Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
Dear List, about the message below from L. H-S, I'll stick my neck out again: Yes, I think there is a point to the Horace misquotation of Cicero and I think it might meet the description of facetiae: it is my contention (not mine really, I just mean I agree with those who have said it) that Augustus adopted Cicero when he wanted to be seen as a good republican. The term princeps he found in Cicero's de re publica. Both Cicero and Augustus were pater patriae. Catiline is a prominent figure amongst the miscreants on Aeneas' shield. On 13 September 30 Cicero's son was made consul suffectus, so as to be in a position to announce the defeat and death of Antony in Rome. So, I would say that the Horace quotation was a gentle political allusion. Horace is saying we know, Augustus, that you are the new Cicero, qua political thinker and qua saviour of the state; qua poet, I would be a new but equally bungling Cicero if I were to try to write your praises. And since I have stuck my head above the parapet, I shall leave it there a while: Just before the passage quoted by L.H-S, Horace, addressing Augustus and contrasting Vergil and Varius , Augustus' poets, with Choerilus, Alexander's poet, and contrasting the written with the visual arts writes: at neque dedecorant tua de se iudicia atque munera quae multa dantis cum laude tulerunt dilecti tibi Vergilius Variusque poetae; nec magis expressi uultus per aenea signa quam per uatis opus mores animique uirorum clarorum apparent. There are some who will say that AENEA SIGNA just happens to sound like AENEAS, the hero of Vergil's poem and avatar of Augustus. Of their number I am not. I shall now take cover. Yours, yn - Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:42 + To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Indeed; there is a parallel in Horace's _recusatio_ to Augustus at _Epist._ 2.1/250-7: I would much rather write an epic in your honour than these earth-bound _sermones_ if I had the talent. nec sermones ego mallem 250 repentes per humum quam res componere gestas terrarumque situs et flumina dicere et arces montibus impositas et barbara regna tuisque auspiciis totum confecta duella per orbem claustraque custodem pacis cohibentia Ianum 255 et formidatam Parthis te principe Romam, si quantum cuperem possem quoque. Hands up anyone who can say what verse 255 reminds him or her off. Yes, that's right, Cicero's infamous line O fortunatam natam me consule Romam. Subversion? A sly but friendly jest? Inadvertence? Or was _O fortunatam_ not yet the stock example of bad verse it had become by Silver times? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes More humour in Vergil invitus, regina, tuo de litore cessi (Bk 6) reference to Catullus' Lock of Berenice invitus, regina, tuo de cervice cessi, a singularly incongruous intertextualism at a singularly inapposite moment. I have always thought invitus, regina to be as bad as W. S. Gilbert's a thing of shreds and patches. But a closer analogy would be if The Yeoman of the Guard were an Elizabethan operetta and Hamlet a 19th cent. tragedy, so that we would find fault with Shakespeare's line rather than Gilbert's. Or rather, as Fletcher puts it better, the sense of incongruity is much as we should feel if we came upon a line from Pope's Rape of the Lock in Keats' Hyperion. I don't think Virgil intended the line to be humorous, though. Despite the source from which it is taken, the effect is pathetic (I mean, pathos is the intended effect). Isn't it? Aeneas does express a sense of desperation in this speech, and there's always something a bit ridiculous about any male -- let alone an epic hero -- making excuses and vowing he had no choice in the matter. But I suspect there is a bimillennial cultural gulf here (as in so much else to do with the Aeneid), and that interpretation is necessarily uncertain. Indeed; there is a parallel in Horace's _recusatio_ to Augustus at _Epist._ 2.1/250-7: I would much rather write an epic in your honour than these earth-bound _sermones_ if I had the talent. nec sermones ego mallem 250 repentes per humum quam res componere gestas terrarumque situs et flumina dicere et arces montibus impositas et barbara regna tuisque auspiciis totum confecta duella per orbem claustraque custodem pacis cohibentia Ianum 255 et formidatam Parthis te principe Romam, si quantum cuperem possem quoque. Hands up anyone who can say what verse 255 reminds him or her off. Yes, that's right, Cicero's infamous line O fortunatam natam me consule Romam. Subversion? A sly but friendly jest? Inadvertence? Or was _O fortunatam_ not yet the stock example of bad verse it had become by Silver times? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
This was a joke that had already been made in Aristophanes' Frogs with reference to Heracles crossing the Styx on Charon's boat. More humour in Vergil invitus, regina, tuo de litore cessi (Bk 6) reference to Catullus' Lock of Berenice invitus, regina, tuo de cervice cessi, a singularly incongruous intertextualism at a singularly inapposite moment. -Original Message- From: Simon Cauchi [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 6:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes Aeneid 6.413 ingentem Aenean prompted Austin to write: Virgil smiles at the thought of the big solid man taken on board the flimsy craft, a most unghostly passenger. I remember also finding a good deal of amusement in the funeral games of Book 5, which I read in Dryden's translation. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
More humour in Vergil invitus, regina, tuo de litore cessi (Bk 6) reference to Catullus' Lock of Berenice invitus, regina, tuo de cervice cessi, a singularly incongruous intertextualism at a singularly inapposite moment. I have always thought invitus, regina to be as bad as W. S. Gilbert's a thing of shreds and patches. But a closer analogy would be if The Yeoman of the Guard were an Elizabethan operetta and Hamlet a 19th cent. tragedy, so that we would find fault with Shakespeare's line rather than Gilbert's. Or rather, as Fletcher puts it better, the sense of incongruity is much as we should feel if we came upon a line from Pope's Rape of the Lock in Keats' Hyperion. I don't think Virgil intended the line to be humorous, though. Despite the source from which it is taken, the effect is pathetic (I mean, pathos is the intended effect). Isn't it? Aeneas does express a sense of desperation in this speech, and there's always something a bit ridiculous about any male -- let alone an epic hero -- making excuses and vowing he had no choice in the matter. But I suspect there is a bimillennial cultural gulf here (as in so much else to do with the Aeneid), and that interpretation is necessarily uncertain. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer Hamilton, New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
