Re: A Modest Definition List Proposal

[David E. Wheeler]

On Apr 13, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Michel Fortin wrote:

> 
> 
> Note that it renames "definition list" to "description list", in support for 
> the idea that it's not only for definitions.

This is great news. Thanks for passing it on (Waylan too)!

Best,

David

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Re: A Modest Definition List Proposal

[Michel Fortin]

Le 2010-04-13 à 15:21, Tom Humiston a écrit :

> Is my use of DL appropriate?

When in doubt, check HTML5 (which tend to make everything unambiguous). Here it 
says:

> The dl element represents an association list consisting of zero or more 
> name-value groups (a description list). Each group must consist of one or 
> more names (dt elements) followed by one or more values (dd elements). Within 
> a single dl element, there should not be more than one dt element for each 
> name.
> 
> Name-value groups may be terms and definitions, metadata topics and values, 
> or any other groups of name-value data.
> 
> The values within a group are alternatives; multiple paragraphs forming part 
> of the same value must all be given within the same dd element.
> 
> The order of the list of groups, and of the names and values within each 
> group, may be significant.



Note that it renames "definition list" to "description list", in support for 
the idea that it's not only for definitions.

-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.for...@michelf.com
http://michelf.com/



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Re: A Modest Definition List Proposal

[Waylan Limberg]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Tom Humiston  wrote:
> Found this unsent reply stuffed in my drafts folder...
>
> On 19 Feb 2009, at 6:48 AM, Michel Fortin wrote:
>
>> Definition lists are already some sort of specialized niche syntax within
>> Markdown and HTML: useful when you need one, but not something a lot of
>> people care for or even know it exists.
>
> Definition lists are suitable for many kinds of term/value pairings, and not
> just definitions, but I had no concept of DLs as a flexible and handy
> semantic structure until I learned CSS. CSS encourages one to consider a
> document's *structure* (its HTML elements) as separate from its
> *presentation* (the appearance of those elements).
>
> I now regularly mark up, say, each workshop in a list as a DT, with its
> details (description, cost, meeting times, contact info) as DDs. Other CSS
> users may prefer to use unordered lists or the like, and sometimes I do,
> too.
>
> Is my use of DL appropriate? According to [Russ Weakley][1]:
>

In this respect see the working draft for [html5][1]. In part is says:

> The dl element represents an association list consisting of zero or more
> name-value groups (a description list).

It's called a "description list"! They're not even called definition
lists any more. In fact, a number of examples on that page would not
fit the "definition" model, but are considered completely appropriate
for a dl.

True, markdown is currently not specifically intended at a html5 tool
(although it could be as valid html4 and valid xhtml are also valid
html5), but given that html5 is to a large extent just a spec
indicating how people and/or browsers are actually doing things, I see
it an an admission that "definition list" was a bad (too restrictive)
name for an otherwise useful feature.

[1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#the-dl-element

-- 

\X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
Waylan Limberg
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Re: A Modest Definition List Proposal

[Tom Humiston]

Found this unsent reply stuffed in my drafts folder...

On 19 Feb 2009, at 6:48 AM, Michel Fortin wrote:

Definition lists are already some sort of specialized niche syntax  
within Markdown and HTML: useful when you need one, but not  
something a lot of people care for or even know it exists.


Definition lists are suitable for many kinds of term/value pairings,  
and not just definitions, but I had no concept of DLs as a flexible  
and handy semantic structure until I learned CSS. CSS encourages one  
to consider a document's *structure* (its HTML elements) as separate  
from its *presentation* (the appearance of those elements).


I now regularly mark up, say, each workshop in a list as a DT, with  
its details (description, cost, meeting times, contact info) as DDs.  
Other CSS users may prefer to use unordered lists or the like, and  
sometimes I do, too.


Is my use of DL appropriate? According to [Russ Weakley][1]:

There are two points of view about the use of definition lists. Some  
people believe that definition lists should only be used for terms  
and definitions. Others believe that definition lists can be used to  
tie together any items that have a direct relationship with each  
other (name/value sets). This second point of view is supported by  
an example within the W3C specifications:


Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up  
dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing  
his or her words.



Although some people disagree with this example, it does suggest  
that definition lists can be used for more than simple terms and  
definitions, as long as there is a direct relationship between the  
items. [List of examples follows.]


[1]: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/articles/definition/
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