Re: VIRGIL: question
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert T. White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes LH-S scripsit: A few years ago our listowner (I think) posted some interesting comments about the strength and weaknesses of Dryden's version; unfortunately I cannot find them now. I was struck by his rendering of Aen. 6. 651-8: Dulces exuuiae, dum fata deusque sinebat, accipite hanc animam meque his exsoluite curis. Vixi et quem dederat cursum Fortuna peregi, et nunc magna mei sub terras ibit imago. Urbem praeclaram statui, mea moenia uidi, ulta uirum poenas inimico a fratre recepi; felix, heu nimium felix, si litora tantum numquam Dardaniae tetigissent nostra carinae. This is Book 4, I think... Oops! Lapsus digiti. LAH-S *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
Regarding the Dryden Translation: The aesthetic qualities of a good English translation, even an inaccurate one, represent more accurately the qualities of the poetic qualities of the original, viewed in its totality. I am reminded of the tributes to Virgil's poetic eloquence found in Dante's Comedy and in Tennyson's poem on Virgil (the stateliest measure . . ..). Concurring with that praise, I have little sympathy with translations of Virgil which are pedantically correct but lifeless and pedestrian. Likewise judged by the standards of poetry, we might compare the King James translation of the Twenty-third Psalm, with a more recent but less beautiful translation such as that of the New American Bible. The first is awe-inspiring and luminously beautiful, while the second leaves me cold. Come to think of it, what attracted me initially to the present website was the web-published translation by Dr. Wilson of the Aeneid's epitaph on the death of Palinurus. His rendition was exquisitely beautiful, and in my opinion even better than the Dryden translation of the same passage. (I have often wondered, incidentally, whether the same author had published a translation of the entire Aeneid. If so, and if he maintained throughout the quality of his Palinurus passage, his would be the best translation available.) Similar truth-versus-beauty distinctions occur in regard to Dante. There are many highly accurate translations of the Comedy, but I know of only one which rises to the level of great poetry, that of the distinguished American poet, John Ciardi. And I would be remiss if I did not also mention the comparative merits of the many accurate, but uninspiring, translations of Ovid's Metamorphoses, in contrast to the delightful poetry of he Horace Gregory translation. It is elementary learning that much is lost in translation, but from my point of view -- that of a general reader and an avid fan of classical literature -- it would be better to sacrifice the semantic precision of some of the more recent translations to the poetic charm of the Dryden translation. George Brunelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
In Book I of Aeneid there is a reference to people of the sky (one translation) in relation to destruction of Carthage. I don't have a Latin text. How does that phrase read in Latin? I suspect the reference is to Book II and the destruction of Troy, and the phrase a translation of caelicolae (heaven-dwellers): me si caelicolae voluissent ducere vitam, has mihi servassent sedes. satis una superque vidimus excidia et captae superavimus urbi. (641-3) Translated by David West: If the gods in heaven had wished me to go on living, they would have preserved this place for me. I have already seen one sack of the city and survived its capture, and that is more than enough. (It is Anchises who speaks, or rather whose speech is reported by Aeneas.) Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lpf.org.nz/free/directory/cauchi.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
IS VIRGIL IS A MHYTH,FICTION OR A LEGEND? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Book I of Aeneid there is a reference to people of the sky (one translation) in relation to destruction of Carthage. I don't have a Latin text. How does that phrase read in Latin? Joan Lepley --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
P. Vergilius Maro is a Roman author, a poet, a real historical person. VIRGIL SUNPAYCO schrieb: IS VIRGIL IS A MHYTH,FICTION OR A LEGEND? the email adress of this anonymus (or pseudonymus) has the nazi symbol 88 Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/hansz.htm Latein/Griechisch und Ethik/Philosophie auf dem Sächsischen Schulserver http://marvin.sn.schule.de/~latein/index.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
Against the Tiber's mouth, but far away, An ancient town was seated on the sea; A Tyrian colony; the people made Stout for the war, and studious of their trade: Carthage the name; belov'd by Juno more Than her own Argos, or the Samian shore. Here stood her chariot; here, if Heav'n were kind, The seat of awful empire she design'd. Yet she had heard an ancient rumor fly, (Long cited by the people of the sky,) That times to come should see the Trojan race Her Carthage ruin, and her tow'rs deface; I was thinking of the indented parenthesized allusion=from Book I===Is it the same? Thank you for your reply--hoping you can find this other reference for me (in Latin). Joan in Portland --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
This seems to be somebody's diseased, poetic conception Rather harsh? Provided you read Dryden's rendering as a poem not a crib it has considerable merits snip [The phrase People of the Sky] is a calque on _caelicolae_. From whom else should Juno hear rumours from her fellow skydwellers? It is the gods who report that the Fates are so contriving (sic uoluere Parcas, accusative and infinitive.) What is 'diseased' about that? It is what translators do all the time, make explicit what is merely implicit in the original; of course, critics then object either that in doing so they have lost a subtlety, or that it isn't actually implicit after all, but is either objection in place here? If there is fault to find, it is rather that the line adds nothing but a rhyme; but it is virtually impossible to writea rhymed transaltion without admitting some such verses. I'm delighted to read these words, and would add only that Dryden's expansion here of one Latin word into an English couplet is done with great skill, echoing similar passages in the poem where Virgil does use the word caelicolae; in other words, the translator's poetic licence is guided by deep familiarity with Virgil's poem and with his characteristic modes of expression. A few years ago our listowner (I think) posted some interesting comments about the strength and weaknesses of Dryden's version; unfortunately I cannot find them now. I wonder if you are thinking of these words cited from an article by Jasper Griffin in the TLS (17 May 1991): A great English poet translated the greatest work of Latin literature. Dryden knew Latin, he had an eminent command of English, his mind moved naturally in tune with the rhetoric of the Latin poets; his version is inimitable in its energy, brilliance, panache. It is, of course, now separated from us by 300 years, and the ability to read it with pleasure is perhaps hardly as widespread even as the ability to enjoy the original. It is also very unlike the original in two obvious respects. Dryden's rhyming couplets break up the varied rhythms of Virgil into a uniform movement; and the hard cast of his mind, his deficiency in tenderness, deprives Virgil of many of his most individual notes. But still: there are moments, I think, when poetry into prose won't go, and one example from Dryden can illustrate that. (Griffin goes on to quote West's and Dryden's translations of Aeneid 6: 882-9.) Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lpf.org.nz/free/directory/cauchi.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question on Virgil's intent
M W Hughes wrote: Epic, I suppose, was and in some ways still is regarded as the supreme art form, though these days we have lost the art of epic poetry and resort to other genres, particularly film. It's supposed to offer the widest possibilities for the unfolding of a story, for the relationship between desires, plans and results to be explored and therefore for divine providence, if there is such a thing, to be interrogated. It commonly sets personal stories (Hector and Andromache) against the background of great events. Thus the greatest challenge to a creative mind is the writing of a great epic. If you want to write a great epic your work must bear comparison with the greatest, which in Virgil's time and to some extent now means Homer's works. For Virgil the challenge was to adapt Homer's ideas about strife, heroism and good government for his own generation and to the extraordinary Roman predicament - extraordinary because it combined world power with civil war. There was also the challenge to Homer offered by Plato, who thinks that Homer brings religion into disrepute, and by Epicurus and Lucretius, who think that Homer's powwer as a poet is the main thing which still keeps religion/superstition alive. There is also the question raised by Homer himself about whether poets are liars and whether they can contribute to the reconstitution of shattered societies. - Martin Hughes On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Erica A Sommerville wrote: To Whomever desires to reply, I have begun to heavily research Virgil for a research project I have coming up. I'm very excited about this but I like to get ideas on why Virgil wrote so many passages in his Aeneid that paralleled Homer's works. I'm going to look myself at the texts for the specific passages and their importance to his influence, but I would like ideas on this particular topic. Thank you! Sincerely, Erica --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub To any and all: What does modern historical scholarship tell us about who the Trojans were? To what ethnic group, or groups, did they belong? What, if anything, do we know (or think we know) about their language? Sincerely, Greg Farnum --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
