[mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Hey friends, I just noticed that on November 22nd, Google started returning new errors: 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail originating from your SPF domain [userdomain.tld 15]. To protect our users from spam, mail sent from your domain has been temporarily rate limited. For more information, go to https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. o13-20020a056870200d00b002033c710f0asi2122725oab.109 - gsmtp And a little of this: 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail originating from your DKIM domain [ 15]. To protect our users from spam, mail sent from your domain has been temporarily rate limited. Please visit https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. y5-20020a056808130500b003b3eaa2eb4esi890433oiv.53 - gsmtp And of course, the more generic: 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail. To protect our users from spam, mail has been temporarily rate limited. Please visit https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. i1-20020a9d68c100b006d47c518673si38890oto.150 - gsmtp It seems like Google is no longer just rate limiting IP addresses for this, but getting down into finer detail when rate limiting. Perhaps it was always there and the messaging has just been clarified. Either way, a welcome change, and good news for anyone who didn't know about it. Obligatory: We don't intend to send any email their way that could be perceived as unsolicited, but our users do use forwarders and we'll never completely match their filters. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Am 16.12.2023 um 16:07:19 Uhr schrieb Jarland Donnell via mailop: > Obligatory: We don't intend to send any email their way that could be > perceived as unsolicited, but our users do use forwarders and we'll > never completely match their filters. If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope sender isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
On Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Marco Moock via mailop wrote: Am 16.12.2023 um 16:07:19 Uhr schrieb Jarland Donnell via mailop: Obligatory: We don't intend to send any email their way that could be perceived as unsolicited, but our users do use forwarders and we'll never completely match their filters. If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope sender isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. I think Jarland meant that his system allows users to forward received messages (to Google). -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK and...@aitchison.me.uk ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Am 17.12.2023 um 09:28:16 Uhr schrieb Andrew C Aitchison via mailop: > On Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Marco Moock via mailop wrote: > > > Am 16.12.2023 um 16:07:19 Uhr schrieb Jarland Donnell via mailop: > > > >> Obligatory: We don't intend to send any email their way that could > >> be perceived as unsolicited, but our users do use forwarders and > >> we'll never completely match their filters. > > > > If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope > > sender isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. > > I think Jarland meant that his system allows users to forward > received messages (to Google). That is exactly what I mean. Depending on the configuration of the forwarder, the MAIL FROM stays the same as the incoming message and that means that SPF will fail when that message is being sent to a server that checks SPF (Google does). ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Marco Moock via mailop skrev den 2023-12-17 09:00: Am 16.12.2023 um 16:07:19 Uhr schrieb Jarland Donnell via mailop: Obligatory: We don't intend to send any email their way that could be perceived as unsolicited, but our users do use forwarders and we'll never completely match their filters. If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope sender isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. false, every forwarder changes envelope sender, so if spf should keep pass, its the new forwarding host job to ensure this new envelope sender have spf working problem is that it breaks dmarc aligment, but non aligned mails is still fine for maillists hopefully mailman will ARC-Sign / ARC-seal before it breaks dkim let the experts do there work ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Am 17.12.2023 um 10:45:04 Uhr schrieb Benny Pedersen via mailop: > false, every forwarder changes envelope sender, so if spf should keep > pass, its the new forwarding host job to ensure this new envelope > sender have spf working That depends on the setting of the forwarder. Some organizations use aliases for forwarding, Envelope-Sender won't change in that case unless other rulesets change it. The sieve forwarding in Cyrus also doesn't rewrite it, at least in the version that is in use in our organization. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
On 17/12/2023 10:45, Benny Pedersen via mailop wrote: hopefully mailman will ARC-Sign / ARC-seal before it breaks dkim That's not the correct way to do it. Authentication results have to be collected on entry, before passing the message to Mailman. The seal, and A-Rs conversion to AAR are to be done later, after Mailman hands the message out. Best Ale -- ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Hello, On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 10:45:04AM +0100, Benny Pedersen via mailop wrote: > Marco Moock via mailop skrev den 2023-12-17 09:00: > > If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope sender > > isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. > > false, every forwarder changes envelope sender, so if spf should keep pass, Numerous customers of ours who think an entry in /etc/aliases will let their email to go their gmail would disagree with you (once they understand what is going on). (I'm not saying they SHOULD expect it to work. That ship has sailed. But the expectation is there.) Thanks, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Indeed. We use SRS though and Google seems to like it fine enough, I just mean to say that I’ll never filter 1:1 what Google considers to be spam from email forwarding. It’s not all even spam really, but like any of us they have their own challenges. I also noticed our list friend Al made a blog post about the new messages they return: https://www.spamresource.com/2023/11/gmail-new-spam-related-rejections-and.html?m=1 I “think” these new messages represent a clarification on the reasons more than a change of the internal reasons. I’ve long suspected their IP rate limit message of only sometimes being an actual IP based rate limit. I just never sat down long enough to prove it. On 2023-12-17 02:00, Marco Moock via mailop wrote: Am 16.12.2023 um 16:07:19 Uhr schrieb Jarland Donnell via mailop: Obligatory: We don't intend to send any email their way that could be perceived as unsolicited, but our users do use forwarders and we'll never completely match their filters. If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope sender isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
On 17/12/2023 15:01, Jarland Donnell via mailop wrote: > I “think” these new messages represent a clarification on the reasons > more than a change of the internal reasons. I’ve long suspected their IP > rate limit message of only sometimes being an actual IP based rate > limit. I just never sat down long enough to prove it. No, I think this is something new. Total email to Google this month, by outgoing server (email to multiple recipients counted multiple times): G P Y 2023-12-01 1 2 8 2023-12-02 1 2 0 2023-12-03 0 0 1 2023-12-04 0 0 2 2023-12-07 1 0 1 2023-12-08 1 0 0 2023-12-09 0 1 2 2023-12-11 1 0 1 2023-12-13 2 0 0 2023-12-14 2 0 3 Today I'm getting "Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail originating from your IP Netblock [78.47.120.45 15]". The last time I got an "Our system has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail originating from your IP address" was 2019-07-15 and it was successfully delivered through one of Google's other incoming servers before it ran out of MX records to attempt delivery to. -- Simon Arlott ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
On 2023-12-17 at 04:45:04 UTC-0500 (Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:45:04 +0100) Benny Pedersen via mailop is rumored to have said: false, every forwarder changes envelope sender, No matter how many times you say this, it remains a dangerously misleading lie. If, on a Unix-like system running Postfix or Sendmail in their most common configurations, you place a file in a user's home directory named ".forward," then the MTA will not deliver messages locally but will relay them via SMTP to the address in the .forward file using the same envelope sender as the message used in its arrival. Addresses which are directed via the /etc/aliases or other 'aliasing' mechanisms ALSO are relayed using the original envelope sender. That FACT is the entire reason the SRS mechanism (and tools like postsrsd) exist. Traditional forwarding breaks SPF. Everyone involved knew this from the earliest discussions that resulted in SPF. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
Dnia 17.12.2023 o godz. 10:45:04 Benny Pedersen via mailop pisze: > >If they use forwarders, SPF will fail in the case the envelope sender > >isn't rewritten. Check your logs for that. > > false, every forwarder changes envelope sender Definitely not. Simple forwarding, as done by default by .forward file, or /etc/aliases, does not change the enevelope sender. And this method of forwarding is still the default, so it should be always considered as reference. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Merry Christmas from Google?
> That depends on the setting of the forwarder. Some organizations use > aliases for forwarding, Envelope-Sender won't change in that case > unless other rulesets change it. Yes, that is true: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1043539#88 Sincerely, Byung-Hee ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
