Re: Responsive images and markdown

[Sherwood Botsford]

You got it.

I ran it by here to check to see if someone had already invented this
particular wheel.

I work *really* hard to keep content and presentation separate.  You can
easily get so wrapped up in tweaking presentation.

So my presentation is all done with CSS.  My only concession are the 
tags that modify the flow.  So:

.picfull is 95% of the container wide.  Used for a banner pic at the top of
the page, or at the foot of the page, sometimes used as a section separator
on a long page.
.pic, pic3, pic6 are 40%, 30% and 60% of the container width, and float
left.  picr, pic3r and pic6r do the same for the right.

I do have to be careful to not put two that float on the same side too
close together, or they stack up.  When that happens, I just move them both
into the same 

Nearly everything is sized in rem or in percentages.  Makes for a
reasonably responsive website.

But I'm finding that a LOT of my web traffic is coming from mobile devices.
(about 40%)  Given that my web site is marginal for a mobile phone in
portrait, I need to make two signficant upgrades.

One is to deliver smaller/more tightly cropped images to mobile devices.

The other is to come up with a cleaner menu on mobile devices.

Regards

Sherwood



On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 21:35, Tom Humiston  wrote:

> Okay, Sherwood, I think I'm getting it.
>
> You've got your site source in Markdown format. You want to change the
> images to HTML picture elements, each referring to three files that have a
> standardized naming scheme.
>
> So you're working on how to do the text manipulations with Perl. And you
> wondered if anyone here has a better way to come at it or had already got a
> tool for the job.
>
> I thought you wanted to represent in Markdown syntax _which_ images to
> manipulate and/or their _dimension data_. And then run a script to make the
> change.
>
> Sorry I can't help with Perl. Stack Overflow or a Perl discussion site is
> sure to have folk who can.
>
> I hadn't heard of Template Toolkit; thanks for that. For running my sites
> I use [Void] as a backbone and build it out with tweaks and expansions to
> the PHP and CSS as needed.
>
> [Void]: https://github.com/josephernest/void
>
>
> Cheers,
> Thomas
>
>
>
> > On 30 Mar 2019, at 10:56 AM, Sherwood Botsford 
> wrote:
> >
> > My parser doesn't support that extra syntax, and I don't understand perl
> well enough to swap parsers in Template Toolkit.
> >
> > I'm not sure how it helps me.  While I can add attributes this way, I
> still need to rewrite image.jpg as a series of strings, image-S.jpg;
> image-M.jpg; and image-L.jpg
> >
> > Another key aspect of this: My website at present has 300 pages in it.
> A sed script to turn  to  is a lot
> easier than editing every image reference.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Sherwood
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 20:41, Tom Humiston  wrote:
> > Maybe I misunderstand you but I think one or the other of these will
> work:
> >
> >
> > ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg){.parse_me}
> >
> > ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg '700 500 50 10 138, 1400 1000
> 100 50 416')
> >
> >
> > The latter example is standard Markdown, the former adds a class in the
> manner of PHP Markdown Extra (and other parsers as well, I think).
> >
> > If you post-process, what you'll parse isn't much different from that:
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > Whether you parse Markdown or HTML, all your script needs to look for is
> a class (or title) such as 'parse_me' OR a title consisting of numbers.
> Assuming that the filenames to be generated all follow the same pattern.
> >
> > > So all I need to do is write a code snippet that turns
> > >
> > > ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg) into  the corresponding set of
> picture and src image tags.
> >
> >
> > Yup, I think we're just talking about two different ways of marking the
> images that your snippet will parse.
> >
> > HTH,
> > T
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 29 Mar 2019, at 7:44 AM, Sherwood Botsford 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Reason I'm more inclined to preprocess is as follows:
> > >
> > > Markdown is visually simpler to parse.
> > >
> > > In template toolkit, I create the navigation system, using a 200 line
> TT2 script.  It's messy.  TT2 calls a markdown plugin.
> > >
> > > By using the  versus  I have a clear flag to identify where
> I need to work.  I think this will be simpler to do without going off the
> rails.
> > >
> > > So all I need to do is write a

Re: Responsive images and markdown

[Sherwood Botsford]

My parser doesn't support that extra syntax, and I don't understand perl
well enough to swap parsers in Template Toolkit.

I'm not sure how it helps me.  While I can add attributes this way, I still
need to rewrite image.jpg as a series of strings, image-S.jpg; image-M.jpg;
and image-L.jpg

Another key aspect of this: My website at present has 300 pages in it.  A
sed script to turn  to  is a lot
easier than editing every image reference.


Regards

Sherwood



On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 20:41, Tom Humiston  wrote:

> Maybe I misunderstand you but I think one or the other of these will work:
>
>
> ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg){.parse_me}
>
> ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg '700 500 50 10 138, 1400 1000 100
> 50 416')
>
>
> The latter example is standard Markdown, the former adds a class in the
> manner of PHP Markdown Extra (and other parsers as well, I think).
>
> If you post-process, what you'll parse isn't much different from that:
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
> Whether you parse Markdown or HTML, all your script needs to look for is a
> class (or title) such as 'parse_me' OR a title consisting of numbers.
> Assuming that the filenames to be generated all follow the same pattern.
>
> > So all I need to do is write a code snippet that turns
> >
> > ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg) into  the corresponding set of
> picture and src image tags.
>
>
> Yup, I think we're just talking about two different ways of marking the
> images that your snippet will parse.
>
> HTH,
> T
>
>
>
> > On 29 Mar 2019, at 7:44 AM, Sherwood Botsford 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Reason I'm more inclined to preprocess is as follows:
> >
> > Markdown is visually simpler to parse.
> >
> > In template toolkit, I create the navigation system, using a 200 line
> TT2 script.  It's messy.  TT2 calls a markdown plugin.
> >
> > By using the  versus  I have a clear flag to identify where I
> need to work.  I think this will be simpler to do without going off the
> rails.
> >
> > So all I need to do is write a code snippet that turns
> >
> > ![Alt text here](/path/to/image.jpg) into  the corresponding set of
> picture and src image tags.
> >
> > If I use a variable for the parameters to pass to the srcset criteria,
> then I can change this once for the entire site.
> >
> > It will mean creating at least 2 additional images for each currently
> used image.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Sherwood
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 17:07, Tom Humiston  wrote:
> > Sherwood, great question and well laid out. If a good solution comes up
> I'll probably want it as well.
> >
> > My idea is to _post-process_ the HTML output to convert marked data into
> a picture element, rather than to construct a picture up front that can
> withstand parsing from Markdown into HTML. In the source text, I suggest
> cramming the image's source data into the image's title attribute, which
> then gets unpacked in the post-processing.
> >
> > I wrote the following as I was working out the idea.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > I haven't become familiar with the `` element but I get the
> idea from what you've presented. As for the CSS presentation, fancier
> things are of course possible but that doesn't change the need for
> well-structured content and good markup.
> >
> > Like you, I've got no Javascript background, and I'm happy enough to
> keep it that way. In fact I'm not much of a programmer at all, which may be
> an advantage as I try to always empathize with the non-technical writers
> and readers.
> >
> > So I'm looking at the data salad that supports 'picture' and thinking it
> hardly fits into standard prose, and I think one way to come at it is,
> firstly, to pick the appropriate existing Markdown that will tuck the
> structured data into a place it would pose no harm if visible to readers,
> and, secondly, to write a script that will _post-process_ the HTML and
> rewrite the element containing the picture data as a picture element at the
> desired position.
> >
> > That is:
> >
> > 1. Process your Markdown into HTML.
> > 2. Post-process the HTML to rewrite instances of picture data as
> `` elements.
> >
> > For the first step, two options that come to mind use extended Markdown
> syntax: the footnote and the description list.
> >
> > In either case I suppose you could include a keyword or key bit of
> syntax to mark the data in a way that will cause your bespoke
> post-processing script to recognize and act upon it.
> >
> > A __footnote__ wo

Re: Responsive images and markdown

[Sherwood Botsford]

met consectetur adipiscing whatever.
>
> \\picture-data\\
> :   source media="(max-width: 700px)" sizes="(max-width: 500px) 50vw,
> 10vw" srcset="stick-figure-narrow.png 138w, stick-figure-hd-narrow.png
> 138w"; source media="(max-width: 1400px)" sizes="(max-width: 1000px) 100vw,
> 50vw" srcset="stick-figure.png 416w, stick-figure-hd.png 416w"; img
> src="stick-original.png" alt="Human"
>
> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetur adipiscing more of whatever.
>
>
> ## Example 3: Description List with Multiple Terms
>
> \\picture-data\\
>
> source1
> : media="(max-width: 700px)" sizes="(max-width: 500px) 50vw, 10vw"
> srcset="stick-figure-narrow.png 138w, stick-figure-hd-narrow.png 138w"
>
> source2
> : media="(max-width: 1400px)" sizes="(max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 50vw"
> srcset="stick-figure.png 416w, stick-figure-hd.png 416w";
>
> img
> : src="stick-original.png" alt="Human"
>
>
> ## Example 4: Image + Footnote
>
> Presumably you'd like a basic one-size-fits-all-screens 'img' element to
> be displayed in case there is no post-processing to create a picture
> element. Shifting the additional source data (beyond what is required for
> img) into a footnote could still be a good answer:
>
> ![Human](stick-original.png)[^pic4]
>
> [^pic4]: \picture-data\ source media="(max-width: 700px)"
> sizes="(max-width: 500px) 50vw, 10vw" srcset="stick-figure-narrow.png 138w,
> stick-figure-hd-narrow.png 138w"; source media="(max-width: 1400px)"
> sizes="(max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 50vw" srcset="stick-figure.png 416w,
> stick-figure-hd.png 416w"
>
>
> ## Example 5: Image with Title
>
> This variation has the advantage that the additional source info is not
> visible (in ordinary contexts, although it's still part of the HTML
> content):
>
> ![Human][human]
>
> [human]: stick-original.png '\picture-data\ source media="(max-width:
> 700px)" sizes="(max-width: 500px) 50vw, 10vw"
> srcset="stick-figure-narrow.png 138w, stick-figure-hd-narrow.png 138w";
> source media="(max-width: 1400px)" sizes="(max-width: 1000px) 100vw, 50vw"
> srcset="stick-figure.png 416w, stick-figure-hd.png 416w"'
>
> The reference form can be used (i.e. image info moved further down the
> page), as shown above. Either way, however, a distinct disadvantage of the
> img approach is that quotes may need to be escaped, since the value of the
> title attribute must be quoted and the value itself (at least as I've been
> showing it) contains quotes.
>
> ---
>
> In each example above, I assumed that your post-processing script will
> look for `\picture-data\` and rewrite the related HTML using the string of
> data that follows.
>
> In the case of a footnote, the script would need to find the related link
> and insert the picture element there. If HTML5 does not define ``
> as a block element and you wish it this one to be so, I suppose you'd need
> to add 'block' or something to your picture-data so that it can influence
> the post-processing. CSS classes and IDs can be added as well in this
> fashion.
>
> Example 5, the image-with-title, is possibly the best of these suggestions
> — unless your preferred Markdown implementation chokes on nested quotes in
> image titles. (The dingus at Daring Fireball renders the double-quotes in
> the example as `` entities. The parser inside the 1Writer app does
> this in all the examples. Okay, so your post-processor converts these back
> to quotes.)
>
> Some last thoughts:
>
> - This sort of post-processing approach frees you from having to write any
> HTML for your picture, let alone HTML with case-sensitive tags.
> - Other Markdown options that occurred to me later include a table and
> nested lists, but I see little advantage (beyond some semantic correctness
> if they aren't processed out) and so didn't include them above.
> - PHP Markdown Extra allows class and ID to be set on images. (And on code
> blocks. The image-source data, for typical reading purposes, is
> programmatic, i.e. it's code, so that would be semantically appropriate
> markup.) Classes and IDs can aid what we're trying to do here.
> - I already use post-processing in my PHP to rewrite footnote links (so
> that they don't conflict with those of other blog posts on the same page)
> and find the lag unnoticeable.
>
>
> Hoping this helps,
> Thomas Humiston
>
>
>
> > On 27 Mar 2019, at 10:22 AM, Sherwood Botsford 

Responsive images and markdown

[Sherwood Botsford]

I like markdown.  I use it in combination with Template Toolkit, and
basically I don't have to write any html.  My webpages are static, having
only the js snippet that Google analytics uses.  I would mostly like to
keep it that way.  I have zero javascript experience.

I can do some degree of simple page layout using a handful of classes
applied to DIVs.

So this



![Shelterbelt-12][2]

Planting a shelterbelt, or any tree project...

***


[2]: /Images/Shelterbelt/Shelterbelt-12.jpg

is all the html I need to use to have an image sized to width 30% of the
Content div floated to the right.  The system isn't perfect, but it resizes
reasonably well, and since the page is static it caches well, and is fast
to deliver.

More important to me:  I can spend time writing content, and very little
tweaking layout.

The problem:  If I serve an nice desktop image to a mobile phone, download
times are high.  If I serve an image of reduced resolution to make phone
access quick, it looks like crap on a desktop.



 In Html we now have the  element, combined with the srcset and
size attributes.  This turns what used to be a simple img tag into this:









At this point, I'm looking at having to roll my own solution much along
this line:

*  Replace  with   On my implementation of Markdown, being
between lower case tags means that the content of that tag is not Markdown
processed.

* Come up with a standard naming convention, say whateverimage-L.jpg for
the large version, -M.jpg for the medium version and -S. jpg for the small
version.

* Pre process the resulting markdown files to generate the full 
element from the embedded markdown.  I think this is within my limited perl
programming capabilities.

Gotchas?

This wheel has been invented already?

Better ways to approach this?  Should I bite the bullet and do this with a
javascript snippet?

Some other solution I've missing in my wandering of 'a maze of twisty
passages, all different' that is the internet?


Regards

Sherwood
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Re: beaker-browser supports light-markup sites

[Sherwood Botsford]

FWIW  my solution is to use TextWrangler for editing markdown files,
fswatch to monitor the directory tree, and process the MD files to html
files.

This allows me a consitent editor environment.  (I hate swtiching editors.)



Regards

Sherwood


On 2 June 2017 at 00:32, Gerald Bauer  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > falls in the solution-in-search-of-a-problem tag?
> >
> > help my out of myopia.
>
>Maybe an analogy helps:
>
>Who needs markdown - it's a solution-in-search-of-a-problem. Just
> write HTML. That's the same myopia. HTML *is* plain text and *is*
> beautiful.
>
>Anyways, use what works for you. Emacs is great. Cheers.
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Re: Proposal for (source-side) hyphenation support

[Sherwood Botsford]

You don't want to do it in markdown at all.

A better way to do this would be with a dictionary that knew how words were
hyphenated, and it would insert soft hyphens globally.

This would likely be a post processing step.  E.g. Markdown -> Html ->
softhypenate.

You want it to be separate because different languages have differing
conventions.

Ideally, you want it robust.  So you try to do as much as possible with
rules, then you are explicit with the odd balls.  This would make a program
that did the right thing most of the time.

This *should* happen in the browser.

I won't hold my breath.

Regards

Sherwood


On 31 March 2017 at 12:33, Nico Huber  wrote:

> On 31.03.2017 19:27, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Markdown-Discuss [mailto:markdown-discuss-
> >> boun...@six.pairlist.net] On Behalf Of Nico Huber
> >> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 09:58
> >> To: markdown-discuss 
> >> Subject: Proposal for (source-side) hyphenation support
> >>
> >> Hi there,
> >>
> >> don't know if this has been discussed before, or if I just overlooked
> >> how to do it: I'm missing support for hyphenation in Markdown files.
> >> Looking at always ragged HTML pages is already hard enough, so I can't
> >> bear anything but halfway justified text in my editor and manually hy-
> >> phenate words.
> >>
> >> I would do it as follows: 1. If a hyphen followed by a single new-line
> >> character is encountered "-\n[^\n]", drop the hyphen and any following
> >> whitespace. 2. In case you have to break a word that includes a hyphen,
> >> you would escape the new-line character "-\\\n". Like this: Escape new-\
> >> line character to preserve the hyphen. This way, the hyphen wouldn't
> >> occur in front of the new-line char and 1. doesn't apply. Although, any
> >> whitespace following the new-line char would also have to be dropped in
> >> this case.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> > [orcmid]
> >
> > I think we need to think about how this is conveyed into HTML, and what
> > browsers might do, since that is where the actual layout width is
> > determined.  It should be assumed that reflow can happen at any time and
> > the soft-hyphen might be usable along with whatever other automatic
> > hyphenation the browser uses.
> >
> > A direct method would be to insert soft-hyphen (SHY) codes, code-point
> > 0xAD in Unicode and in Latin-1.
> >
> > I recommend working backward from that to find a Markdown escape that
> > serves this purpose.
>
> Sorry, I should have made it more clear. I'm not talking about any
> effective change of the output. My purpose is to enhance readability
> of the Markdown source. Any "escape" that differs visually much from
> the usual hyphen before a line break wouldn't serve "this purpose".
>
> The ability to add hyphenation hints in the output might be useful,
> too. But is off topic for me.
>
> Nico
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Markdown, Rich Text Snippets for web

[Sherwood Botsford]

Was browsing google webmaster tools, and reading up on rich text snippets.
(RTS)  These are a raft of additional span tags that supposedly make the
web easier for search engines to parse.

I'm still mulling over their worth.  Or rather:  If I have to insert all
this additional markup by hand, then it's not worth it at all.

If on the other hand, I can find a post processor that slaps an "article"
schema tag around the page, defines the first occurrence of an H1 tag as
being a Title.

It occurs to me that some clever use of CSS could be used to implement RTS
as either an inprocess or post process script.  E.g.  CSS class names that
map to schema tag names would be automatically wrapped.

Anyone done this, or know of other tools to take the pain out of RTS


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
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Re: Auto Transform Text

[Sherwood Botsford]

The downside of that:  How do you change it?

***

Two approaches I've seen:

1.  On stack exchange they have an editor that makes you type markdown in
one field, and it shows it formatted in another field.  This works fairly
well.

2.  There is an extension, Markdown Here available for both Chrome and
Firefox that allows you to type MD and there is a toggle that switches
between marked up verson and fancy text.  Works quite well in gmail/chrome.

***





Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0


On 4 January 2015 at 05:30, max hilmer mhil...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I would really like to see a feature that auto transforms text written in
 markdown to WYSIWYG. So if you type *this* it will automatically make the
 markdown disappear and the word would then be emphasized. This feature is
 available on apps like Ulysses, Scrivener, and Macchiato, aka for apps
 focused on writing rather than programming. However I haven't found a way
 to incorporate this into my wordpress site -allowing all authors this
 feature.

 Any valuable comments to this issue would be much appreciated,
 Sincerely,
 Max Hilmer

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Re: Markdown within block-level elements

[Sherwood Botsford]

I find that my usage is tag dependent.  In general I want markdown:

html on
head  off
body on
div on
table on
code off
pre off

The various table MD extensions mean that I almost never use a table tag
anymore.

My div tags allow me to unobtrusively put some page structure with css
classes into my documents.  My average page has about 10 structural divs in
it.  It's a nuisance and an eyesore to turn on markdown in each one.
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Re: How often do you use inline images? p wrapper is really useful?

[Sherwood Botsford]

I use them a lot. My usual way is

div markdown =1 class=picright40

Then style picright60 as float; width 40%

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014, Rob McBroom mailingli...@skurfer.com wrote:

 On 5 Mar 2014, at 10:18, Jak Wings wrote:

 I'm designing my own Markdown-like language. :) I just don't know how
 important it is to use inline images. What do you think?

 If you don't explicitly define a way to do it, others will make something
 up. Probably multiple others with multiple somethings.

 For reference, see: Every HTML tag that isn't spit out by Markdown.pl. ;-)

 --
 Rob McBroom
 http://www.skurfer.com/



-- 
Sent from my phone. Spelling and grammar mistakes are the phone's fault.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

More seriously, this is an abbreviated response from away from my desk. If
I don't get back to you soon, ping me again. Details can get lost.

Sherwood
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Excel to Markdown

[Sherwood Botsford]

While MMD is wonderful, much of the time you want to do other things with
the data first.

My problem:  I have a whole bunch of small tables I keep on an excel
spreadsheet for setting my prices for various numbers of trees and whatnot.


Here's a couple recipes for using excel data.

Layout your spreadsheet as normal.
Insert a blank row for the formating row.
Create a wide column to the right of your table

Each row corresponding to a table row has a formula something like this:

|A1|B1|C1...

You will need to modify for possible grouping.  E.g. A one line title on a
5 column table will end up being
|A1


In the blank cell corresponding to the formatting row, type an appropriate
string of |::|...

My problem was a bit messier than that.  I advertise on Canada kijiji (not
the same as the US version)  They allow some formatting in ads but do not
have a table format at all.

I needed as ascii table.  The results of cut and paste from excell into a
text processor are less than stellar, as data is separated with a single
tab character.  Anything that lines up is coincidence.

My route was to take this notion one step further, and make an ascii
formated column that would work for either MMD or for text base ads.

First attempt:

|  A1  REPT( ,15-LEN(A1)) 
|  B1 ...

I didn't like the hard coding of the column widths.
And if your source column is $2.50 it comes across as 2.5

Second attempt.

1 blank column for column I want to use.

If our table is 5 columns wide, I need another 5 columns.

F1 in this one has the formula =TEXT(A1,$0.00)
Replicate across and down as needed.

Secondly, insert a row above.  In this row, but the column width you want
for the output.

Now your formula for K2 will look like this:
|  F1  REPT( ,K$1-LEN(F1)) 
|  G1 ...

At this point if I want flush right text, I have to reverse
the REPT and the Cell reference.  No thoughts of centering.

Sample output results

|Bareroot Bundles of 25 2-3 year olds  
|Bundles |# Trees   |  Cost| Price Per Tree|
|:---|:-|-:|--:|
|5 Trees |5 |$30.00|  $6.00|
|Single Bundle   |25|$75.00|  $3.00|
|5 Bundles   |125   |   $300.00|  $2.40|
|10 Bundles  |250   |   $525.00|  $2.10|



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
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Re: RFC: Remove Paragraph Tags between Tags

[Sherwood Botsford]

Set the class in CSS
To avoid setting it globally do this

div class = menu

* item
* another item
* a third item
* yet another item

/div

The div lines are surrounded in p tags, which is a doesn't validate, but
which all browsers ignore.

On Sunday, November 24, 2013, Mariusz Wojcik wrote:

  What problem are you actually trying to solve?

 That Problem I want to solve is to have a Menu for my simple CMS. This Menu
 which is created with Markdown needs a specified class. I don't want to
 use all
 over there html tags.


  Yours is a bad solution, but implies that what I provided before didn't
 meet
  your needs.
 
  Is there a reason it didn't?

 Yes, I want to set the class of the `ul` element which doesn't work in
 Markdown style AFAIK.
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-- 
Sent from my phone. Spelling and grammar mistakes are the phone's fault.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

More seriously, this is an abbreviated response from away from my desk. If
I don't get back to you soon, ping me again. Details can get lost.

Sherwood
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Re: map syntax

[Sherwood Botsford]

From previous discussions on this board I suspect your best bet is to post
process.  I think the BB code will pass through MD unchanged.  If MD
mangles it, try to enclose it in  .  Then write a script that goes
through the MD output file and tweaks it as necessary.  OR modify the code
of the forum engine to read the mangling that MD gives it.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 2 November 2013 02:55, Дмитрий Киселев dmitry.v.kise...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi everybody.

 I want to implement web map posting syntax for markdown.
 There is the project which do that for some forum engines
 http://mapbbcode.org/

 May be I do that as a plugin (not everybody needs post maps in their md
 documents)

 So I want to discuss a format for thous maps.

 For forum bb code it's looks like

 [map=zoom,lon,lat]features; separated; by; semicolons(with, optional,
 parameters)[/map]

 =zoom,lon,lat and features are optional.
 If there is no zoom - map will fit features, if there is no features map
 will be
 centered on lon lat with zoom level.
 If there is no features ether zoom and map center - there will be default
 world map.

 So how about this

 map[zoom,lon,lat]features; separated; by; semicolons(with, optional,
 parameters)

 I'm not good in md, and don't know what will be the best syntax for maps.

 --
 Best Regards
 dmitry.v.kise...@gmail.com

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Re: ordered lists: type lower alpha?

[Sherwood Botsford]

Generalization:  Do what you can in CSS.

A very useful addition IMHO would be something like this:

::Foo::
which would be translated for purposes of HTML as
DIV class=Foo

The occurrance of another
::BAR::
would result in
/DIV
DIV class=BAR

But :::BAR::: wouldn't close the previous DIV.

A small variation could do id= instead of class=

DIVs are natural containers for CSS style elements, where you want to
change the way something is presented.

(I'm not wedded to the colon marker.  It probably conflicts with something,
but it sees fairly unobtrusive, and hence in line with the transparency
goal of MD)

This has the downside, that it would be difficult to translate to LaTeX.
But does *anything* do MDD+CSS = LaTeX?



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 23 July 2013 13:57, John MacFarlane j...@berkeley.edu wrote:

 +++ Klaus Mueller [Jul 23 13 18:40 ]:
  Hi folks,
 
  atm we have in markdown [ordered lists] with the [type] 'arabic
  numbers' working:
 
  1. one
  1. two
 
  would it be possible to have also the type 'lower alpha'?
 
  a. first
  a. second
 
  The type attribute is deprecated, but it is allowed to supported it
  or just add an inline css (e.g.  style='list-style-type:
  lower-alpha;' ).

 It's not standard markdown, but pandoc's extended markdown supports this:

 http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/try/?text=a.+item%0Ab.+item%0Afrom=markdownto=html

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Re: Markdown-Discuss Digest, Vol 125, Issue 8

[Sherwood Botsford]

On 8 July 2013 00:29, Paul Wilson pw6...@gmail.com wrote:

 To extend bowerbird's comment about URLs, the (often incorrectly named)
 protocols that I use fairly often cover a lot of options in addition to
 http, and the implied https. I find myself using mail, ftp/ftps, rdp,
 sip and a number of others. This emphasises the risks in assuming that an
 underscore will always imply a need for italics.


To extend BB's syntax, the sequence :// must be uncommon in anything
outside a URL.  So [string]://[Not White Space] should match any URL


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
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Re: what this has to do with markdown

[Sherwood Botsford]

Bowerbird, after this epistle, I promise to read you more thoroughly.
 Nicely put.



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 7 July 2013 20:21, bowerbird bowerb...@aol.com wrote:

 first, i'm sorry for the expletive in your in-box.  really.

 i also apologize for the smell from those dead skunks.

 ***

 as to what this has to do with markdown, it's simple.

 if i remember correctly -- i might not, but who cares? --
 fan_f*ck*ng_tastic was the word gruber used to justify
 his choice that his version of markdown would recognize
 intraword italics.  so that's why _i_ used that one as well.

 now, the reason i followed it up with my reference to the
 dead-skunk problem is because it's almost perfect as a
 demonstration of the full range of problems these days...

 a person comes in and says, hey, i noticed this glitch.

 somebody else says here's a workaround you can use.

 which -- first -- ignores the fact that it's after-the-fact.

 but, in this particular case, the suggestion was actually
 better than most.  to remind you, the workaround was to
 surround filename_withanunderbar.txt with `backticks`,
 which marks it as `code`, and thus short-circuits italics.

 because, as the suggester pointed out, it is the case that
 you probably _want_ filenames to be marked as `code`,
 so they will display in a different typeface, and stand out.

 the problem with that tactic, however, is that it does not
 address the situation where you would want the word to
 be rendered with the same typeface as surrounding text.
 you wouldn't want fan_f*ck*ng_tastic marked as code.

 so...  sticking with the problem in regard to filenames...

 another workaround would be to backslash/escape the
 underbar in the filename, which will also nix the italics,
 but that presents a different problem, which is that now
 we've gummed up the plain-text version of the filename
 with an unwanted backslash, with unknown side-effects.
 (since you just know somebody is going to end up using
 that now-improper filename, and they will suffer for it.)

 that same type of problem would likely manifest with the
 just use raw .html workaround, even if you can find the
 way to concoct that.  (it hurts my brain to think about it;
 i'm using light-markup so i'm not forced to do raw html.)

 the fact is, we really want to leave a filename untouched.
 but we also don't want its underbars to be italic triggers.

 and remember that when an underbar is misrecognized
 as an italic-trigger, it's dropped from .html output, so
 we now have _another_ wrong version of that filename,
 in addition to the difficult problem of the runaway italics.

 and, just to remind y'all that this is even _more_ thorny,
 this underbar problem also happens regularly with urls.

 (there are other instances too, but i do not intend to
 share all of the results from my hard-fought research;
 since url's have the problem, it is significant enough.)

 this is not a thing we can casually sweep under the rug.

 which is why some markdown script-writers have just
 decided that they will _disallow_ intraword underbars.

 and, in defense of that decision, it is the absolute truth
 that browsers make a sad tragedy with intraword italics.
 go look at some, take a hard look, and you _will_ see it:
 the italic characters either slant into the upright ones, or
 lean far too far away from them. either side, it's _awful_.

 so yes, many markdown scripters do an outright ban...

 which is fine if you are god, and you make the decisions.

 but if you are beholden to users, it might not be so good.

 and if you consider yourself to be a _servant_of_writers_,
 then you really need to do a bit of research (or lots of it)
 to discern if writers actually do ever use intraword italics.

 that was what i did, as i was developing my light-markup.

 so i can tell you that, yes, indeed, writers _do_ use them.

 not a lot, of course, but they're not that infrequent either,
 and it is a sizable percentage of writers that do use them.

 so that's probably why about _half_ of the implementations
 ban 'em, and half _allow_ them.  it's split down the middle.

 so if you really want to know if it's acceptable to ban them,
 my advice would be no.

 ***

 now, let's go back and look what the original poster said.

Why not to ignore all _
which are not followed or preceded
either by a whitespace or by a newline?

 just for the record, a newline _is_ whitespace, so we can
 strike the or by a newline phrase; just use whitespace.

 as a first pass in thinking about that issue, that's not bad.
 i'd say it's the solution most people would come up with.

 i wouldn't even be surprised if some implementations do
 indeed use exactly that rule to govern their conversions...

 but if you actually go look at where italics markup is used,
 you'll find many people put italics _inside_

Re: Styling Markdown approaches

[Sherwood Botsford]

I love standards.  There are so many to choose from.

Yes the core of MD is similar.  But there are enough edge cases that you
cannot count on being able to take MD from one location and using it at
another.  I would prefer to be able to control this behaviour either with a
configuration file, or inline material, rather than having to edit the
markup for each file itself.  Doing it inline, means that in theory for
each tweak there is a configuation value that follows the 'standard' (such
as it isn't) and a value for the tweak.

In the archives of this list there are records of many items discussing
where Gruber's spec was ambiguous.And the canonical code doesn't make
html that validates, as loose tags are surrounded by P tags.

Fork my own? I've done that.  I have the older CPAN version of MMD and have
hacked the default value of the markdown flag so that it is 1 all the
time.  It's a crummy hack.   I have to redo it every time I update my CPAN
library for a new version of Perl.


I write web pages.  I went to MD because it minimized the amount of
repetitive markup I was doing.

Will it bite me?  Quite possibly.  But my MD files are not public access.

It's actually worse than that, because for me MMD is actually a module in
Template Toolkit.  So my information is MD markup wrapped in a preface and
epilog of template toolkit.  Included file in the TT portion create my
static menu. Portable? No.  But the result is a static page, without
javascript (except for google analytics) that loads blindingly fast, and
allows me to use a shared server without worrying about CPU contention.

But it would be a 3 hour hack to write a script to strip the TT wrapper
off, another hack to explicityly put in the markdown=1 flags.  But
meanwhile I have cleaner looking markup.

However, I won't try to convert anyone.  Several people have spoken
eloquently that this is a Bad Thing (tm) and no one has agreed.  I must
abide by the Will of the People, and withdraw to the Cave of the
Curmudgeons.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 19 April 2013 20:22, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.ca wrote:

 Le 19-avr.-2013 à 17:00, Sherwood Botsford sgbotsf...@gmail.com a écrit
 :

  That particular cat is out of the bag, however, and we have a score of
  implementations.  From all apparent discussion here, there is no
 particular
  urge for the writers to get together to reduce the implementations.  So
 we
  have 20 document formats already.  And not all the implementers are
  concerned with backward compatibility.
 
  The same can be said of html and CSS.  CSS configures how the html is
  rendered.  So CMD could configure the way MD is rendered.

 CSS doesn't change how the HTML is parsed, only how it looks (and sometime
 how it behaves). Similarly, configuration options in a Markdown parser that
 let you adjust *the output* to your linking are very welcome.

 As for all the implementations, they mostly vary in edge cases and in
 their extensions to the core syntax. The core Markdown syntax (as defined
 by John Gruber) is pretty much the same everywhere, and this includes how
 HTML blocks are parsed. Implementations doing things differently than core
 Markdown are doing it mostly by adding restrictions out of security
 concerns with user-generated content.

 By the way, if you really feel like it you should go ahead and hack your
 preferred implementation to do what you want. Just keep in mind that your
 documents using this tweaked syntax feature won't work right with other
 implementations. This might or might not come to bite you in the future
 depending on what you intend to do with those documents.


 --
 Michel Fortin
 michel.for...@michelf.ca
 http://michelf.ca/

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Re: Styling Markdown approaches

[Sherwood Botsford]

Why?

Most reasonably powerful unix commands have some combination of command
line or startup files to control behavior.

At the present stage when someone wants something new, they have to fork
their least unfavorite version, and tweak it to their purpose.




Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 19 April 2013 05:25, Aristotle Pagaltzis pagalt...@gmx.de wrote:

 * Sherwood Botsford sgbotsf...@gmail.com [2013-04-18 17:20]:
  (I wish that this was a toggle that could be set in a .mmdrc file.
  There are a lot of things that I wish I could set in an .mmdrc file.)

 That would be bad for Markdown.
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Re: Styling Markdown approaches

[Sherwood Botsford]

There is a babel markdown web site that you can see how various dialects
convert markup.

The only html I use in on my website now is the div tag, usually with a
class or ID.  This controls my layout.  MMD has sufficient table handling
for my purposes.

So for me, my MD looks like this:

# This is a title
## And a subtitle underneath it.

This is intoductory text on my page

DIV class=picr4

![Image alternate text](http://path/to/Image)

caption to the image above, explaining it's relevance to the main text

***
/div

Class picr4 is styled to float right, and be 40% of the width of the
container.  I have a half dozen classes.  Caption text is styled with
.picr4 p {  so that it is visually distinct from the body text

So far I've not found much else that I need.



I don't think you want to make changes insitu.  However take a look at
stackexchange.com  They use a subset of MD as their site markup language
for user replies, and they compose MD in one window and display it in
another.  It's a good way to do this for interactive use.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 18 April 2013 09:52, Kai Hendry hen...@iki.fi wrote:

 Since folks with considerably more influence than myself have tried
 (and failed?) to standardise markdown:
 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/10/the-future-of-markdown.html

 I think I need to rethink my approach of using Pagedown.
 https://code.google.com/p/pagedown/

 Are there editors that basically expand markdown input into HTML in
 the textarea I wonder?

 The big saving for Markdown for me is just auto-wrapping paragraphs.
 Nice bullet point making. Nicer link making actions, e.g.

 * foo CR

 becomes

 lifoo/li

 after returning the carriage return. Or perhaps asking people to
 highlight a region. Which in turns gets churned into HTML.

 Anyway, just a brain fart on how I can possibly get out of this mixing
 HTML  Markdown quagmire.
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Re: Community Group for Markdown Standardization

[Sherwood Botsford]

Karl:  From the response previously on this list it will be a hard
sell.  I think you will need to contact the owner of every MD
implementation individually and talk them into it.

As I've mentioned before on this list, the key is to recognize that
there are differences in MD implementations and behavior.  Some of
these are due to borderline cases in the original Gruber spec.  Some
of these are extensions for features that JG didn't think important.
The extensions aren't all compatible.

The only way I've been able to figure out how to work with this would
be as follows:

Every MD implementation would have to have two behaviours, set either
by a command line flag, a configuration file, or a preference if used
with a GUI.  One behaviour would be the individual behavior so that
the followers of that implementation wouldn't be left in the lurch.
One would be the standard behavior.

In addition some versions may have additional modes to support PDF, or
XML or LaTeX output.

But this is NOt going to work unless you get the implementors online.
Who, besides Mr. Fletcher owns an implementation of MD.

Fletcher, are YOU in?
Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0



On 20 November 2012 03:43, Karl Dubost ka...@opera.com wrote:
 FYI,

 There was an interest from a few people to create a formalization of Markdown 
 as it is currently implemented.
 A W3C Community Group has been created for moving forward and exploring the 
 idea and create a spec if necessary.

 A W3C Community Group [1] is a platform for discussing, publishing about a 
 topic. You just need a free public W3C account [2]

 The community markdown group [3] has started to discuss about the work. This 
 is the very start of the discussion, there is nothing formal. Implementers 
 feedback and input are essential to the success of this.


 [1]: http://www.w3.org/community/
 [2]: http://www.w3.org/community/account/request
 [3]: http://www.w3.org/community/markdown/
 --
 Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/
 Developer Relations, Opera Software

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Re: pre in lists

[Sherwood Botsford]

There may be merit in having a section in the docs that reviews the use of
white space.  I know it's caught me several times.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On 17 August 2012 21:10, Boris Le Ninivin boris.lenini...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 08/17/2012 08:43 PM, Rob McBroom wrote:

 On Aug 17, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Boris Le Ninivin boris.lenini...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  That works like a charm. It was missing the newline, I guess...

 If only someone had said “there needs to be an empty line before the
 first line of code”. ;-)

  Well, it wasn't emphased enough, I guess... I didn't see you've written
 it until you pointed it out in this last mail. Hence the need for clear and
 well detailled documentations ;)

 But anyway, thank you very much for having given the solution in the first
 place. I only wish I wouldn't be that used to stop reading after I find the
 (sometimes partial) answer to my question.

 And just a note if it can help you to help people : at first, I tried the
 solution Waylan gave me (so the one you gave me too then) BEFORE inserting
 a newline between the list and the code block. I was writing an answer
 saying sorry, it don't work either... when I noticed the newline in his
 code, and read his explanation. And the reason why I didn't insert a new
 line before was : to me a new line would have broke the list, making two
 successive ol instead of one. I'm not saying it's a design problem, but to
 me it's not that consistent with the rest of the syntax.

 I guess I might have missed the point about indentation to keep text in
 the same block ;)

 Many thanks for everything, guys.

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Re: Paragraphs and html integration.

[Sherwood Botsford]

As a work around, look at Template Toolkit 2.

Here's the template for my home page:

[% INCLUDE header.inc
  Title = Sherwood's Forests Home
  Desc = Sherwood's Forests Tree Farm home page, and site overview
  ExtraMetaContent = meta name=\verify-v1\
content=\1TmuWV5qz7Z+uVP9MZMrq+IiHOqa2tBiOy6E+L7f+aM=\ /
%]
[% INCLUDE sidenav.inc %]
div id=content
[% FILTER markdown %]

Regular MD stuff goes here.

[% INSERT Copyright.inc %]

[% END %]


/div
[% INCLUDE footer.inc %]
(END)





Notes:

One of the features I like about TT2 is that you can do substitutions on
inclusions.

Writing header.inc wasn't easy, as it also reads in an external file and
processes it into the navigation menu.  But I never modify it, so that's a
non-issue.

Creating a new page consists of:

* Making a copy of an existing page.
* Putting in new markdown stuff in the middle of the file
* If I do nothing else, it will show up in alphabetical order in the
directory it's in.  E.g.  /Home/Trees/Leaf_Trees/Poplars/Swedish_Aspen.tt2
will show up in the menu system as
Home - Trees - Leaf Trees - Poplars - Swedish Aspen

run my update program, which rebuilds the entire site, and reposts it.
(Got burned by one of these spam trojans, so the site gets rebuilt twice a
day. )



There is a file where I can overwrite the the order for how names appear in
the menu.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On 19 June 2012 04:40, Boris Le Ninivin boris.lenini...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 06/19/2012 02:00 AM, Waylan Limberg wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Boris Le Ninivin
 boris.lenini...@gmail.com  wrote:

 On 06/18/2012 09:27 PM, Michel Fortin wrote:

 Le 2012-06-18 à 6:26, Boris Le Ninivin a écrit :
 In the end, on the df website, it is said that Markdown is smart enough
 not
 to add extra (unwanted) |p| tags around HTML block-level tags.. So I
 don't know if it's an implementation problem (related to the PHP port,
 maybe?), or if it's a design problem, but as far as I know, Markdown is
 not
 smart enough to not add unwantedp  tags.

 That's only true for known HTML tags, and only the block-level ones.

 Does that mean thathtml  and!doctype  tags will be enclosed
 betweenp
 ?

 Yes. More specifically, known block-level tags that would only ever
 appear inside thebody  of a valid HTML4/XHTML1 document are
 recognized by Markdown. So any new tags introduced by HTML5 would also
 not be recognized - although some implementations may be starting to
 add them.

 I guess there are valid reasons for that behavior, even if I don't see
 them already.

  Also remember that those tags must begin at the start of a line. No
 indentation allowed - or they not recognized as block level tags. Yes,
 this is documented - so most implementations follow it.

 Okay. That seems to match what I've seen in the code.

  If your addinghtml  stuff to your documents, that is generally
 handled after markdown is run on the body. For example, most
 frameworks and template systems will use a template which generates
 all the stuff outside thebody  and perhaps a header/footer inside
 the body, and then use a template variable to insert the already
 converted markdown into the document.

 Well, I really want to have the markdown document containing inclusion
 tags. So I'll try the method that Sir Fortin pointed out.

  Markdown does not generally
 expect to have the already generated document run through it -
 although I know some people have had success using it that way in
 specific controlled environments.

 I guessed that, that's why I gave up with the idea of replacing any
 non-markup content before running the markdown process.

 Many thanks you for your help, I'll try to correct my code using your help
 and ideas, and I'll tell you if it works :)

 Boris.

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Re: [text][index](url) syntax

[Sherwood Botsford]

This is one of those specialist apps that needs a post processing script.

Define them as end notes.  The script reparses the markdown document and
re-inserts them inline as inline HTML  A clever
script would allow you to choose to insert every time or just the first
time.  A really clever script would allow you to define each reference ONCE
in a single file, and use that to resolve multiple references in multiple
documents.

This would require re-inventing parts of the MMD parsing tree.

What may be a more general and more valuable mod to MMD would be:

1.  An API that allowed access to the parse tree, after parsing, but before
processing into documents.

2.  Hooks that would allow an intermediate external command to run.

I think MMD has #1 as I vaguely recall that MMD uses XLST as an
intermediate form, although that may be a daunting API to use.


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On 30 May 2012 22:46, David Chambers david.chambers...@gmail.com wrote:

 What do you think about that? Godd idea? Crap?


 Not a good idea, in my opinion. Markdown provides two ways to define
 links, which are sufficient given that one provides the reusability you
 desire. As a reader of a Markdown document, I prefer the links to be in one
 place (generally at the bottom of the document). Inline links are fine,
 too. The option you present would make it difficult to find the URL for a
 link via a quick scan of a document.

 David


 On 30 May 2012 14:14, Alan Hogan cont...@alanhogan.com wrote:

 I haven’t ever seen that used in plaintext writing before, which would
 make the syntax probably violate the principle of being derived from email
 list / plain text patterns.

 More concerning is that now potentially literal brackets that were
 adjacent to a link, if anyone had that, would now be linked and more
 importantly the link text would be hidden. But maybe that’s not so common.

 Personally, I don’t see why it’s a big problem to just define the link at
 the bottom if you want to use it in several places.

 But, you did get me thinking. It would be interesting if there was a
 magic named link, ibid., which always refer to the preceding link, in
 context. So:

[One](http://one.example.com), [two][ibid.], [three][ibid.],
 [four][], [five][ibid.]

[four]: http://four.example.com

 Would generate three links to one.example.com and two to four.example.com
 .

 (If the user had manually defined a link named ibid. then that would
 take precedence over the magic implementation. And of course, the first
 link in the document cannot be an 'ibid.' link; I suppose the behavior
 should be to either output a link with no href value or just emit the plain
 text.)

 On May 30, 2012, at 1:59 PM, Jakob wrote:

  Hi there! I wanted to drop a line on the markdown syntax used for links:
 
  When i reference to [some website][1] and want to do [the same
 reference][1] later ai can only do this in endnote style (or howeer it's
 called). What i would want to be able to do is to make [an inline reference
 to a website][2](http://anotherexample.com) and be able to reuse [that
 reference][2] just the same.
 
  What do you think about that? Godd idea? Crap?
 
  Regards,
 
  Jakov
 
  [1]: http://example.com
 
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Re: Is there anyone would like to hold a standard organization of Markdown syntax?

[Sherwood Botsford]

IF concensus could be reached, then many implementors would have to decide
how to support it.  There is very little history of open source projects
merging, particularly when there are multiple forks of it

Mind you Posix is such a standard and it came up well after there were a
zilling dialects of Unix.  (And many GNU utilities have a flag,
--posix-me-harder for compliance in the face of common usage.)

And there lies the hint:

Either command line flags, a dot rc file,  or preferences for GUI
implementations that handles the feature difference. This allow people who
cling to 'the way that works' and is generally a good thing for any program
that is use as a toolchain component.

Each author could also be responsible for a conversion program to migrate
texts from their way to 'standards compliant'

The question then becomes for the authors:  What's in it for them.  Where
before they were the sole prince of a small principality, now they become a
cabinet member of a major state.  No major feature change without concensus.

Does Flether even exchange email with the author of Pandoc?

I'm not hopeful of a merging of any of the strands happening.  It's come up
before on this list, but has received no support from any of the authors
that I recall.


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On 19 May 2012 19:00, Paul Wilson pw6...@gmail.com wrote:

  If held, the ORG need a concil to discuss standard, and a website to
  publish standard. I think most of the author who implemented markdown
  converter in any language could be the concil member, not only the
 original
  author (Because he has not been maintaining the syntax for so long
 time.).

 What impact would you expect (or require) this to have on the current
 varied Markdown
 implementations? I'm not sure that creating a bureaucracy in this manner
 would help
 all that much - yes, you could perhaps evolve a standard after substantial
 discussion,
 but what next?

 The current implementations serve a purpose for the authors, and the fact
 that they
 are all somewhat different is a reflection of the use that the authors put
 them to. A
 new standard would either (1) be a subset of all the existing
 implementations, or (2)
 a combination of all available options.

 (1) is not going to work for those who use existing conversion tools and
 rely on the
 features that your standard doesn't support. Why should they change what
 they need
 just because a committee says so?

 (2) is, frankly, going to be a mess. Your committee would have to choose
 between
 different syntax for very similar features, and that's going to alienate
 some of the
 development community.

 The likely outcome is (3) a supported feature list, more than minimal,
 less than the
 total. Somewhere between (1) and (2) above. And then, what about those who
 really
 want features not on your committee's list?

 I have some sympathy with what you're trying to achieve, but I don't think
 that a
 committee (which will inherently have no power) is the answer. I'd be
 interested to
 hear other opinions though.

 Regards,
 Paul
 --
 Software - secure, cheap, quick - choose any two

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Re: easiest markdown to PDF conversion

[Sherwood Botsford]

More info on page breaks:

http://www.htmlgoodies.com/beyond/css/article.php/3470341/CSS-and-Printing.htm

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/media.html

The w3.org site is the canonical source for web standards.  Fair tutorials
on many things too.

At first blush it appears to me that a properly written CSS style sheet
would handle simple headers/footers (including pagination) and TOC.

This changes the flow for MMD to PDF.  At present, my understanding is the
it goes MMD -XLT - Latex - PDF.

This would go MMD -XLT - HTML - PDF.

It's not clear to me how the last step could be done from the command line
with most browsers.

Note that support for paged media varies by browser engine.  See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28Cascading_Style_Sheets%29

Critically you don't have to support it universally -- if you want
printouts of your web pages, all you need is ONE with reasonable support.
From that you can easily crank out PDFs.  I would suggest for your trials
to test current versions of Opera (presto engine)  Chrome (Webkit) Firefox
(Gecko) and internet explorer (Tasman)

Webkit is used by a LOT of browsers.  I don;t know how uniform it between
browsers nor how fast development is proceeding.



I would strong suggest making a small sample doc and doing a bunch of
tests.  If you are on a Mac, using Print Preview will save much paper.



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Sherwood Botsford sgbotsf...@gmail.comwrote:

 Want web pages and printed output?  Take a look at this:

 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/boom


 Respectfully,

 Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

 Sherwood Botsford
 Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
 780-848-2548
 50042 Range Rd 31
 Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




 On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Fletcher Penney 
 fletc...@fletcherpenney.net wrote:


 On Feb 27, 2012, at 9:07 PM, David Sanson wrote:

  I assume MMD composer offers a built-in way to do this, but I'm not a
 user, so I'm not sure.

 Composer doesn't currently do this directly.  The standard MMD approach
 to generating a PDF is via LaTeX.  The results are high quality, but they
 can take some tinkering at times.  It also requires a LaTeX installation.

 Many users are perfectly satisfied with printing their HTML into a PDF.
  This is not my approach, but I am working on way to easily integrate this
 into Composer.

 In the meantime, Composer integrates well with Marked - a fantastic app
 for HTML previews, printing, styling, etc.  This is the recommended
 approach for users who want to print their HTML into a PDF.


 F-


 --
 Fletcher T. Penney
 fletc...@fletcherpenney.net


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Re: what will january 19th bring?

[Sherwood Botsford]

Today on Slashdot:

*At the Guggenheim Museum in New York, Apple announced on Thursday it
would update
its iBooks platform to include textbook
capabilitieshttp://www.ibtimes.com/articles/284470/20120119/apple-kills-textbook-ibooks-2-author.htmand
also added a new platform called iBooks Author, which lets anyone
easily create and publish their own e-books. Apple's senior VP of
marketing, Phil Schiller, introduced iBooks 2, which has a new textbook
experience for the iPad. The books themselves display larger images, and
searching content is made significantly easier: all users need to do is tap
on a word and they are taken straight to an appropriate glossary or index
section in the back of the book. Navigating pages and searching is also
easy and fluid, and at the end of each chapter is a full review with
questions and pictures. If you want the answers to the questions, all you
need to do is tap the question to get instant feedback. Apple also launched
the iBooks Author app, which lets anyone easily create any kind of textbook
and publish it to the iBookstore, and the new iTunes U platform, which
helps teachers and students communicate better, and even send each other
materials and notes created with iBooks Author. All of the apps are free,
and available for any and all students, from K-12 to major universities.

Links:
Story on IB times

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/284470/20120119/apple-kills-textbook-ibooks-2-author.htm
*
Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:53 PM, Alan Hogan alanho...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well, I appreciated the thread anyway, Bowerbird.

 ajh

 On Jan 19, 2012, at 7:54 PM, bowerb...@aol.com wrote:

  [heavy sigh.]
 
  ok, well, i guess it's time for me to go to work...
 
  -bowerbird
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Re: what will january 19th bring?

[Sherwood Botsford]

Pages isn't bad as a word processor.  Numbers, OTOH, drives me crazy.  I
want to like it.  But every time I try to so anything complicated, I end up
redoing it all in Excel.


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Alan Hogan alanho...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Jan 18, 2012, at 3:14 PM, bowerb...@aol.com wrote:

  how many of you use pages?  i thought not.)

 I actually really like it, largely because it  feels so much lighter,
 better-looking, and native than Word.

 I love the way Pages handles paragraph/heading styles. Like CSS (and like
 Word), but yet eminently Mac-like, quick, powerful, and intuitive.

 ajh
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Re: let's see what the app store says

[Sherwood Botsford]

Someone pee  in your cornflakes this morning?

I don't see the Bowerbird's post as a troll.  I found it informative.
Until I read that I didn't realize that there were *ANY* other markdown
like front ends other than the one that Fletcher was working on.

Mind you it's not a discussion I've followed with care.  My text editor of
choice is vim.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 4:00 AM, Christian Sciberras uuf6...@gmail.comwrote:

 I'm sure the world will dearly mourn the failures of markdown-based
 crAppStore apps.


 Now go troll somewhere else, kid.








 On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:36 PM, bowerb...@aol.com wrote:

 multimarkdown composer has been out for 4 weeks now,
 so let's mosey on over to the app store to see what it says...

 composer is #184 in productivity apps, a bit disappointing,
 considering that it was in the top-20 when it first came out...
 it's gained only 5 reviews over the 18 it had right off the bat.

 perhaps even more surprising, to some, is that marked is
 at #356 in productivity apps, which is a solid indication that
 the editing+display coupling produced by composer trumps
 the use-any-text-editor-you-like generality marked offers.
 (note also that marked is even at a much lower price-point.)

 and maybe the biggest surprise of all, to some, is the newish
 markdownnote, which appears at #115 in productivity apps.
 markdownnote has been available on ipad for a while, and
 is something of an enigma.  its big liability is that it supports
 nothing more than gruber's flawed formulation, but its asset
 is that it has the edit-on-one-side-with-display-on-the-other
 basic interface which i consider to be vital for this type of app.
 (you might recall that fletcher disagrees with me on this point.)

 markdownnote pulls off this _simple_interface_ better than
 any other app i've found so far, which might well help explain
 its good ranking, as there's little else of note in its feature-set.

 ***

 one other finding of significance is that a search for markdown
 returns 9 app-store hits now, revealing new high price-points of
 $10 (markdown pro), $20 (ulysses) and $25 (markmywords.)

 -bowerbird

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Re: start with the end-user -- the big secret

[Sherwood Botsford]

The Bowerbird monologues aren't as funny as Rick Mercer's Rants, but
sometimes it's close.  Keep him on the list for his entertainment value.


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Tao Klerks t...@klerks.biz wrote:

 Guys, this dude's been trolling online for years - I think there are only 2
 ways to deal with it:

 ** **

 1) Ignore the trolling/needling/offensiveness completely, and only respond
 when he has something useful to say (which does sometimes seem to happen, eg
 most of his review of Emmanuel's program)

 ** **

 2) Ban him from the list, if someone in charge of the list felt so inclined
 

 ** **

 3) If you're subscribing to the raw list, just filter out his messages**
 **

 ** **

 Asking please moderate your tone when he is clearly trying to offend (or,
 as he puts it somewhere online … i have a very colorful knack for
 choosing stimulating words ... words which might get that adrenaline running
 in someone), seems counter-productive. Publishing on your own blog limits
 you to an audience that's actually interested in what you have to say.
 Messing with people who can't easily ignore you is so much more fun!

 ** **

 I, for one, am using a gmail filter to mark his posts as read before they
 reach me - that way I don't confuse them for real email that might be
 worth looking at anytime soon.

 ** **

 (alright, so now I've wasted the list's time too. sorry.)

 ** **

 ** **

 *From:* markdown-discuss-boun...@six.pairlist.net [mailto:
 markdown-discuss-boun...@six.pairlist.net] *On Behalf Of *Már Örlygsson
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 6:30 PM
 *To:* Discussion related to Markdown.
 *Subject:* Re: start with the end-user -- the big secret

 ** **

  Would you please consider moving some of this to a personal blog or at
 least phrase your argument differently?

 +1 !


 --
 Már

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Re: doesn't that make you wonder?

[Sherwood Botsford]

Not a great example, as strong and emphasis are commutative tags.

Wait.

I take that back.  With CSS styling, they would not commute if both CSS
styles defined some of the same attributes.  E.g.   If strong was defined as
color:pink and emphasis was defined as color:green, they would no longer
commute.

Previously on this topic, the discussion turned to how to unify things.
Since we have no Authority, then building Concensus is what remains.

Does anyone have a ranking of MD variants by either pages or number of
users?

Would it be possible if not to come to a single MD spec, to at least reduce
the number of specifications.

E.g.  Suppose that Fletcher is open minded, and eager for consolidation.
Further suppose that MMD is the #4 variant.  He contacts #1,2,3, and 5, and
asks if as a group they can agree on a spec.  #2 says, stuffit, but 1,3 and
5 agree.  They get together, and modify the code.  Each introduces a flag,
-new to the command line (or preferences for apps) to support the new
syntax during the transition period.  Later on -new will be the default
behaviour, and -traditional is used for the current behaviour.

If agreement is reached, then the group looks at variants 6,7,8,9 and
inquires if they would like to join in this effort.


Part 2.

Has anyone collected a would-be canonical list of either the ambiguous cases
in original MD, or the variants between the versions of MD?

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:33 PM, John MacFarlane j...@berkeley.edu wrote:

 +++ Emmanuel Bégué [Oct 19 11 12:04 ]:

  But it's also not certain that the official approach would solve all
  problems. The first example you gave (*test  **test*  test**) is
  invalid Markdown and a formal specification could very well decide

 I don't think there's any such thing as invalid Markdown.
 At any rate, the syntax description does not define anything as
 invalid.  And markdown processors (at least those that I'm
 familiar with) don't ever give you an invalid markdown error.

 But if you don't like that example, consider this one:

 ***hello***

 Should this be

 strongemphhello/emph/strong

 or

 emphstronghello/strong/emph ?

 Nothing in the spec settles that.  This is just one of many, many
 examples one can come up with by considering precedence ambiguities.

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Re: Metadata syntax (was Universal syntax for Markdown)

[Sherwood Botsford]

Well if your dogs are like mine, they will eat practically anything.  Lately
in addition to their kibble they've been catching pocket gophers and mice.
A border collie is much less lovable with 'mouse breath'


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:39 PM, bowerb...@aol.com wrote:

 fletcher said:
For any consensus to come about,
I think we need to agree on the
fundamental purpose and philosophy of
the consensus we claim to be interested in.

 it would be nice.


Otherwise many of these discussions will
continue to occur without much hope of
moving forward to any actual outcome/resolution.

 yep.


it's just a bunch of us sitting around
explaining why we each think
our own dog food is the best.

 uh-huh.  and what's really ironic is that you're
 not even polling the general-public dogs you
 hope will eat the food that you're putting out...

 y'all seem to believe that they'll eat _anything_.


But in the meantime, MMD will continue to
march forward

 great to hear it!


a Mac OS X text editor with built-in MMD
   syntax highlighting, exporting, and editing
that I hope to release in the next month or two

 wha...  the next month or two?  what's the hold-up?


and I hope to put together a proof of concept
native MMD parser for iOS (built using the same code
as the desktop version) if no one else out there
beats me to it (which would be a welcome turn of events!)

 i don't understand why a parser has to be so hard...

 -bowerbird

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Re: fried fish, available, for free

[Sherwood Botsford]

And how do I type unicode quickly and easily?  Left arrow: Control-Alt-Meta
Coffecup-Right shift ?

In passing:  On my browser the two arrows you use are almost
indistinguishable from underscores to these tired eyes.

Table of contents could be easily handled with a pre-processor.  FrameMaker
had a neat feature where you could define certain paragraph styles as being
included in the ToC.  So, for example, you could define H1, H2, and H3 as
being ToC worthy

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Wander Nauta i...@wandernauta.nl wrote:

 Hi Bowerbird,

 I kinda dislike the c links as they indeed look like a HTML tag to
 me. You could try replacing them with Unicode arrows like ⟵ and ⟶  and
 something like ≡ for the table of contents. Or icons, if your
 underlying output formats support those.

 In my opinion, even expert users often like easy interfaces.

 Cheers,
 Wander

 On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 04:51, Arno Hautala a...@alum.wpi.edu wrote:
  On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 20:29,  bowerb...@aol.com wrote:
  arno said:
 
6. Is there a single capital letter on the page?
 
  i certainly hope not.  but every once in a while one slips in.
 
  OK, this is the only one that I could use some clarification on. Why
  is there no capitalization?
 
  --
  arno  s  hautala/-|   a...@alum.wpi.edu
 
  pgp b2c9d448
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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[Sherwood Botsford]

Interesting concept, but I think you have it partially reversed.

You want  php - codedown - web

I think it would be better:

codedown - php
codedown - markdown - web

One of the weaknesses for most programming is that people postpone writing
the documentation.

In one of the few programming courses I had, the instructor had us write the
user manual first.  THEN write the top level description of the program,
including documenting the algorithms.  ONLY then could we write the
program.  After we had to correct the previous levels.

There is a lot of merit in this for anything that is too complicated to fit
into a single file.

In addition this approach requires no changes to markdown.

Codedown then only has to recognize a different commenting style for
whatever language you are using, which I think would make it quick to write.





Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:17 AM, bucephalus org
bucephalus@gmail.comwrote:

 Dear Markdown enthusiasts out there!


 Sure, I don't need to tell you how great an versatile Markdown is for
 writing standard documents.
 I think, that it would make a really great universal standard as a
 programming documentation language, too, and maybe CodeDown would be a
 good title for this approach.


 The idea started when I was trying to document some PHP scripts. I need to
 use different programming languages for different purposes, but I am not a
 full time programmer. The problem is, that for most of these languages, the
 standard documentation tools are yet another language on their own, and I
 already have difficulties remembering the idioms of the programming
 languages. When I was working on the PHP scripts, I was looking for a
 standard tool to write some docs, but I was overwhelmed by phpDocumentor.

 In the past, I often used Perl's POD to write tutorials for some of my
 programs, and that always did a good job. But a while ago I discovered
 Markdown, and I found that even more convenient and intuitive. I thought, it
 would be very easy to use that as the format for literal programming in PHP:
 by a simple modification of the usual comment delimiters /* ... */ and // in
 PHP, these comments would become designated blocks for Markdown comments or
 delimiters for source code parts, that would appear in the documentation.
 The possibility these literal code blocks is an essential part of Donald
 Knuth's literal programming concept, and most standard documentation tools
 are not even capable of realizing that.

 In a first conversion step, these blocks would turn into Markdown, and in a
 second conversion step, the Markdown is converted to HTML.

   phpToMarkdown
  markdownToHtml
 PHP source code  -- Markdown
 -- HTML


 For the markdownToHtml function, I used Michel Fortin's PHP Markdown, so my
 actual converter is a pretty small script. I called it ElephantMark (see
 http://www-bucephalus-org.blogspot.com/2011/01/elephantmark.html) and the
 according script is its own documentation.


 This approach can be used for any mainstream programming language. My
 current favorite is Haskell, and I wrote a HaskellDown module, that does
 similar things for Haskell. The main converter is just a composition of two
 functions

 haskellToMarkdown
 markdownToHtml
 Haskell source code - Markdown
  HTML


 For the markdownToHtml part I used the very powerful Pandoc module, written
 by John MacFarlane.
 This week, I'll give a talk about it on a meeting of the Dutch Haskell User
 Group, and I intend to publish it, as soon as possible.


 During the preparations for the talk, I thought I should call the whole
 idea CodeDown, including Php(Code)Down as the CodeDown for PHP,
 PythonCodeDown as the CodeDown for Python, etc. There could even be a
 general CodeDown tool, that does the conversion for all these particular
 languages alltogether.



 But before I put any more work into this project, I would like to find out,
 if there is really a general interest or support for this idea. Please,
 don't spare on your comments, answers or questions.


 Greetings, Thomas
 (bucephalus.org)


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Re: ol start with a specific number?

[Sherwood Botsford]

Markdown support is sufficiently fragmented that anyone who moves MD files
from one system to another without checking may be justly said to be getting
what he deserves.

It's getting apparent that JG has little interest in further work on
markdown.  It is time to pretend that he has been abducted by aliens, and to
carry on without him.

I can see various things to happen from here:

1.  BabelMark could become the repository for dialect differences. Couple
BabelMark to a wiki.

2.  The various MD implementors could get together and define what is core
markdown.  This is the feature set that everyone supports or is willing to
support.

Core features could be supported OotB, or Conf   -- Out of the box, or by a
configuration file, or by a tag or flag in the file.

In particular the core group would define what behaviour should happen in
the edge cases where it currently is not well defined.

Thus constructs like the numbering issue earlier in this thread may have a
config file entry of:
LazyNumber = {traditional | initial }  #traditional -- always starts with 1,
initial starts with the first number provided.

With time it's hoped that more and more of the features drift into core.

Question:  If we look at the dialects of MD that account for, say, 90% of
the use, how many of the implementors of those are on this list?



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis pagalt...@gmx.dewrote:

 * Waylan Limberg way...@gmail.com [2011-04-07 04:15]:
  I'm not opposed to adding this, but I noticed that no other
  implementation (of those on Babelmark) implements this by
  default (not counting Pandoc's extended mode). I haven't
  checked if other implementations offer this as an option.

 John’s reason was that the `start` attribute was deprecated
 in HTML 4 Strict. He has since said at least once that this
 reasoning was flawed and the decision a mistake.

  My question is: should this be an option to turn on and off,
  and if so, should it be on or off by default?

 Bitter as it may be I think you would need to leave it off by
 default. Interoperability is important.

  Given that statement, it would seem that on by default and
  without an option to turn if off would be fine.

 I wish John would make another release to straighten out these
 handful of known tiny niggles… since his is the implementation
 that everyone else’s will follow.

  But what is the reality in the real world? If I did that, would
  a bunch of documents suddenly start rendering incorrectly - or
  at least different that expected? I guess the real question is:
  has everyone been ignoring that piece of advice in the docs and
  if so, is this something we should care about as implementors?

 It’s not that simple. Consider what happens if some user writes
 a document while previewing it with your implementation, which
 advertises itself as Markdown, then pastes it into the textarea
 in some web app, which also advertises Markdown support.

 Regards,
 --
 Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
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Re: Should leading and trailing spaces between backticks be preserved?

[Sherwood Botsford]

Many synthetic grammars have 'special characters'  Talking about special
characters of the grammar using the grammar has to involve some form of
escape mechanism.

You need to minimize the occurence of talking about the special characters
so they can do their work.

If I were to write a book about markdown, however, I don't think I'd want to
write it in markdown.  To many confusions between the this * is a literal
asterisk and *this* star is emphasized.  Except in that case the 'this' is
emphasized.  How _would_ you emphasize a single asterisk?
emphasis*/emphasis of course.

Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Arno Hautala a...@alum.wpi.edu wrote:

 On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 15:49, Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com
 wrote:
  Le 2011-02-13 à 15:31, David Chambers a écrit :
 
  Then what about ` ``foo`` ` ?

 In my mind that could be a beneficial feature of the different syntax.
 A single backtick doesn't strip space, double backticks do.

 --
 arno  s  hautala/-|   a...@alum.wpi.edu

 pgp b2c9d448
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Re: Hello

[Sherwood Botsford]

It took me a minute:  by script you mean movie/tv script.

I was under the impression there were a raft of specialized word processors
that did this very well.

Overall I don't think that MD would work for this, not without a huge raft
of modifications.  The *idea* of markdown would work well -- minimal syntax
then post processed into the format you want.

There are lots of systems for managing text files, and for managing
revisions of text files  google source code version control software.


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 4:04 PM, ipah i...@me.com wrote:

 New to mailing lists and Markup as well so please bear with me. I have been
 looking for two things. A project management system that syncs with
 Notational Velocity as well as something that lets me write and format
 script in plain text, then have that converted to the proper formatting for
 a script. I was wondering would Markdown have the ability to do this or have
 the changes necessary for this? If I am not being clear please let me know.
 Basically I want to write my scripts in plain text but add Markdown to each
 line so that when parsed at some point I get a perfectly formated script.
 For instance I would write.

 sl fade in

 Which would make this a proper slug line and covert all the characters to
 CAPS.

 Etc for the rest of the script and various formatting types.

 Thanks in advance.

 http://www.rh-y.me


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Re: Markdown development

[Sherwood Botsford]

Given the paucity of ETS editors, viewers, enabled browsers  however, I'm
afraid that I will insist on keeping my horse, at least until there is more
than two roads in town.  My horse will eat hay.  And who knows where the
next gas station is.

The bowerbird is half right.  Elastic tab stops are worthy of implementing.
But to keep the transition cost minimal the older way has to be supported
also.

I can see merit in having MD understand elastic tab stops as part of it's
goal toward minimalist markup.
It certainly would make simple tables easy to do.



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:11 PM, david parsons o...@pell.chi.il.us wrote:

 In article 1ffdc.6466484d.38dba...@aol.com,
  markdown-discuss@six.pairlist.net wrote:
 
 --===1294852797==
 Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=part1_1ffdc.6466484d.38dbaac4_boundary
 
 
 --part1_1ffdc.6466484d.38dbaac4_boundary
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 
 sherwood said:
 I don't understand.
 
 what's to understand?   :+)
 
 
 Are you saying that MD should recognize elastic tab stops
 in a file and convert that to a html table?
 
 yes, that's what i'm saying, or at least part of it.

 And this would convert markdown from a general-purpose writers tool
into some sort of boutique plugin.   I can't really see that this
would count as an advantage to _anyone_ who currently uses markdown.

-david parsons
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Re: Markdown development

[Sherwood Botsford]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:44 PM, bowerb...@aol.com wrote:

 albert said:
http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/

 for the win!  (i'd been wondering when someone would
 mention that again; i looked and couldn't find the u.r.l.)

 any further dialogs about tables should be shortcircuited
 with this link.  there's simply nothing to discuss any more.

 -bowerbird



I don't understand.

Are you saying that MD should recognize elastic tab stops in a file and
convert that to a html table?

This is certainly a possible route, but given the number of editors that
don't recognize elastic tab stops, this is daunting.  It also means that MD
needs to recognize at least two ways to do tables -- ets and markup.

Are you saying that browsers should all be smart enough to recognize elastic
tab stops?

While an admirable goal, I won't hold my breath for the day that 95% of
browsing is done with ETS capable browsers.
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Re: Markdown development

[Sherwood Botsford]

G. K. Chesterton commented, If something is worth doing, it's worth doing
badly

I like MMD's table syntax.  Not perfect.  Still a pain to construct,
especially if you want to keep the notion of having to look reasonable as
plain text.  But it *really* beats
tablethtd.../thtrtd/td.../tr.../table

My wishlist:

* Easy way to tell markdown to look in a file if it can't find link/image
references in the current file.  This would allow you to abstract a URL that
was referenced in several pages to a single ref.  In turn this makes changes
in the layout of a web site very easy.  At this point I can do it with
template toolkit and include files, but it's more than a bit
rube-goldbergish.  In the league with programmable candle powered hydralic
peanut butter spreaders.

* Easy way to modify the behaviour with certain tags.  According to the
spec, the contents of any HMTL tag are ignored.  Some dialects allow you to
put a flag in the tag to MD, but it has to be done for each use..  In
particular I want MD to *always* process the contents of div and generally
I think I want content processed more often than not even within an HTML
tag.  Fortunatley MMD considers upper case tags to be just text.  Which
means at present I'm dependent on the continued behaviour of a bug.


Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
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Re: Markdown development

[Sherwood Botsford]

Getting agreement on the corner tests should be easy. Most of the time the
corner test is odd enough that it never came up in a production environment,
and so deciding one way or another is less likely to break something.

Having an MD compliance test may be *the* way to go.

MD has forked.  20 times or so.  No way we are going to stuff that many
worms back into the can.

An MD standard, and such things as this list can rationalize the situation.

The end result is that the testing group IS MD.  Everything else is
implementations of MD.

So it's called Markdown Standards Group, -- MSG for short.

One possibilitiy is that we end up with a test similar to the ACID browser
test that checks compliance with W3C standards.  You end up with a score.

Another possibility is that you have a web page where each implementation's
differences from the standard are shown.

If the 'market penetration' of MD can be determined for each flavour, then
any feature that is present in X% of the market becomes a 'core' feature.
The best way to determine market penetration is to encourage developers to
set up a list (how 'bouth this one...' and use a vote.  Implementors would
be encouraged to put contact info for thie list in their source code and
documentation.

For a given feature and implementation:
*  It's implemented as per core standard.
*  It's implemented with quirks.  Quirks can be edge behaviour with special
cases, html code that presents itself the same visually, but is different
behind the scenes.  E.g.  MMD ignores blocks encased in div as per
standard, but wraps DIV in p tags and processes everything inside
normally.  I like this quirk, but I could do without the p tags.
*  Normal behaviour is different, but can be brought to standard with flags
or a configuration file  This allows variant implementations to get accepted
status without breaking their established base.
*  It doesn't meet the standard at all.

If you want to be true to JG's heritage, he is asked to rule on any specific
corner case of the original specification.  He's also asked to put a link to
the MSG web site on his MD page.  This gives him a say in what happens, and
is a graceful way for him to pass down his heritage without spending a lot
of time involved with it.

I think also that any web site put up should acknowledge JG, and have a link
back to Daring Fireball.

I think it wise to change the name, but it should be clearly derivative.
E.g.
* Markdown 2
* Markdown II
* Markdown NG
* MarqueDown



Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:33 AM, yy yiyu@gmail.com wrote:

 2010/3/17 david parsons o...@pell.chi.il.us:
 
There are markdown implementations in a dozen languages.   I am
unsure about how a common tool can be made here.
 

 What I would really like to see is a standard test suite, with a given
 input and the expected output, which we can test against the different
 implementations. Then, we would only have to agree on a core set of
 tests that every implementation has to pass to be considered markdown
 compatible and we could easily add tests for non-standard features.
 The difficult part is to decide if the most strange corner cases are
 implementation dependent, or how they must be handled (since I expect
 some differences between current implementations). Mdtest is probably
 the best starting point for such a task.

 --
 - yy.
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Re: No way to indent text?

[Sherwood Botsford]

DIV class=indent

indented stuff goes here.

/DIV

indent is styled in your css sheet.

Fireball's versions of markdown consider div to be an HTML tag but DIV
is just text.  So far every browser I've checked regards DIV and div to be
equivalent.

Just be darn sure that you match the tags or you will get very strange
looking pages.

-- 
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
[Note:  THREE s's in the web link]
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
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Re: Including external files

[Sherwood Botsford]

Template toolkit.

Here's a sample:

[% PROCESS header.inc
Title = Sherwood's Forests -- Almanac
Desc = Sherwood's Forests life at the tree farm.
%]
DIV id=content

[% FILTER multimarkdown %]

# Sherwood's Almanac
 Week starting 22 March 2009
***


[% PROCESS Copyright.inc %][% END %]

/div
[% INCLUDE footer.inc %]



That's the blank template I use for my blog.

PROCESS allows you to pass data to the include file.
INCLUDE just includes it verbatim with no processing by the template system.
Therer is also INSERT which works like process, but acts like it's
call-by-value instead
of call-by-reference for the name space.

In my case, header.inc  builds the menu, Copyright.inc  has the copyright
info and also a link back to the top of the page.
(My Bad: my pages tend to be 3-4 screens long.)

Footer has the document end and a couple of google Adsense boxes.


-- 
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548
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Multi-Markdown meta tag behaviour.

[Sherwood Botsford]

I'll admit I'm a bit confused about how MMD handles meta-tags in the
document to control it's own behaviour.

I tried to turn off id tag generation.

[% USE MultiMarkdown %]
[% FILTER multimarkdown %]
heading_ids:  0


All I get is a line saying heading_ids: 0 in my output.
So this is the first line being handed MMD, and a blank line after.
Obvious I'm missing something in the syntax.

For now I've hacked the default, as I think I prefer it that way.  But I can
see wehre overriding tags in the doc would be handy.

(id tags IMHO should be used sparingly as a means of formatting block
level elements)


-- 
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548
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Re: Paragraph tags around div blocks

[Sherwood Botsford]

I can now reproduce my problem very simply.

[% USE MultiMarkdown %]
[% FILTER multimarkdown %]

# Headline outside div

div id=content

# Headline inside div

/div

[% END %]

Produces:

h1 id=headlineoutsidedivHeadline outside div/h1

div id=content

# Headline inside div


/div


-- 
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548
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Re: Table of contents

[Sherwood Botsford]

Tables of contents should be generated automatically.  Maintaining
them by hand especially with electronic documents that are shall we
say, a bit unstable, is truly a PITA

FrameMaker had (may still have) a feature in which you could abstract
the content of styles from your document, and apply a different style
to use them in a TOC.

E.g. (Adapting language a bit here for the web world) You could
extract H1 through H6, stuff them in a file.  Then you apply an
appropriate CSS to them to make a reasonable looking TOC.

Two approaches occur to me:
1.  Put a label above headline. Context grep for lines in your
markdown files that start with #.  Use 1 line of previous context.
Perl script turns the  label plus the filename into a markdown URL link.

grep -r -B1 ^# tt2
...
tt2/Advice/Design/Landscaping.tt2-
tt2/Advice/Design/Landscaping.tt2:# Planning for Change
tt2/Advice/Design/Landscaping.tt2: or
tt2/Advice/Design/Landscaping.tt2:##Gee, Those Little Trees Look Silly
--
tt2/Advice/Design/Landscaping.tt2-don't notice.
tt2/Advice/Design/Landscaping.tt2: Lessons:
--
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2-
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2:# Principles of Design.
--
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2-
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2:##  Basic principles.
--
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2-
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2:   Repetition.
--
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2-
tt2/Advice/Design/Design_Principles.tt2:   Alternation
--


You'll note that I was being clever and cute and used headlines to do
something stylistic. My Bad.

Approaches you could take for this:
* Only index headlines that have a label on them.
* multiple successive headlines are glommed together for indexing. If
the secondary heads are in different size, then they are shown in
parentheses.


The otehr approach is to look for the label, then take the line
immediately following that.  If you are consistent, you would be able
to pull lists of figures, photos, tables and equations from your
documents this way.


-- 
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548
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Re: Table of contents

[Sherwood Botsford]

The bird is right on this one.  You want easy ways to navigate, and
multiple ones to navigate.

I *don't* think that markdown is the place for this however.

I find working even with Markdown to put a picture in a file is slow
and awkward.  You want to avoid this level of detail while you are
writing.
You want to write, not tweak brackets and braces and such. Don't turn
MD into the mess that HTML is.

I think this is better approached by your page generating software.
Consider:
Write your basic markdown.
Labelmaker goes through your markdown, and any header lines get an
auto generated label put before them to create an anchor.
Labelmaker is customized to look for sequences like ### Table and
# Figure and do the right thing.

The previous-toc-next links are handled by your templating software.

Now you are just writing markdown.

the only thing I'd add to markdown would be a good mechanism for
resolving links externally, so that if you rename a file, you don't
have to back trace all the files that reference them.  Again this
should be programmed.  You put the link in normally the first time.  A
program pulls the links out, puts a 'external reference link' tag in
markdown, and adds this to the external link.  Ideally it's smart
enough taht if you reference something several times, it reuses the
tag.  Now if you rename or move a file, you only have to fix it in the
single external links file.




-- 
Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0
http://www.sherwoods-forests.com
780-848-2548
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Re: Desktop app for viewing Markdown files

[Sherwood Botsford]

Most of the point of Markdown is that it can be viewed/edited in any
simple text editor.
Try TextEdit, SimpleText, or from the command-line (terminal window)
vi.  Lots of Mac geeks use an editor that starts with BB (BBedit?)

In my usage markdown text is only viewed by me.  I use it in
combination with template toolkit.  Others use it with various content
management systems.  The idea is that the writer is separated from
worrying about a raft of html tags, and uses visual hints in his text
to tell the html generator what to do.  Many of these traditions come
from text only communication such as email before HTML email came
along, and usenet.
E.g. using asterisks to indicate *emphasis*.

In a more general sense, most of us can't worry about content and
format at the same time and do a good job of both.  You can sort of do
it in a good word processor if you take the time when you start a
project to define a good set of styles.  I have yet to find such an
editor that writes HTML code that isn't grossly bloated.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Jan Erik Moström li...@mostrom.pp.se wrote:
 Is there a file/document browser that render and display Markdown files?
 (for the Mac)

                        jem

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Re: A Modest Definition List Proposal (David E. Wheeler)

[Sherwood Botsford]

         id |  name   |  description     |      more info
        |=|==|=
          6 | Inset   | An inset element | just one element
        |-|--|-
          8 | Stories | Another element  | another element
            |         |                  | with 2 lines
        |-|--|-
          9 | Other   | Another element  | another element
            |         |                  | with 2 lines
        |-|--|-
          5 | Illust. | An illustration  | line breaks are not
            |         | andn I think you | possible in a table
            |         | know what I mena.|

 This is totally unambiguous and easy to scan for the reader. The problem is
 that, even though it's easy to read, it's also more tedious to write.


One minor change.  You don't need pipes in the horizontal separator lines.  E.g:
id |  name   |  description |  more info


I suspect that if you were going to write a lot of tables, you'd write
a perl program that would take an existing table that you slopped
together, and would fix the spacing of pipes on all the lines to match
the pipe spacing on the first line.

Tables are critters where formatting is tangled with content.  And
with proportional type, a text only system requires agreement on tab
spacing at minimum to get anything to look right. (I'm not a fan of
monospace, so all these examples are wonky.)

Add to this, the need for centering, the need for column spans.

Allignment could be done with your horizontal separators.

|---|  Means use your default alignment. (Same as cell above)
|| Means left alignment.  The  can appear anywhere between the |'s
|--| Means right alignment.
|-=| means center alignment.

Column spans could be done by replacing the pipe with an underscore.
|=_===|
|This is a cell that spans two|
columns, and is centred.
|--|--|
|Column 1  |Column 2|

I'm working in a proportional font, so the above example is sure to be wonky.

Note that these two ideas are contradictory.

To merge, them (makes reading slightly harder, but writing slightly easier.

| Default alignment |
| Left Alignment |
| Right Alignment |
|= Centered alignment =|

The alignment tags don't have to be paired, but can be for eye candy purposes.


|| Spans two columns of the stuff below |
|  Column 1 | Column 1 |



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Sherwood's Forests
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Re: A Modest Definition List Proposal (David E. Wheeler)

[Sherwood Botsford]

 If you're going to write a Perl program for creating Markdown tables, why
 not create tables in HTML directly? It'd be a lot simpler to write a
 converter for that, and it would avoid cluttering the syntax with something
 you need a special program to make anyway.

Depends on how you use the program.  I end up doing most of my actual
coding in vi. In vi I write markdown source, because it's quick, I can
sort of see how it lays out, and I don't worry about a billion html
tags.  I spend my time writing content, not matching tags.

In my other writing I use par a lot.  This is a program to reformat
ascii text.  It can do clever things like reformat email with multiple
quoted levels, to different line lengths without sprinkling 's
everywhere midline.

If you are a dedicated markdown user, a perl program that you can pipe
a table through to put it in whatever syntax your favorite version of
markdown likes, AND such a program removes a lot of the tedium of
adjusting the space so that you, the writer can live with it, you have
a win.

I don't want to have a separate source file for my table, nor do I
want to include an html table in my markdown.  I want a perl command,
or vi macro that takes bad table text (from markdown's view, and my
personal view) and turns it into good table text.  KIS

Tables are complicated.  How they are represented in simple text is
going to be a compromise between control and legibility.
The idea solution would be one that maximizes legibility in simple
cases while allowing control short of full html code where the author
needs it.




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Sherwood's Forests
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780-848-2548
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Re: list corner case

[Sherwood Botsford]

I'll admit the interpretation of

1.  foo
*   baz
-   bar
-   biff
*   qix
-   qak
7. qux

as a single list counter intuitive.

My gut feel for that, after having used markdown.pl with ttree for a few
months is that this would be a three level nested list.  I KNOW that's not
what the docs say.

But the philosophy of markdown is that of an email message.  Who changes
bullets in the middle of a list? And since indents in email are normally
used for quoting, I expect the above to be shorthand for

1. foo
  * baz
- bar
- biff
  * qix
- qak
2.  qux
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Re: Markdown Extra Specification (First Draft)

[Sherwood Botsford]

As a suggestion for the next pass at this, add an example of each, and 
how it should be rendered.

I found fireball's web site fairly lucid for this.

E.g.
Example abbreviation definition
*[TLA] :Three Letter Acronym

Note, If I'm reading this correctly then
* [TLA]: Three Letter Acronym

would be incorrect, as there is a space after the asterisk and after the 
colon.

It's also not clear if this critter has to appear on a line by itself.

If the abbreviation is long enough that it spans line ends, is that ok?

* [ODITLOID]: A Day in the Life of Ivan
Denisovich (Alexander Solzhenitsyn)



***
A lot of the critters that appear as references aren't clear about how they
appear in the text, and how they appear when resolved. The footnote
dfinition starts with [^ but does the footnote in the text also start 
that way?


2.2.1 Link Reference

Quote:
A link reference is alone on a line. It begins with the reference name 
inside square brackets, optionally followed by a space or a 
no-break-space, a colon, a URI (either enclosed in angle brackets or 
not), and an optional title enclosed in single or double quotes, or in 
parenthesis (which can be preceded by a newline).




four things:
1. Sometimes the link is *(@*^(^ long. So if I'm editing with vi, I 
have everything else in 60-70 column
lines, then this great bloody honker. I'd like an optional syntax for 
breaking a long URI into chunks.


Eg. the usual unix convention of \ with optional trailing whitespace
means continued on next line, with the \ and whitespace going to the bit 
bucket.


2. I'd like some way to hook references to an external file, or database 
lookup instead of doing them internally.


3. Why three versions of quoting characters for the title?

4. Why the  around the URI?

5. Only if you put the title in () can you start on a newline?

2.2.2 Abbreviation
Again, I'd like a hook so that I can put these in an external file. In 
my tree farm web page I'd like to use botanical descriptions, but be 
able to let users see the definition on mouse over or click. But the 
word 'glabrous' may appear on 40 pages. Be nice if I only had to define 
it once. If someone is creating an annotated Shakespeare they would want 
to use an Elizabethan English dictionary as their external file, style 
it so that defined words are barely different from the text, and let the 
confused reader click for enlightenment.


2.2.2 footnotes

Note possible numbering error both abbreviation and footnotes are 2.2.2

How does the footnote appear in the text? For clarity in reading, all 
the things that refer to something else

should be visible different. E.g. In markdown we presently have
[link text ][LINKREF]
![Image alt text][IMGREF]
so
^[FOOTNOTE] (although I'd prefer _[FOOTNOTE] as it tells me it's below 
the ruler line at the bottom of the page)
Except from your text it appears it should be [^FOOTNOTE] which is at 
odds with the image and abbreviation

syntax.
How are footnotes numbered?

I think you could make a case for a footnote being the child of the 
block element that the reference appears in.
This may potentially allow clever people with CSS to have the footnote 
appear as a sidebar div, adjacent to the reference.


2.3.7 Table syntax

Suggested syntax
[TT] Table title
|[TH] elements | separated by pipes | with white space | on either side |
| anything | that | appears | with | leading and trailing |
| is | formated | as a | table row|

| This cell spans two columns | and | so forth|
| This cell also spans two columns | and | so forth|
| This cell spans three columns | in the | table |
| This cell spans two rows | in the | table|
|   | because it has ditto marks | in the cell below |

Since many tables are done without a title or header, the pipe syntax is 
the usual.

You can spent some time pretty printing it.
Suggested implementation would have warnings when the number of cells 
per row is inconsistent.


2.4.2 and 2.4.3 Emphasis and strong emphasis.
The current markdown uses either _ or * for emphasis and any combination 
of the two
doubled for strong emphasis. I suggested that * be used for strong 
(default bold) and _ be used for emphasis.
(default italic) This gives three combinations possible with the same 
set of symbols, and fits the general

intuitive nature of markdown.

2.4.6 Hard line break
This one bites me regularly, as I learned to touch type in high school 
and to end a sentence with
a period followed by two spaces. This means that every time I end a 
sentence on a line end, I
get an involuntary break. Lots of head scratching over this one. I don't 
like markup that depends on invisible

trailing characters.

I would favour ending a line with a forward slash. You sometimes see 
this in poetry where line length exceeds
the column width. And it has an easy mnuemonic: If a back slash means 
concatenate the next line onto this one

then forward slash means, force the line break here.

Thus my address would appear

Sherwood Botsford /
RR 1 Site 2

Re: Feature Request External label resolution

[Sherwood Botsford]

Allan Odgaard wrote:

On 20 Apr 2008, at 00:28, Sherwood Botsford wrote:


[...]
Suppose that markdown was clever enough to reference an external
file (in .markdownrc of course) for the resolution of LABEL.


Here’s a simple shell script to convert all markdown to HTML and using a 
shared references file:


cd ~/MySite/pages

for f in *.mdown; do
cat $f references|Markdown.pl  ../html/${f%.mdown}.html
done

I use something like that myself where I also have a command to update 
my references list, that is, grep through the pages for undefined 
references and add these to the references file (where I will then need 
to add the URI).




Hmm.  Ok, I think I could to it this way in Template Toolkit:

[% INCLUDE Header.inc %]
]% USE Markdown %]
[% FILTER Markdown %]
div class=content

blah blah blah

/div
[% INSERT References.inc %]

[% END %]

[% INCLUDE Footer.inc %]

Downside is then that Markdown has to process every reference
which if you have a few thousand will be time consuming.
(I have an INSERT text at one point that jsut in template toolkit
takes 10-12 seconds to do. It's only a thousand lines, but there
is zero processing to do, it just stuffs it into the file.
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Re: Feature Request External label resolution

[Sherwood Botsford]

Fletcher T. Penney wrote:

You could do something like:

cat myfile.txt refs.txt | MultiMarkdown.pl  myfile.html


F-

On Apr 20, 2008, at 10:40 AM, John MacFarlane wrote:

Pandoc concatenates input from all files specified on the command
line.  So you can just do:

   pandoc myfile.txt refs.txt  myfile.html

Seems to me that this would be a reasonable default behavior for
Markdown.pl as well, but it doesn't seem to work that way now.

John







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I've had several people who have suggested this as a valid
solution.  It makes sense if you have a few dozen links.
And if I was sufficiently clever, I could break the site down
so that references were in a bunch of refs.txt files, and no
refs.txt file would have mroe than a few dozen links.

However I don't know how to partition my site in such a way.

If refs.txt has 2000 links in it, and every file
has to parse the entire refs file, it takes a long time.
As the site grows, processing time will grow quadratically.
(If I double the number of files, it will also double the number 
of links.  So a site that is twice as big will have

also have twice as many links.

At present I have a small site with 117 pages and 183 links.
Given that  In a year I figure the link count will be over a 
thousand.


At present I have one file that has a 1000 line table (including
all the tags on separate lines)  When TemplateToolkit / markdown
hit this file there is a 10 - 15 second pause.  Since TT is doing
it as an INSERT, not as an INCLUDE, TT isn't even looking at the 
file, so I think it's Markdown scanning this file looking for

tags that is causing the delay.  If a thousand line file with no
partial matches is slowing down Markdown this much, I would
expect that a file with 997 non-matching label/url lines and 3
matching label/url lines would cause considerably greater delay.

So perhaps I should ask a more general question:

How do you deal with large numbers of links?
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Feature Request External label resolution

[Sherwood Botsford]

One of the things I'm coming up against.  Maintaining a non-small
web site with many internal links is a pain.

Consider:

Suppose that at one point I have

site/
  Images
  Business
  Home
  ...

Later the site gets more complex, and Images has a bunch of sub 
directories.

site/
  Images
header_rotate
inventory_pix
misc
  Business
  Home

When this happens I have to change the link for every pic
on every page.  If I use an image in 6 places, I have to
change it in 6 places.

HOWEVER

Suppose I cleverly used the footnote form of links.

I.e:

[Image alt text][LABEL]

Suppose that markdown was clever enough to reference an external
file (in .markdownrc of course) for the resolution of LABEL.

NOW when I re-arrange the universe, I only have to change the 
reference in this one file, NOT in every file that references it.


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