Re: VIRGIL: and Dante

1999-09-16 Thread RANDI C ELDEVIK


On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, david driscoll wrote: 
> 3. The Teutonic Knights.  Well hey, who wouldn't want
> to be one?  I beleive that the question the Poles'
> Catholicism that has been cited probably refers to
> Orthodox incursions/conversions that had taken place
> in the part of Poland abutting Ukraine.  I beleive the
> knights mandate pertained to the conversion of Baltic
> pagans, and the rolling back of Orthodox influence in
> Poland.
> 
> By the bye; blaming the behavior of the Teutonic
> Knights or the Conquistadores on Vergil is a bit like
> holding Kant responsible for the Holocaust.  It makes
> for interesting grad-seminars but is a bit beneath us,
> no?   

I'm afraid I didn't make myself quite clear.  I was citing examples of a
certain arrogant attitude that can be found in the Teutonic Knights and 
the Conquistadors, among others; it is an attitude that can also be found
in the ancient Roman Empire, and in many _readings_ of Virgil's Aeneid all
the way up to the 20th century.  I am _not_ arguing for some crude
cause-and-effect relationships.  I do think Virgil has been _used_ in
support of aggressive and oppressive incursions of various kinds over the
past two millennia.
 This all started off in response to someone who assumed that recent
readings of Virgil as a sensitive, compassionate soul with moral qualms
about imperialism were present also in the minds of past readers, and
could account for the linkage between Virgil and medieval Christianity (as
though the medieval Church was always kind and gentle).  I was trying to
explain that such an outlook (toward Christianity or toward the
_Aeneid_) was uncommon in earlier times.  That's all.
Randi Eldevik
Oklahoma State University

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VIRGIL: Tutor

1999-09-16 Thread aa 0011
Hi,
Does any one on this list know an English Literature teacher(female) in the 
UAE?

If you do, please contact me off the list--e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you,
__
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Re: VIRGIL: and Dante

1999-09-16 Thread Simon Cauchi
>> [--What is the problem with calling the Teutonic Knights a military order
>> of monks?  That's what they were, weren't they?]
>
>good morning. Are you sure, they were monks? Templar-knights, Maltesians and
>knights of the ordo domus etc. were not monks in the classical sense: they
>were
>married often, they were knights

I'm not a medieval historian, but have read a bit about the Knights of
Malta (the Order of St John). They weren't monks in any ordinary sense of
the word. They took vows of chastity and obedience, but not poverty. They
were very wealthy and worldly, and though they could not marry they all had
their pretty Maltese mistresses. Although originally "Hospitallers" in the
Holy Land, in Malta they became a naval power, doing battle with the Turks
-- but to serve as a fighting man was not usually the ambition of those who
joined the Order. Rather, they hoped to live in some grand style as the
prior of one of the Order's estates in continental Europe.

>recent: shall the UNO "debellare superbos" in East Timor or not?

See Augustine, De Civ. Dei, Praefatio, for another reading of this line,
nothing to do with the Nunc Dimittis! (And I won't get started on East
Timor, where in all likelihood New Zealand troops will be serving quite
soon ...)

But I'm not quarrelling with the idea of a Christian Virgil. I once edited
an obscure early 17th cent. text all about how to read Aeneid 6 properly,
attending to all the many places where Virgil comes close to enunciating
Christian doctrine -- where he "roves at the truth though he hit it not
perfectly" (because he only had the light of nature to guide him, not
revealed religion).

Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: VIRGIL: Christian interpretations of Virgil - Long

1999-09-16 Thread Dr Helen Conrad
For whatever it is worth I am sending the list a part of the handbook I am
working on - apologies to Leofranc since it does not necessarily reflect,
yet his valuabke suggestions and corrections.

Hagendahl (1958 and 1967) are still the standard studies of patristic
engagement with the classics, although Courcelle (1984), while
unfortunately limited to the A, is a magnificent tool for tracing the use
of that poem through late anitquity into the early Middle Ages.   Despite
the implications of arguments in Irvine (1994), none of the commentary
collections can be identified as specifically Christian in origin, although
Philargyrius 1 and 2 and the Scholia Bernensia have been clearly worked
over by Christian scholars (see use of Orosius and Eusebius in the Scholia
Bernensia) and include comments accepting the possibility of Christain
prophetic allegory for Eclogue 4, the 'Messianic', a poem with an extensive
critical literature which can only be touched upon here.  It is possible
that these 'Christian elements' are to be referred to Philargerius,
Gaudentius and/ or Gallus - and that these commentators may represent a
circle of grammatici working in Milan.  It is also possible that the
Christian elements represent later Insular extrapolations from Patristic
sources.  Courcelle (1957) is still the fullest and most balanced study of
the patristic reaction to this text.
Christian engagement with Vergil had two sources: first, his
pre-eminent position in the literary culture and educational system of the
Latin speaking areas of the empire; second, the apparent prophecy of Christ
in the fourth Eclogue.  It is possible that the second source proceeds as
much from the first source as from any apparent shared imagery of Isaiah
and Vergil.  The attention lavished on Eclogue 4 is connected to Vergil's
pre-eminence as not merely 'the poet', but 'the poet of the empire' for men
like Constantine, who delivered a Christian imperial reading of Eclogue 4
in the Oratio Constantini, and  his eldest son's tutor, Lactantius, who
compared Isaiah and the Sibylline oracles using Eclogue 4 as a framework in
his Divinae Institutiones (VII. 24, 7, CSEL 19).
Constantine the Great's nearly line by line analysis of the fourth
Eclogue, which insists on its prophetic nature, was composed originally in
Latin and delivered by the Emperor at an Easter between 325 and 337, but
survives only in a Greek translation and re-working by Eusebius as an
appendix to his life of the Emperor.  Monteleone (EV 1 913-5) drew
attention to its similarity to Lactantius: Divinae Institutiones.
Courcelle (1957 311) described Augustine as assimilating Constantine's
reading of Vergil.  Constantine suggested that the Erythraean Sibyl was
filled with the true prophetic inspiration, while (Oratio Constantini
XVIII) Vergil himself was not a prophet, but aware and committed to the
hidden meaning of his words, which, out of consideration for personal
safety and his audience's sensibilities, he had embodied in more
traditional terms.
For some scholars Jerome is the great biblical translator, for
others, the most venomous tongued man of his generation.  For students of
Vergilian commentaries, however, his claim to fame is two-fold.  First he
was the student of Aelius Donatus; second, although speaking of Vergil with
the greatest respect, calling him poeta eloquentissimus, insignis poeta,
poeta sublimis, (Holtz 1985, 9), he would have no truck with the Vergilian
fantasies of the 'muliercules' (Epistle 53. 6-7 CSEL 55).  This is unlike
Augustine, who accepted in De civitate Dei 10.27 (CCSL 47, 302-3) that
Vergil, at least, was reporting the prophetic word of the Cumaean Sibyl.
Nevertheless, Jerome had only limited effect.  Quodvultdeus in De
promissionibus et praedictionibus Dei (PL. 51) developed the essential idea
behind the Vergilian prophecy.  Isidore ensured that it could be read
across Europe in a particular light: quarum omnium carmina efferuntur in
quibus de Deo et de Christo et gentibus multa scripsisse manifestissime
conprobantur(Etym.  8.8.7).  Leopardi (EV 4, 422-3)  has noted that in the
earlier middle ages interpretation oscillated between the Christian and
Servian interpretation according to the circumstances of the moment.  One
quotation given by Leopardi (423) from the ninth century Ms Valenciennes
394 is of particular interest since it reflects the opinion and experience
of an  early medieval teacher-commentator in the early middle ages:

Volunt quidam ad Christianos referri et nouum saeculum sub nouo testamento
per Christum dominum ex Maria uirgine natum renouatum.  Unde beatus
Augustinus in quadam homelia hunc uersum 'iam noua progenies caelo
dimititur alto' de Christo predictum asseuerat.  Licet sanctus Hieronimus
hoc penitus neget, quia iuxta Pauli uocem misterium ab initio saeculi
absconditum nemo principium huius mundi cognovit quod in fine saeculi per
filium suum Deus pater ostendit.

Allegory in the Vergilian comme