Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
Dear List, about the message below from L. H-S, I'll stick my neck out again: Yes, I think there is a point to the Horace misquotation of Cicero and I think it might meet the description of facetiae: it is my contention (not mine really, I just mean I agree with those who have said it) that Augustus adopted Cicero when he wanted to be seen as a good republican. The term princeps he found in Cicero's de re publica. Both Cicero and Augustus were pater patriae. Catiline is a prominent figure amongst the miscreants on Aeneas' shield. On 13 September 30 Cicero's son was made consul suffectus, so as to be in a position to announce the defeat and death of Antony in Rome. So, I would say that the Horace quotation was a gentle political allusion. Horace is saying we know, Augustus, that you are the new Cicero, qua political thinker and qua saviour of the state; qua poet, I would be a new but equally bungling Cicero if I were to try to write your praises. And since I have stuck my head above the parapet, I shall leave it there a while: Just before the passage quoted by L.H-S, Horace, addressing Augustus and contrasting Vergil and Varius , Augustus' poets, with Choerilus, Alexander's poet, and contrasting the written with the visual arts writes: at neque dedecorant tua de se iudicia atque munera quae multa dantis cum laude tulerunt dilecti tibi Vergilius Variusque poetae; nec magis expressi uultus per aenea signa quam per uatis opus mores animique uirorum clarorum apparent. There are some who will say that AENEA SIGNA just happens to sound like AENEAS, the hero of Vergil's poem and avatar of Augustus. Of their number I am not. I shall now take cover. Yours, yn - Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:42 + To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Indeed; there is a parallel in Horace's _recusatio_ to Augustus at _Epist._ 2.1/250-7: I would much rather write an epic in your honour than these earth-bound _sermones_ if I had the talent. nec sermones ego mallem 250 repentes per humum quam res componere gestas terrarumque situs et flumina dicere et arces montibus impositas et barbara regna tuisque auspiciis totum confecta duella per orbem claustraque custodem pacis cohibentia Ianum 255 et formidatam Parthis te principe Romam, si quantum cuperem possem quoque. Hands up anyone who can say what verse 255 reminds him or her off. Yes, that's right, Cicero's infamous line O fortunatam natam me consule Romam. Subversion? A sly but friendly jest? Inadvertence? Or was _O fortunatam_ not yet the stock example of bad verse it had become by Silver times? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: REPLY REQUIRED: The Classics Pages Subscription Veri
thanks for letting me join. riff Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:07:33 -0500 (EST) From: Kimberly Tate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: REPLY REQUIRED: The Classics Pages Subscription Verify (fwd) To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kimberly Tate [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Forwarded message -- Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:32:00 + From: ListBot Verifier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: REPLY REQUIRED: The Classics Pages Subscription Verify Thank you for your request to join a ListBot list! YOU MUST REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO JOIN THE LIST. == Simply reply with a blank message to join. == The list owner has included the following welcome message: === Welcome to the Classics Pages Mailing list! I hope to be sending out a letter about once a fortnight, with details of recent updates or additions to the site: and perhaps occasionally to direct attention to some old, but possibly neglected part of the site. Have you tried the Oedipus Game? (http://www.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/oedipus/oedipusindex.htm) Have you found any bugs ot typos? Thanks for joining, and hope to keep in touch. Andrew === This verification message is used to confirm that we are able to send you mail, and protects you in case someone forges a subscription request in your name. If you believe this was a forged subscription request, ignore this message and you will not be added to the mailing list. If you are having problems using the reply function in your e-mail client, the address to respond to is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please visit http://www.listbot.com/ if you have more questions about the ListBot service. Thanks! Sincerely, The ListBot Team Part of the LinkExchange family at http://www.linkexchange.com/ --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Why is Aeneas like Berenice's lock?
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:54:42 -0500 (EST) From: Jim O'Hara [EMAIL PROTECTED] Two comments below on the Thornton idea about Catullus 66 and Aeneid 6: Simon Cauchi wrote: It's nearly 40 years since Agathe H. F. Thornton wrote her article, A Catullan Quotation in Virgil's Aeneid Book VI, AUMLA 17 (1962), 77-9. She argues that there is no incongruity because the Catullan line, if properly read, is not at all humorous, and Fletcher's reference to Pope is ill-considered: [much deleted...] Whether Catullus found cause to smile at this line is hard to decide, but not important, because he was translating, not composing himself. This is just wrong. Catullus was both translating, and composing, and is responsible for every syllable and every nuance in his own poem. The corresponding Greek line could not possibly have been humrous in the Alexandrine original, because such humour would have been most irreverent from a poet to his queen. This is wrong too. Alexandrian poets (as we have learned in rather more detail since 1962) were often very playful even when dealing with kings and queens. Much of the rest of the argument, about sorrow etc., is good. Where have I read about how the queen laments the absence of her brother/lover-husband, and that Catullus elsewhere laments the loss of his brother and the (different type of) loss of his lover? Clausen? Scott? Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: sicque/quicquid
RANDI C ELDEVIK wrote: It's a bit hard for me to believe that the -cqu- combination would have been considered difficult to pronounce, when that very combination is what resulted when prefixes such as ad were added to words beginning with qu-. For example, ad + quiescere = acquiescere. That kind of assimilation was done for greater ease in pronunciation. Evidently sicque was avoided by classical poets, but it can't have been because of difficulty of pronunciation. I think this must be right. And we should remember that even dysphony has its place. throughout this discussion a line from the Georgics has been ringing (or clanging) in my ears: et quid quaeque ferat regio et quid quaeque recuset (1.53) No -cqu- here, but -d qu- twice, and an insistent alliteration of a very percussive sound. I consider it one of the hardest lines in Vergil to read aloud (it's almost a tongue-twister), and I find it difficult to believe that his Roman readers didn't consider it harsh-sounding. Why did he do it? One possible reason: he wants to recall the rugged, repetitive prosody of Lucretius, and may even be combining a pair of Lucretian lines into one: et quid quaeque queant per foedera naturai quid porro nequeant sancitum quandoquidem exstat (drn 1.586-7) To bring in the other thread on jokes, I can't help but think that Vergil enjoyed writing this outrageous line and expected to raise a smile among readers who were on to his game. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
