Re: [Bulk] Re: Markdown development
> See this: http://github.github.com/github-flavored-markdown/ > > I think their assumptions about newlines is way off. I don't know about their assumptions but I do know that I prefer that behaviour and it was one of the first departures I made from Markdown syntax. When I insert a newline in my text, I mean for it to remain. I don't hard wrap my e-mail or other text. The fixed-width character column can be useful but the paradigm is also brittle and pernicious; better to make things work without it because it smells really bad too. ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
In article <20100306064636.ga17...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, John MacFarlane wrote: >./markdown -V >markdown: discount 1.6.2 >./markdown >`hi` >`hi` > >But you should get: > >hi > >--at least according to the reference implementation (and most >others). Backslashes don't escape `s inside code spans. Backslash? Wait, is that ^A I see supposed to be the character 01h or a backslash? -david parsons ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
+++ david parsons [Mar 06 10 04:33 ]: > In article <20100306020548.gb...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, > John MacFarlane wrote: > > >`a` > > > >should render as > > > >a > > > >but discount (at least the version on babelmark) renders it as > > The version on Babelmark might be a little out of date; the > 1.6 series doesn't leave that tick hanging. Although discount 1.6.2 doesn't leave the tick hanging, it's still not right, I think: ./markdown -V markdown: discount 1.6.2 ./markdown `hi\` `hi` But you should get: hi\ --at least according to the reference implementation (and most others). Backslashes don't escape `s inside code spans. John ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
> I'd like to see the community cooperate toward a specification which > addresses the shortcomings and ambiguities of Markdown (even if it > need be released under a new name). Not a spec for Markdown itself, but for a superset of Markdown: http://kramdown.rubyforge.org/syntax.html I tried to address most ambiguities, especially in list parsing. -- Thomas ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:10 PM, david parsons wrote: > In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, > John MacFarlane wrote: >>Currently big players like reddit and github >>use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's >>official specification; > > Okay, I'm curious. Since I'm the writer of the "forms of markdown" > that reddit and github use, just exactly where does discount depart > significantly from JG's official specification? See this: http://github.github.com/github-flavored-markdown/ I think their assumptions about newlines is way off. But otherwise, the additions they added make sense in the context of that site. -- \X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\| Waylan Limberg ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
In article <20100306020548.gb...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, John MacFarlane wrote: >`a` > >should render as > >a > >but discount (at least the version on babelmark) renders it as The version on Babelmark might be a little out of date; the 1.6 series doesn't leave that tick hanging. >`` a```a `` > >should render as > >a```a Now that's a defect all right. It looks like the reference matches any run of ticks, not just the one or two that I read from the standard. That's easy to fix. Harder if I want it to be elegant, but still easy. It will give me an excuse to release a 1.6.3 sometime next week. -david parsons ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
+++ John MacFarlane [Mar 05 10 18:05 ]: > +++ david parsons [Mar 05 10 22:10 ]: > > In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, > > John MacFarlane wrote: > > >Currently big players like reddit and github > > >use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's > > >official specification; > > > > Okay, I'm curious. Since I'm the writer of the "forms of markdown" > > that reddit and github use, just exactly where does discount depart > > significantly from JG's official specification? > > Oh, I didn't know that either of those sites used discount. > Discount is, in my experience, extremely accurate (and extremely > fast). But github uses a documented variant for some purposes > (http://github.github.com/github-flavored-markdown/), and, as for > reddit, I'm just going on my experience having posts there formatted > incorrectly. I think one context where that happened was an inline > code span with backslashes. According to John Gruber's specification, as > I understand it, > > `a\` > > should render as > > a\ > > but discount (at least the version on babelmark) renders it as > > a\` > > Similarly, > > `` a```a `` > > should render as > > a```a > > but discount renders it as > > aa Okay, looking back at the actual [spec] (http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#code), I see that it was unfair of me to suggest that discount does not satisfy it. The spec is just too vague. For example, it never says explicitly that backslash escapes don't work inside code spans (though perhaps that's implicit, since if backslash escapes worked, you wouldn't need the more complex method of using multiple-backtick delimiters). I guess my interpretation of it was influenced by seeing what Markdown.pl actually does. Indeed, in one respect, discount conforms to the spec for inline code spans better than Markdown.pl. The syntax document says: "The backtick delimiters surrounding a code span may include spaces — one after the opening, one before the closing." I'd not noticed this before, but this seems to say pretty unambiguously that there is *one* optional space at each end. Markdown.pl, and all other implementations except discount (and the most recent lunamark, which I just updated), gobble any number of spaces at the beginning and end of a code span. Test case: ` hello ` John PS. I've now fixed the problem with `` this```case `` in lunamark and peg-markdown. ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > Yuri provided some good reading, but I thought it important to point > out a specific comment by J.G. regarding the name of such a project: > > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/001189.html That's only a problem if he "despises" whatever we come up with. :-) There are certainly a few additional things I'd like to see in Markdown, but my biggest irritation is the ambiguity of the syntax. (I only recall one at the moment, but I ran into many of them while developing my implementation.) Just clarifying those places would be a huge plus. On the other hand, as has been mentioned, they only arise in fairly rare edge cases, so I might just have to live with them. It just feels *messy* with those in there. - -- Chad Nelson Oak Circle Software, Inc. * * * -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuRxVQACgkQp9x9jeZ9/wSUNACfRkZc0ARNdqY9IBod7LUE0bpD 7XMAoNCfRuaQf0J0pgPMD0S0KI/BeEQx =hTKu -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
+++ david parsons [Mar 05 10 22:10 ]: > In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, > John MacFarlane wrote: > >Currently big players like reddit and github > >use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's > >official specification; > > Okay, I'm curious. Since I'm the writer of the "forms of markdown" > that reddit and github use, just exactly where does discount depart > significantly from JG's official specification? Oh, I didn't know that either of those sites used discount. Discount is, in my experience, extremely accurate (and extremely fast). But github uses a documented variant for some purposes (http://github.github.com/github-flavored-markdown/), and, as for reddit, I'm just going on my experience having posts there formatted incorrectly. I think one context where that happened was an inline code span with backslashes. According to John Gruber's specification, as I understand it, `a\` should render as a\ but discount (at least the version on babelmark) renders it as a\` Similarly, `` a```a `` should render as a```a but discount renders it as aa (Hm, just noticed that peg-markdown and lunamark get that one wrong, too. I'll have to fix that. At least pandoc gets it right.) John ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
When I first started to write MultiMarkdown, I hoped it would become obsolete when the official markdown spec included footnotes and possibly tables. Then I added a few other features, and it also became clear that Markdown wasn't going to evolve any further in an official capacity. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. The basic markdown syntax is good. We all use it because we think it's the best markup language out there, and those of us who extended it do it because we think it would be the perfect markup language with just one or two new features That doesn't mean that the core markdown syntax needs to add those features. What I would like to see is the following: 1) Fix the syntax specification for the one or two edge cases that lead to unintentionally different outputs from various markdown implementations (e.g. nested lists). It would be nice to have a stamp of approval from Gruber on this part 2) Develop an opt-in "consortium" or whatever that would allow the most common add-on features (e.g. footnotes) to have a well thought out specification that could be consistent across those markdown implementations that wanted to include them. This would not be interpreted as an official "markdown 2.0" or anything like that - simply that it would be nice if the various markdown derivatives could be as cross-compatible as possible. I suspect this list of new features would be rather short - there are likely several features in MMD, for instance, that don't need to be included in other flavors (e.g. citations, asciimathml, etc) The point is that each of these variant forms of Markdown evolved to scratch someone's particular itch. It would be nice to standardize the areas that overlap, but there's no need to limit the various alternative features that are only needed by a few people. Just my $.02 F- -- Fletcher T. Penney fletc...@fletcherpenney.net ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>, John MacFarlane wrote: >Currently big players like reddit and github >use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's >official specification; Okay, I'm curious. Since I'm the writer of the "forms of markdown" that reddit and github use, just exactly where does discount depart significantly from JG's official specification? -david parsons ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
+++ Yuri Takhteyev [Mar 05 10 14:27 ]: > > I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the > > Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing > > text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it > > Markdown2 or something similar, it would be obvious that it expands on, > > and supersedes, the original Markdown. > > Required reading: > > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-February/thread.html#1021 > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-February/thread.html#1031 > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/thread.html > > Of course, there are many many other relevant threads, but this would > give you a taste. A lot has happened since early 2008. For example, we now have two implementations based on a PEG, which could serve as a basis for a formal specification of markdown's grammar: http://github.com/jgm/lunamark grammar: http://github.com/jgm/lunamark/blob/master/lunamark/parser/markdown.lua http://github.com/jgm/peg-markdown grammar: http://github.com/jgm/peg-markdown/blob/master/markdown_parser.leg (Of course, this is just my interpretation of the markdown syntax specification, which leaves a lot undecided.) The main problem is political. After following this group for several years, I'm doubtful that we'd be able to come to consensus about a grammar. Perhaps we could agree on a process, with a voting system for deciding disputed issues and a mechanism for deciding on extensions. But that's a big undertaking, and it's not clear what authority such decisions would have. Currently big players like reddit and github use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's official specification; if they're going to ignore that, then I'm guessing they'd also ignore a more detailed grammar devised by a markdown working group. John ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
In article <20100305103250714488.32875...@yahoo.co.uk>, Albert Skye wrote: >Not only is [Markdown] dead, it's starting to smell really bad. (Apologies to >Pike.) There are some hilarious edge/pathological cases which Markdown.pl doesn't get right, but for the most part it works and if the places where it doesn't work are offensive, there are literally dozens of other implementations out there that have been tweaked more recently than Markdown.pl >It's author appears to have little interest in developing the tool and >participating in the community which uses it. He's got a Perl implementation that works for him, and there are many other implementations that are basically compatable with his code & test suites. There's not much he needs to do, so why should he run around and do busywork? -david parsons ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Yuri Takhteyev wrote: >> I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the >> Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing >> text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it >> Markdown2 or something similar, it would be obvious that it expands on, >> and supersedes, the original Markdown. > > Required reading: > > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-February/thread.html#1021 > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-February/thread.html#1031 > http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/thread.html > > Of course, there are many many other relevant threads, but this would > give you a taste. > > - yuri Yuri provided some good reading, but I thought it important to point out a specific comment by J.G. regarding the name of such a project: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/001189.html If anyone wants to undertake this effort, they may say it is "inspired by markdown" but they are going to have to name is something different. I get the impression that the name "Markdown2" is not quite different enough here. There's another interesting comment he made regarding a specific markdown implementation here: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/001163.html I don't point these comments out to discourage such an effort from happening (maybe it should). However, if it does happen, imo it will either need J.G.'s blessing or will need to happen separate from this community/list. Although, I would imagine an announcement of and link to such an effort wouldn't be objectionable. Additionally, I did not point those comments out in an effort to reflect negatively on J.G. He created Markdown and is entirely entitled to such a position. I would very likely take a simple position if I was in his shoes and/or shared his opinion. Currently, my opinion regarding the need for a fork/restart/refresh is 'undecided'. -- \X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\| Waylan Limberg ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
> I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the > Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing > text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it > Markdown2 or something similar, it would be obvious that it expands on, > and supersedes, the original Markdown. Required reading: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-February/thread.html#1021 http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-February/thread.html#1031 http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/thread.html Of course, there are many many other relevant threads, but this would give you a taste. - yuri ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown development
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > I'd like to see the community cooperate toward a specification which > addresses the shortcomings and ambiguities of Markdown (even if it > need be released under a new name). I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it Markdown2 or something similar, it would be obvious that it expands on, and supersedes, the original Markdown. - -- Chad Nelson Oak Circle Software, Inc. * * * -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuRUZ8ACgkQp9x9jeZ9/wThdgCgvtogv2EWD8ooaXZAvWNUDrf0 kowAnjuoh9F9HmXJMGN3neAOauQG8AEP =72Eb -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Markdown development
Not only is [Markdown] dead, it's starting to smell really bad. (Apologies to Pike.) It's author appears to have little interest in developing the tool and participating in the community which uses it. I'd like to see the community cooperate toward a specification which addresses the shortcomings and ambiguities of Markdown (even if it need be released under a new name). ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
