Re: VIRGIL: Re: a modern Virgil

1999-05-03 Thread Dan Knauss
See Gareth Reeves' _T. S. Eliot: A Virgilian Poet_  (New York: St. Martin's
Press, 1989). Reeves references much of Eliot's own writing about Virgil,
especially Eliot's book,  _What is a Classic?_ and Eliot's essays, "What is
a Classic?" (1944) and "Virgil and the Christian World" (1951), both
reprinted in _On Poetry and Poets_. Eliot and the Virgil tradition through
Dante is heavily (but rather disparagingly) discussed in Duncan F.
Kennedy's "Modern receptions and their interpretive implications" in the
_Cambridge Companion to Virgil_. Kennedy cites other sources that will be
of use, such as Ziolkowski's _Vitrgil and the Moderns_ (Princeton, 1993).
See also Davie, Donald.  "Virgil's Presence in Ezra Pound and Others."
Virgil in a Cultural Tradition: Essays to Celebrate the Bimillenium.
Richard A. Cardwell and Janet Hamilton, eds. University of Nottingham
Monographs in the Humanities, IV.  Nottingham: University of Nottingham,
1986. I think Hart Crane, Wallace Stevens, and William Carlos Williams
could also be looked at from the standpoint of the Pastoral tradition and
also as poets reacting against Eliot's starkness and "cold pastoral."

Here's a chunk of a graduate seminar paper I did in 1996 on the subject of
Virgil, Eliot, Stevens and Crane + a little Williams. It explains a couple
of the sources I've listed above.

--
Early critics of Eliot recognized his associations with Virgil.  W. F.
Jackson Knight's Roman Vergil, published in 1944 by Faber and Faber with
Eliot's help, was the first.  Frank Kermode's review of Eliot's On Poetry
and Poets in 1958 and The Classic: Literary Images of Permanence and
Change.  (New York: Viking Press, 1975) made other comparisons as did Hugh
Kenner's "The Urban Apocalypse" (in Eliot in His Time: Essays on the
Occasion of the Fiftieth Anniversary of 'The Waste Land.'  A. Walton Litz,
ed.  Princeton and London: Princeton University press and Oxford University
Press, 1973  33-79), yet subsequent critics who have been more removed from
Eliot and his circle have made new observations.  Donald Davie writes that
"Eliot is still the massive figure that must be circumvented if we are to
see Virgil as having exerted a powerful influence on our modern poetry in
ways more partial, devious, and oblique than Eliot allowed for" (134-35).
The Eliot of Four Quartets insists that Virgil is, "above all, the author
of the Fourth Eclogue, the pagan poet who prophesied Christianity, whose
vision of human history must accordingly be seen as completed and
vindicated by the Divine Comedy" (Davie, 134-35).   However, Gareth Reeves
corroborates Davie's view that Eliot's adventist "Virgilian-Dantesque
perspective," mediated as it is through Eliot's later religious, political,
and cultural designs "is in danger of making Virgil sound irrelevant as a
poetic influence, and even, in its political dimension," (Reeves, 4) "not
just useless but dangerous" (Davie, 134-35).  Reeves contends 

"that Eliot's later and influential view of Virgil has obscured a Virgilian
presence, not only in other poets, but in Eliot's own poetry of the first
half of his life, pre-eminently in The Waste Land.  This earlier presence
represents a different version of Virgil, not moderated by Dante, not
Virgilian-Dantesque, but on the contrary, one that questions the Dantean,
Christianised version, and that reinforces The Waste Land's darkly
apocalyptic aspect in opposition to any Dantean intimations of St.
Augustine's ideal City" (7).

Reeves' formulation of Eliot's "Virgilian method," is based on Eliot's
profound historical sense manifested in his poetry as a consistent usage of
"forward or backward-looking words or phrases" (4) (Reeves borrows and
elaborates on this observation from E. J. Stormon's essay, "Virgil and the
Modern Poet," Meanjin, 6 (1947): 13-14).

Thus "Eliot's poetry mobilises at a verbal level what he heard in Virgil;
its Virgilian echoes work through language and not archetypal patterns,
even if these can be identified after the fact" (4).  In this vein Eliot's
Virgilian ideal, with its acute historical awareness, had its greatest
influence on modern poetry.  Specifically, Hart Crane's reaction was to
Eliot's early Virgilian pessimism while Stevens' was to the later
Christianized and adventist Virgilian-Dantesque Eliot.  




At 06:51 AM 5/3/1999 -0500, David Wilson-Okamura wrote:
>Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:48:43 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Ozymandias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Since both state-sponsored poetry and national epic are essentially dead
>forms, a modern poet similar to Virgil would be difficult to find.  In
>American history, Robert Frost and Walt Whitman come to mind, but neither
>really got past to "pastoral" stage of the poet's career, as modelled by
>Virgil. Both, though are considered to be national poets.
>
>If you are willing to go back to the 17th century, Milton would be an
>excellent comparison, especially since he stands as the inheri

VIRGIL: THE MODERN EPIC HERO

1999-05-03 Thread Yvan Nadeau
Dear Mantovanists,

somebody suggested the hero of the film noir as the modern epic hero. 
 I would tend to agree with the general line, but would suggest James 
Bond - the James Bond of the novels rather than of the films.

Yours,

yn
Yvan Nadeau
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0131-650-3575

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Re: VIRGIL: (no subject)

1999-05-03 Thread M W Hughes
I keep on thinking that the 'epic energy' of these days has been
transferred, for good or ill, to films.  There may be some point in
examining modern conceptions of political heroism in the Star Wars or
James Bond cycles.  Not that I can think of a modern fictional character,
depicted in any medium, who operates in a political world and really 
matches the complexity and humanity of Odysseus or Aeneas.  I think that
some such characters, heroes constantly in danger of becoming antiheroes,
do emerge in the film noir genre - and presumably in the underlying 'serie
noire' novels.  These stories tend to be full of political allegory but to
be set against an overtly unpolitical background of 'mean streets'.
Perhaps they are our version of minor epic, 'epyllion', able to explore
a flawed character who is not a political leader but belongs in the
ordinary world, like V's Aristaeus.  He (much less often she) is able to
visit extraordinary places, find some inner resources and have a chance of
doing some good. - Martin Hughes

On Mon, 3 May 1999, Betty Gabriel-Jones wrote:

> At 21:09 2/05/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >I was trying to make a modern day comparison with a writer/poet to 
> >Virgil. I am having difficulty.
> 
> If it is epic that you are interested in look at any of the modern epic
> writers, from Tolkien to Eddings.  Look at the way that the common themes
> of the epic recur - the journey, the temptations to be overcome, the
> relationship with the gods or supernatural (reduced to a vague mysticism in
> some cases) the magic or holy artifacts - Virgil's shield, Bilbo' ring -
> and the culminating gathering of the forces of good and evil in a final
> battle. Poets are harder, and it depends on what you call modern - there's
> Tennyson's Morte d'Arthur, but thats C19th.  
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> >
> 
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VIRGIL: Re: a modern Virgil

1999-05-03 Thread David Wilson-Okamura
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:48:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ozymandias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Since both state-sponsored poetry and national epic are essentially dead
forms, a modern poet similar to Virgil would be difficult to find.  In
American history, Robert Frost and Walt Whitman come to mind, but neither
really got past to "pastoral" stage of the poet's career, as modelled by
Virgil. Both, though are considered to be national poets.

If you are willing to go back to the 17th century, Milton would be an
excellent comparison, especially since he stands as the inheritor of much
of Virgil's poetic legacy.  I suppose one would have to go back to Dante
to find another comparison, but he is hardly modern.  Good Luck!

Sincerely,
Evan Leatherwood
Yale University

On Sun, 2 May 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I was trying to make a modern day comparison with a writer/poet to 
> Virgil. I am having difficulty.
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