Re: VIRGIL: Re: Greek origins of the Irish?
Dear Sylvia I was unaware of (and tantalised by) this idea of Greek origins for the Irish, but it is an interesting parallel to their alleged Scythian (from Nennius onwards) and later Carthaginian origins (notably Charles Vallancey in the 18th century 'proving' the link by the 'similarities' of Punic in Plautus' Poenulus with Irish), both of which were used at different times in very different ways by the Irish themselves, and others, to contrast with the first Trojan, and then Roman British. Interesting on this and its resonance in 20th century Irish literature is Elizabeth Cullingford in PMLA 111 (1996) 222-39. A little off the point, I'm afraid, but hopefully of interest. Regards Bob From: "Sylvia Federico" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Greek origins of the Irish? Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:30:49 GMT0BST Dear Virgilians, I hope this inquiry isn't too tangential for this list... I am looking at how the Troy story was invoked in later medieval Irish adaptations of Virgil and Dares, and recently came across an assertion that puzzles me. Stanford, in his _Ireland and the Classical Tradition_, maintains that the Irish "were encouraged to see themselves as descended from the Greeks" (as opposed to the Roman or Trojan origins claimed by the English and the French), but does not supply specific bibliography to support this. Does anyone happen to know anything about the supposed Greek origins of the Irish, or know where I might look to find out more about this? Many thanks in advance! --Sylvia Sylvia Federico School of English University of Leeds Leeds LS2 9JT 0113-233-4769 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Turnus ~ Mark Antony?
Another possible angle could be the destruction of alternative routes which Rome could take. Just as the different aspects of Dido are refracted and split into Amata and Lavinia, so that the former can be safely isolated and destroyed, while the latter remains as a tabula rasa for the imprint of imperial destiny, so the duality of Aeneas in Carthage - pius Octavian or decadent Antony - can be split into an Augustan Aeneas whose Antonine qualities are displaced onto Turnus and safely eliminated. Or maybe I'm getting carried away... Bob From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Turnus ~ Mark Antony? Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:28:50 -0500 While getting up a lecture on Shakespeare's _Antony and Cleopatra_ a month or so ago, I happened to notice that there are several references to a duel between Antony and Octavian. The duel never comes off, of course, but according to Plutarch (Shakespeare's primary source for the play), Mark Anthony _did_ challenge Octavian to single combat before the battle of Actium. My question is this: could this challenge have some bearing on the single combat at the end of the Aeneid? Is Turnus, in some sense, Mark Anthony? Servius mentions Mark Anthony several times in his commentary; at no point, however, does he suggest (and now I'm getting to my real point) that Mark Anthony = Turnus. Which, I suppose, shows that Servius wasn't totally crackers. But what do you think? If you buy into the idea that there is _some_ historical allegory in the Aeneid, might not the duel with Turnus represent a climactic moment in the career of Augustus? If so, which one? Anthony's defeat at Actium? Or has Virgil taken it upon himself to represent Actium in such a way as to give Octavian credit for the duel that never fought, as if to say, "he could have done it, even though he didn't"? One other point in favor of the loose Anthony = Turnus equation I'm proposing here: they are both very sexy, very romantic, and very doomed. I am not suggesting that the duel can't be other things as well (including itself). I don't think we should be put off, though, by the idea that Virgil might be using a single combat to represent a battle that was actually fought by large armies or navies. Think, for instance, of the battle between Prince Arthur and the Souldan in Faerie Queene book 5: in the fiction of the poem, it's just two guys fighting; but it's also a transparent allegory for the defeat of the Spanish Armada. Did Spenser get the idea from the end of the Aeneid? That's harder to say, though Michael O'Connell (in Mirror and Veil: The Historical Dimension of Spenser's Faerie Queene) has argued persuasively, I think, that Spenser's historical allegory is modeled on the practice of Virgil as expounded by Servius... But I've gone on far too long. What think ye? --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Dido -----> Desdemona?
I suspect you _are_ out on a limb, though it's a very attractive one, and Marlowe's Dido - if not Virgil's - must have been fresh in the memory. I guess it depends whether one traces any similarities to the source - an Italian novella, if I remember right - or Shakespeare's treatment of it. If the said limb can bear a little more weight, might one note that Dido is repeatedly 'infelix', while Othello's wife is also - etymologically - unfortunate, 'dysdaimon'? Just a thought Bob From: "Ambros Hieronymus Prechtl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Dido -> Desdemona? Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:42:51 -0400 The intriguing similarity of Dido falling in love with Aeneas as he tells his story and Desdemona falling in love with Othello as he tells his story -- I am sure people have noticed it but has anyone written about it? We have two strangers, heroes both of them, who have travelled far, encountered many adventures and faced many horrid dangers. There is something in the setting of each woman that argues against their falling in love and yet they do fall in love.. And both ended up dead after only a short period of happiness, both killed by their husbands: Desdemona directly and Dido indirectly, her man Aeneas [who] praebuit et causam mortis et ensem : Though Shakespeare may have had little Latin, he knew more than most people alive then of Greek mythology and ancient history and literature. It would be quite unreasonable to assume that he did not know the story of Dido. Any opinion on this anyone? Am I out on a limb? Ambros --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub _ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
