailop 
wrote:

> Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
> a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
> dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.
>
> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
> isn't customer facing stuff.
>
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
>
> --
> Dave Shevett
> shev...@pobox.com
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
>
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Thomas Walter via mailop]

On 16.12.20 18:21, Scott Mutter via mailop wrote:
> Honestly, I see mailing lists as a dying breed (said as I post this to a
> mailing list).  A forum tends to work out better.  It's a pull (users
> pull content only if they want to receive the content) rather than a
> push (users are pushed content - if they are subscribed - whether they
> want to or not).

And a lot of times push is exactly what is needed.

Regards,
Thomas Walter

-- 
Thomas Walter
Datenverarbeitungszentrale

FH Münster
- University of Applied Sciences -
Corrensstr. 25, Raum B 112
48149 Münster

Tel: +49 251 83 64 908
Fax: +49 251 83 64 910
www.fh-muenster.de/dvz/



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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 12/16/20 10:21 AM, Scott Mutter via mailop wrote:
Have you considered simply putting up a website and putting phpBB or SMF 
or some other free forum software on it?  You can set the forum to be 
private so users have to login to see posts.


That's a bait and switch to me.

Web (only) forums do *NOT* offer the same functionality as mailing lists.

Perhaps some forums can email posts to members (subscribers).

Maybe even some of the forums allow new submissions via email.  I don't 
know.


Note how that's three distinctly different classes of forum applications.

Honestly, I see mailing lists as a dying breed (said as I post this to a 
mailing list).


That's your opinion.  One I happen to moderately disagree with.


A forum tends to work out better.


That's also your opinion.  One I VEHEMENTLY disagree with.

As someone who subscribes to, reads, and interacts with about 300 
mailing lists and 200 newsgroups, there is no way in REDACTED that I'm 
going to go to 500 different forums, many of which behave differently.


For me, all 500 different lists / newsgroups come to /one/ interface 
where I have /complete/ control over.


Just because that an airplane and hiking shoes can get you across the 
country, does not mean that they are even remotely comparable to each other.


It's a pull (users pull content only if they want to receive the 
content) rather than a push (users are pushed content - if they are 
subscribed - whether they want to or not).


Pulling from 500 different locations as opposed to 500 different 
locations pushing to my single location is a COMPLETELY different usage 
model.


Baiting me with a push and then switching to a pull model is 
disingenuous at best.


Don't even get me started on the UI/UX of things that I don't control.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[William Kern via mailop]

On 16.12.20 18:21, Scott Mutter via mailop wrote:


Honestly, I see mailing lists as a dying breed (said as I post this to a
mailing list).  A forum tends to work out better.  It's a pull (users
pull content only if they want to receive the content) rather than a
push (users are pushed content - if they are subscribed - whether they
want to or not).



yet pull is a problem. Its great if you are searching for something.

However, If I am need to monitor a topic then I don't want to have to 
remember to login to the forum constantly. If I don't I miss out.


Some forums will allow you an RSS feed but many don't. Some will send 
you an email of the Highlights, but that misses a lot of side topics 
that might have interesting tidbits.


I already live in my email, its easier to spot it there as I'm doing 
real work.


Yesterday's Gmail fiasco was the perfect example. I already knew what 
tell customers when they called up wondering why their email to a VIP 
customer bounced back.


Maybe its a generational issue. I don't hang out on 
Facebook/Instagram/Twitter like my kids do. If so, I *may* have seen the 
Gmail issue discussed there early enough, but only if I constantly 
monitor the right threads.


William Kern

PixelGate Networks.
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Graeme Fowler via mailop]

Admin note follows:

Dave originally asked a very specific question, about mailing list hosting. Not 
forums, or IRC, or any other collaboration tools.

Please provide specific and relevant answers, and let’s not make *this mailing 
list* disintegrate into a religious discussion about the whys and wherefores of 
a bazillion different ways of doing things.

Thanks

Graeme (obo moderators)
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[John Levine via mailop]

In article  
you write:
>
>Have you considered simply putting up a website and putting phpBB or SMF or
>some other free forum software on it?  You can set the forum to be private
>so users have to login to see posts.

Life is too short to go visiting a hundred random web sites to see if
there is anything interesting on them. I know about RSS, but most of
the web forums don't, and RSS with passwords is flaky at best.

Returning to mailing lists, Sympa is sort of the European equivalent
of Mailman. It's written in perl rather than python, works well and
has built in DKIM and ARC support that actually works. I wrote the ARC
support.

I've also been happy with groups.io.  Their free level is pretty good.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Phil Pennock via mailop]

On 2020-12-16 at 12:10 -0500, Dave Shevett via mailop wrote:
> Wer're actually running on a linode now that's pretty much dedicated
> to running mailman.  The issue is there's still a lot of yak-shaving
> to make it all work, in particular understanding how to get dkim
> signatures to work when mailman rewrites the envelope.  Could be the
> next version of mailman will fix this, but we're all old fart geeks,
> and at some point you just have to go "Y aknow what?  I'mg oing to pay
> someone else to do this."

Not going to argue against outsourcing, that can be a good call, but in
case it helps you buy time to evaluate the options:

DKIM doesn't touch the envelope, only the message headers.

I've found that what works the best is "REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS" set to 3,
BUT editing Handlers/CleanseDKIM.py to not rename the
authentication-results header, which is needed for ARC validation.  Let
it rename the others out of the way but not that header.

Set DEFAULT_DMARC_NONE_MODERATION_ACTION to Yes, so that the sender's
domain owner doesn't get deliverability reports from sites with folks
subscribed to the list; DMARC reports are otherwise a major privacy
problem.

Then the MTA for the domain needs to sign outbound mail.  If doing ARC,
you're also going to need to record the decision to ARC-sign, which I do
by having the MTA shove that into a header when feeding into Mailman,
then remove that header from the messages out from Mailman.

Given all the steps I put into

it's hard to argue against outsourcing.  Ugh.  Some days I truly hate
email.

-Phil
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Dave Ely via mailop]

I’m not sure who can help me out with this, but my husband has a folder of 
emails that come from a mailing list.
Can you please remove d...@dijatool.com  or anything 
with the name David/Dave Ely from all mailing lists?
This is his wife Sarah, and Dave Ely has passed away.

Thanks, Sarah

> On Dec 16, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Dave Shevett via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
> a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
> dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.
> 
> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
> isn't customer facing stuff.
> 
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
> 
> -- 
> Dave Shevett
> shev...@pobox.com
> ___
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Graeme Fowler via mailop]

On 16 Dec 2020, at 20:24, Dave Ely via mailop  wrote:
> I’m not sure who can help me out with this, but my husband has a folder of 
> emails that come from a mailing list.

Dealt with off-list.

Graeme (obo mods)
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Jay R. Ashworth via mailop]

- Original Message -
> From: "Grant Taylor via mailop" 

> On 12/16/20 10:21 AM, Scott Mutter via mailop wrote:
>> Have you considered simply putting up a website and putting phpBB or SMF
>> or some other free forum software on it?  You can set the forum to be
>> private so users have to login to see posts.
> 
> That's a bait and switch to me.
> 
> Web (only) forums do *NOT* offer the same functionality as mailing lists.

Oh dear ghod, no.  

>> Honestly, I see mailing lists as a dying breed (said as I post this to a
>> mailing list).
> 
> That's your opinion.  One I happen to moderately disagree with.
> 
>> A forum tends to work out better.
> 
> That's also your opinion.  One I VEHEMENTLY disagree with.

Concur with Grant here.

> As someone who subscribes to, reads, and interacts with about 300
> mailing lists and 200 newsgroups, there is no way in REDACTED that I'm
> going to go to 500 different forums, many of which behave differently.
> 
> For me, all 500 different lists / newsgroups come to /one/ interface
> where I have /complete/ control over.

Exactly.  Though I'm only on about 8 or so.

Showoff.  :-)

> Pulling from 500 different locations as opposed to 500 different
> locations pushing to my single location is a COMPLETELY different usage
> model.

Well, devils advocate: 500 different mailing lists push to your inbox.  :-) 

> Baiting me with a push and then switching to a pull model is
> disingenuous at best.
> 
> Don't even get me started on the UI/UX of things that I don't control.
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

And that's it, right there.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink   j...@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think   RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647 1274
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Scott Mutter via mailop]

OK... OK...

First rule about fight club, eh?

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 7:13 PM Jay R. Ashworth via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

> - Original Message -
> > From: "Grant Taylor via mailop" 
>
> > On 12/16/20 10:21 AM, Scott Mutter via mailop wrote:
> >> Have you considered simply putting up a website and putting phpBB or SMF
> >> or some other free forum software on it?  You can set the forum to be
> >> private so users have to login to see posts.
> >
> > That's a bait and switch to me.
> >
> > Web (only) forums do *NOT* offer the same functionality as mailing lists.
>
> Oh dear ghod, no.
>
> >> Honestly, I see mailing lists as a dying breed (said as I post this to a
> >> mailing list).
> >
> > That's your opinion.  One I happen to moderately disagree with.
> >
> >> A forum tends to work out better.
> >
> > That's also your opinion.  One I VEHEMENTLY disagree with.
>
> Concur with Grant here.
>
> > As someone who subscribes to, reads, and interacts with about 300
> > mailing lists and 200 newsgroups, there is no way in REDACTED that I'm
> > going to go to 500 different forums, many of which behave differently.
> >
> > For me, all 500 different lists / newsgroups come to /one/ interface
> > where I have /complete/ control over.
>
> Exactly.  Though I'm only on about 8 or so.
>
> Showoff.  :-)
>
> > Pulling from 500 different locations as opposed to 500 different
> > locations pushing to my single location is a COMPLETELY different usage
> > model.
>
> Well, devils advocate: 500 different mailing lists push to your inbox.
> :-)
>
> > Baiting me with a push and then switching to a pull model is
> > disingenuous at best.
> >
> > Don't even get me started on the UI/UX of things that I don't control.
> > --
> > Grant. . . .
> > unix || die
>
> And that's it, right there.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
> --
> Jay R. Ashworth  Baylink
> j...@baylink.com
> Designer The Things I Think   RFC
> 2100
> Ashworth & Associates   http://www.bcp38.info  2000 Land
> Rover DII
> St Petersburg FL USA  BCP38: Ask For It By Name!   +1 727 647
> 1274
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Louis Laureys via mailop]

Perhaps some forums can email posts to members


I know discourse (which is pretty popular nowadays) has a mailing list 
mode. Which could be nice if you have both users who prefer forums and 
users who prefer mailing lists.


Louis
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Dave Shevett via mailop]

Thanks Russell, this is helpful.  Does the current version of Mailman
handle dkim stuff properly?  If so we may just go nuts and upgrade our
existing install, but if the dkim problem still exists, we're going to
look elsewhere.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 11:46 AM Russell Clemings via mailop
 wrote:
>
> There's a list here:
>
> https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services
>
> I don't vouch for any of them but EMWD is pretty active on the Mailman lists. 
> The rest I know nothing about.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 8:35 AM Dave Shevett via mailop  
> wrote:
>>
>> Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
>> a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
>> dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.
>>
>> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
>> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
>> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
>> isn't customer facing stuff.
>>
>> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?
>>
>> --
>> Dave Shevett
>> shev...@pobox.com
>> ___
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>> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
>
>
>
> --
> ===
> Russell Clemings
> 
> ===
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Dave Shevett
shev...@pobox.com
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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Andy Ringsmuth via mailop]

> On Dec 16, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Dave Shevett via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> Hey folks, maybe ya'll can help us out.  We've been running mailman on
> a set of linodes for... er, a long time.  We're having problems
> dealing with DKIM stuff, particularly with google.
> 
> Does anyone know of a hosting company that uses mailman (or something
> roughly equivalent) and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?  We're a social
> community that uses the mailing list for internal dicusssions - this
> isn't customer facing stuff.
> 
> We're looking at groups.io as well - any other suggestions?

DreamHost is good, uses Mailman, cost is reasonable.


-Andy

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Re: [mailop] Looking for possible mailing list hosting

[Russell Clemings via mailop]

I believe Mailman 3 can be used in both forum and mailing list mode. At
least, the Mailman 3 users list looks pretty forumish:

https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/



On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 4:01 AM Louis Laureys via mailop 
wrote:

> > Perhaps some forums can email posts to members
>
> I know discourse (which is pretty popular nowadays) has a mailing list
> mode. Which could be nice if you have both users who prefer forums and
> users who prefer mailing lists.
>
> Louis
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===
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