Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[bucephalus org]

Hi Bob, hi Waylan,

There seems to be no end in good news  I definitely need to study all
that. Thank you very much!

What I like in Markdown, compare to other lightweight-markups and in this
context of program documentation, is the two little, but very useful
features: backticks around a phrase turn it into code (i.e. `f(n)` turns
into f(n)) and the indentation of tabs or four spaces turns a
code block  into  This is probably the most
convenient markup for inline and block code, one can imagine. Even more
natural than the LaTeX $...$ for inline and $$...$$ for block code.


On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Waylan Limberg  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Rob McBroom 
> wrote:
> > On Apr 11, 2011, at 5:46 PM, David Chambers wrote:
> >
> > Check out Jeremy Ashkenas's docco. Truly beautiful.
> >
> > People might also be interested in appledoc, which uses Discount to parse
> > comments.
>
> There is also Apydia [1], which uses Python-Markdown (or textile or
> reStructuredText) on Python code.
>
> However, the really powerful documentation library in Python (also
> supports C/C++ with other language promised to be coming) is Sphinx
> [2]. Unfortunately, is uses reStructuredText, not Markdown. Now, if
> someone created a similar tool that used Markdown, that would be
> something.
>
> The great thing about Sphinx is that while is can extract comments
> from the source, it is primarily meant to write documentation separate
> from the source - which should almost always be a projects primary
> documentation. The automatically-generated-from-source reference
> should usually be in addition to the primary documentation. At least,
> that is if you want a well documented project.
>
> [1]: http://apydia.ematia.de/index.html
> [2]: http://sphinx.pocoo.org/
>
> --
> 
> \X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
> Waylan Limberg
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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[Waylan Limberg]

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Rob McBroom  wrote:
> On Apr 11, 2011, at 5:46 PM, David Chambers wrote:
>
> Check out Jeremy Ashkenas's docco. Truly beautiful.
>
> People might also be interested in appledoc, which uses Discount to parse
> comments.

There is also Apydia [1], which uses Python-Markdown (or textile or
reStructuredText) on Python code.

However, the really powerful documentation library in Python (also
supports C/C++ with other language promised to be coming) is Sphinx
[2]. Unfortunately, is uses reStructuredText, not Markdown. Now, if
someone created a similar tool that used Markdown, that would be
something.

The great thing about Sphinx is that while is can extract comments
from the source, it is primarily meant to write documentation separate
from the source - which should almost always be a projects primary
documentation. The automatically-generated-from-source reference
should usually be in addition to the primary documentation. At least,
that is if you want a well documented project.

[1]: http://apydia.ematia.de/index.html
[2]: http://sphinx.pocoo.org/

-- 

\X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\|
Waylan Limberg
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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[Rob McBroom]

On Apr 11, 2011, at 5:46 PM, David Chambers wrote:

> Check out Jeremy Ashkenas's docco. Truly beautiful.

People might also be interested in appledoc, which uses Discount to parse 
comments.

-- 
Rob McBroom


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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[bucephalus org]

Hi Tommy!


> I just must say that I have tried Fletcher Penneys version of multi
> markdown recently.

The 3.x version seems to me to be very suitable for the task of converting
> to LaTeX,
> which is slightly more complicated than converting to HTML.
>

Wow! I didn't know MultiMarkdown, but that is a great hint. Looks very
promising and capable. Thank you!

The Markdown entry on Wikipedia
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown
doesn't point to
  http://fletcherpenney.net/multimarkdown/
yet. But it probably should.


> I have tried pandoc, but I find it far more easier to work with
> multimarkdown.
>
> You should consider trying it.
>

 I use Pandoc for my HaskellDown, because it is a Haskell library. It also
is very powerful and impressive, and in my limited experience, I found it
very stable and more reliable than e.g. PHP Markdown. Actually, I don't
apply any of its nice features (like automatic toc generation) at all in the
default markdownToHaskell converter, I just use all the Pandoc default
settings, for the sake of simplicity. But I agree, Tommy, I, too, didn't
find Pandoc itself easily accessible.

Thank you, again.
Thomas
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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[Tommy Bollman]

Hello.

I just must say that I have tried Fletcher Penneys version of multi markdown 
recently.
The 3.x version seems to me to be very suitable for the task of converting to 
LaTeX, 
which is slightly more complicated than converting to HTML. 
I have tried pandoc, but I find it far more easier to work with multimarkdown.

You should consider trying it.

Tommy

Den 11. apr. 2011 kl. 18.17 skrev bucephalus org:

> Dear Markdown enthusiasts out there!
> 
> 
> Sure, I don't need to tell you how great an versatile Markdown is for
> writing standard documents.
> I think, that it would make a really great universal standard as a
> programming documentation language, too, and maybe "CodeDown" would be a
> good title for this approach.
> 
> 
> The idea started when I was trying to document some PHP scripts. I need to
> use different programming languages for different purposes, but I am not a
> full time programmer. The problem is, that for most of these languages, the
> standard documentation tools are yet another language on their own, and I
> already have difficulties remembering the idioms of the programming
> languages. When I was working on the PHP scripts, I was looking for a
> standard tool to write some docs, but I was overwhelmed by phpDocumentor.
> 
> In the past, I often used Perl's POD to write tutorials for some of my
> programs, and that always did a good job. But a while ago I discovered
> Markdown, and I found that even more convenient and intuitive. I thought, it
> would be very easy to use that as the format for literal programming in PHP:
> by a simple modification of the usual comment delimiters /* ... */ and // in
> PHP, these comments would become designated blocks for Markdown comments or
> delimiters for source code parts, that would appear in the documentation.
> The possibility these literal code blocks is an essential part of Donald
> Knuth's literal programming concept, and most standard documentation tools
> are not even capable of realizing that.
> 
> In a first conversion step, these blocks would turn into Markdown, and in a
> second conversion step, the Markdown is converted to HTML.
> 
>  phpToMarkdown
> markdownToHtml
>PHP source code  --> Markdown
> --> HTML
> 
> 
> For the markdownToHtml function, I used Michel Fortin's PHP Markdown, so my
> actual converter is a pretty small script. I called it ElephantMark (see
> http://www-bucephalus-org.blogspot.com/2011/01/elephantmark.html) and the
> according script is its own documentation.
> 
> 
> This approach can be used for any mainstream programming language. My
> current favorite is Haskell, and I wrote a HaskellDown module, that does
> similar things for Haskell. The main converter is just a composition of two
> functions
> 
>haskellToMarkdown
> markdownToHtml
>Haskell source code -> Markdown
> > HTML
> 
> 
> For the markdownToHtml part I used the very powerful Pandoc module, written
> by John MacFarlane.
> This week, I'll give a talk about it on a meeting of the Dutch Haskell User
> Group, and I intend to publish it, as soon as possible.
> 
> 
> During the preparations for the talk, I thought I should call the whole idea
> "CodeDown", including "Php(Code)Down" as the CodeDown for PHP,
> "PythonCodeDown" as the CodeDown for Python, etc. There could even be a
> general CodeDown tool, that does the conversion for all these particular
> languages alltogether.
> 
> 
> 
> But before I put any more work into this project, I would like to find out,
> if there is really a general interest or support for this idea. Please,
> don't spare on your comments, answers or questions.
> 
> 
> Greetings, Thomas
> (bucephalus.org)
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Best regards



Tommy Bollman
--
Mollison's Bureaucracy Hypothesis:
If an idea can survive a bureaucratic review
and be implemented it wasn't worth doing.

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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[Thomas Humiston]

On 11 Apr 2011, at 3:05 PM, Sherwood Botsford wrote:

In one of the few programming courses I had, the instructor had us  
write the user manual first.  THEN write the top level description  
of the program, including documenting the algorithms.  ONLY then  
could we write the program.  After we had to correct the previous  
levels.



Fantastic. As a general principle, that sounds like probably the only  
way to keep the inmates from running the asylum if they're not using  
Alan Cooper's 'personas' approach (detailed in his book "The Inmates  
Are Running the Asylum").

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Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[David Chambers]

Check out Jeremy Ashkenas 's
docco.
Truly beautiful.

David


On 11 April 2011 13:32, bucephalus org  wrote:

> Hi Sherwood,
>
> Thank you very much for your interest and reply!
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Sherwood Botsford 
> wrote:
>
>> Interesting concept, but I think you have it partially reversed.
>>
>> You want  php -> codedown -> web
>>
>> I think it would be better:
>>
>> codedown -> php
>> codedown -> markdown -> web
>>
>
> I am not sure, if I understand what you mean. But I am under the
> impression, that maybe you don't understand what the general idea of
> CodeDown is. There is not separate code called "CodeDown", that could or
> should be translated into PHP or Markdown. There is only the source code of
> a particular given programming language, say PHP.
>
> Consider the following simple script, called `example.php`, comprising the
> following code
>
>  /*
> tripleThis($n) returns the three-fold of the given number $n.
> */
> function tripleThis ($n) {
>   return 3 * $n;
> }
> ?>
>
> This is plain standard PHP, with one comment between /*...*/.
> I can run this through my ElephantMark converter, like so
>
> php elephantmark.php example.php
>
> and that returns an empty HTML document, pretty much like this
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> You can also run the example.php script itself and use the triple()
> function, as usual with PHP!
>
> The thing is, that a little modification of the script (in fact, there are
> three simple syntax rules), turns it into a potential self-documentation of
> the script. But note, that the script as PHP script is totally unchanged!
>
> For example, by turning the ordinary command /*...*/ into what I called a
> Markdown block /*** ... ***/, allows us to apply proper Markdown (as a
> super-set of HTML). And putting the function definition between two lines of
> // // // makes that part a literal block.
> So our modified example.php is now say
>
> 
> /***
> # A nice function
>
> `tripleThis($n)` returns the three-fold of the given number `$n`.
>
> Its implementation is as follows:
> ***/
>
> // // //
> function tripleThis ($n) {
>   return 3 * $n;
> }
> // // //
>
> ?>
>
> If we now run the same command
>
> php elephantmark.php example.php
>
> the output will be a HTML  document
>
> 
> 
> A nice function
> 
>   tripleThis($n) returns the three-fold of the given
> number $n$.
> 
> 
>   Its implementation is as follows:
> 
> function tripleThis($n) {
>   return 3 * $n;
> }
> 
> 
> 
>
> So this is a HTML document generated from the PHP source, which is thus
> both, a PHP script and its own documentation.
> (I left away the intermediate step, that the script is first translated
> into Markdown, and that is then translated into HTML. But the normal user
> will not need this intermediate Markdown step.)
>
>
>
>> One of the weaknesses for most programming is that people postpone writing
>> the documentation.
>>
>> In one of the few programming courses I had, the instructor had us write
>> the user manual first.  THEN write the top level description of the program,
>> including documenting the algorithms.  ONLY then could we write the
>> program.  After we had to correct the previous levels.
>
>
> This is exactly the way I personally use my ElephantMark (or PhpCodeDown)
> all the time! Both the PHP program and its HTML documentation can grow
> gradually and simultaneously, and both have the same single source file!
>
>
>>
>
> There is a lot of merit in this for anything that is too complicated to fit
>> into a single file.
>>
>> In addition this approach requires no changes to markdown.
>>
>> Codedown then only has to recognize a different commenting style for
>> whatever language you are using, which I think would make it quick to write.
>>
>
> I am not sure again, if I understand this last part. But maybe, it only
> makes sense in your interpretation.
>
>
> Thank you again, Sherwood, for your comment.
> I think, for people knowing Markdown, the CodeDown idea is all too simple:
> you just need one, two, or three syntax rules concerning the modification of
> comments in the original programming language. And just that makes it so
> universal and easy.
> But maybe, it is so simple, that it is too difficult for me to explain.
>
> Greetings,
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:17 AM, bucephalus org > gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Markdown enthusiasts out there!
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure, I don't need to tell you how great an versatile Markdown is for
>>> writing standard documents.
>>> I think, that it would make a really great universal standard as a
>>> programming documentation language, too, and maybe "CodeDown" would be a
>>> good title for this approach.
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea started when I was trying to document some PHP scripts. I nee

Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[bucephalus org]

Hi Sherwood,

Thank you very much for your interest and reply!

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Sherwood Botsford wrote:

> Interesting concept, but I think you have it partially reversed.
>
> You want  php -> codedown -> web
>
> I think it would be better:
>
> codedown -> php
> codedown -> markdown -> web
>

I am not sure, if I understand what you mean. But I am under the impression,
that maybe you don't understand what the general idea of CodeDown is. There
is not separate code called "CodeDown", that could or should be translated
into PHP or Markdown. There is only the source code of a particular given
programming language, say PHP.

Consider the following simple script, called `example.php`, comprising the
following code



This is plain standard PHP, with one comment between /*...*/.
I can run this through my ElephantMark converter, like so

php elephantmark.php example.php

and that returns an empty HTML document, pretty much like this






You can also run the example.php script itself and use the triple()
function, as usual with PHP!

The thing is, that a little modification of the script (in fact, there are
three simple syntax rules), turns it into a potential self-documentation of
the script. But note, that the script as PHP script is totally unchanged!

For example, by turning the ordinary command /*...*/ into what I called a
Markdown block /*** ... ***/, allows us to apply proper Markdown (as a
super-set of HTML). And putting the function definition between two lines of
// // // makes that part a literal block.
So our modified example.php is now say



If we now run the same command

php elephantmark.php example.php

the output will be a HTML  document



A nice function

  tripleThis($n) returns the three-fold of the given number
$n$.


  Its implementation is as follows:

function tripleThis($n) {
  return 3 * $n;
}




So this is a HTML document generated from the PHP source, which is thus
both, a PHP script and its own documentation.
(I left away the intermediate step, that the script is first translated into
Markdown, and that is then translated into HTML. But the normal user will
not need this intermediate Markdown step.)



> One of the weaknesses for most programming is that people postpone writing
> the documentation.
>
> In one of the few programming courses I had, the instructor had us write
> the user manual first.  THEN write the top level description of the program,
> including documenting the algorithms.  ONLY then could we write the
> program.  After we had to correct the previous levels.


This is exactly the way I personally use my ElephantMark (or PhpCodeDown)
all the time! Both the PHP program and its HTML documentation can grow
gradually and simultaneously, and both have the same single source file!


>

There is a lot of merit in this for anything that is too complicated to fit
> into a single file.
>
> In addition this approach requires no changes to markdown.
>
> Codedown then only has to recognize a different commenting style for
> whatever language you are using, which I think would make it quick to write.
>

I am not sure again, if I understand this last part. But maybe, it only
makes sense in your interpretation.


Thank you again, Sherwood, for your comment.
I think, for people knowing Markdown, the CodeDown idea is all too simple:
you just need one, two, or three syntax rules concerning the modification of
comments in the original programming language. And just that makes it so
universal and easy.
But maybe, it is so simple, that it is too difficult for me to explain.

Greetings,
Thomas






>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:17 AM, bucephalus org  > wrote:
>
>> Dear Markdown enthusiasts out there!
>>
>>
>> Sure, I don't need to tell you how great an versatile Markdown is for
>> writing standard documents.
>> I think, that it would make a really great universal standard as a
>> programming documentation language, too, and maybe "CodeDown" would be a
>> good title for this approach.
>>
>>
>> The idea started when I was trying to document some PHP scripts. I need to
>> use different programming languages for different purposes, but I am not a
>> full time programmer. The problem is, that for most of these languages, the
>> standard documentation tools are yet another language on their own, and I
>> already have difficulties remembering the idioms of the programming
>> languages. When I was working on the PHP scripts, I was looking for a
>> standard tool to write some docs, but I was overwhelmed by phpDocumentor.
>>
>> In the past, I often used Perl's POD to write tutorials for some of my
>> programs, and that always did a good job. But a while ago I discovered
>> Markdown, and I found that even more convenient and intuitive. I thought, it
>> would be very easy to use that as the format for literal programming in PHP:
>> by a simple modification of the usual comment delimite

Re: CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[Sherwood Botsford]

Interesting concept, but I think you have it partially reversed.

You want  php -> codedown -> web

I think it would be better:

codedown -> php
codedown -> markdown -> web

One of the weaknesses for most programming is that people postpone writing
the documentation.

In one of the few programming courses I had, the instructor had us write the
user manual first.  THEN write the top level description of the program,
including documenting the algorithms.  ONLY then could we write the
program.  After we had to correct the previous levels.

There is a lot of merit in this for anything that is too complicated to fit
into a single file.

In addition this approach requires no changes to markdown.

Codedown then only has to recognize a different commenting style for
whatever language you are using, which I think would make it quick to write.





Respectfully,

Sherwood of Sherwood's Forests

Sherwood Botsford
Sherwood's Forests --  http://Sherwoods-Forests.com
780-848-2548
50042 Range Rd 31
Warburg, Alberta T0C 2T0




On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:17 AM, bucephalus org
wrote:

> Dear Markdown enthusiasts out there!
>
>
> Sure, I don't need to tell you how great an versatile Markdown is for
> writing standard documents.
> I think, that it would make a really great universal standard as a
> programming documentation language, too, and maybe "CodeDown" would be a
> good title for this approach.
>
>
> The idea started when I was trying to document some PHP scripts. I need to
> use different programming languages for different purposes, but I am not a
> full time programmer. The problem is, that for most of these languages, the
> standard documentation tools are yet another language on their own, and I
> already have difficulties remembering the idioms of the programming
> languages. When I was working on the PHP scripts, I was looking for a
> standard tool to write some docs, but I was overwhelmed by phpDocumentor.
>
> In the past, I often used Perl's POD to write tutorials for some of my
> programs, and that always did a good job. But a while ago I discovered
> Markdown, and I found that even more convenient and intuitive. I thought, it
> would be very easy to use that as the format for literal programming in PHP:
> by a simple modification of the usual comment delimiters /* ... */ and // in
> PHP, these comments would become designated blocks for Markdown comments or
> delimiters for source code parts, that would appear in the documentation.
> The possibility these literal code blocks is an essential part of Donald
> Knuth's literal programming concept, and most standard documentation tools
> are not even capable of realizing that.
>
> In a first conversion step, these blocks would turn into Markdown, and in a
> second conversion step, the Markdown is converted to HTML.
>
>   phpToMarkdown
>  markdownToHtml
> PHP source code  --> Markdown
> --> HTML
>
>
> For the markdownToHtml function, I used Michel Fortin's PHP Markdown, so my
> actual converter is a pretty small script. I called it ElephantMark (see
> http://www-bucephalus-org.blogspot.com/2011/01/elephantmark.html) and the
> according script is its own documentation.
>
>
> This approach can be used for any mainstream programming language. My
> current favorite is Haskell, and I wrote a HaskellDown module, that does
> similar things for Haskell. The main converter is just a composition of two
> functions
>
> haskellToMarkdown
> markdownToHtml
> Haskell source code -> Markdown
> > HTML
>
>
> For the markdownToHtml part I used the very powerful Pandoc module, written
> by John MacFarlane.
> This week, I'll give a talk about it on a meeting of the Dutch Haskell User
> Group, and I intend to publish it, as soon as possible.
>
>
> During the preparations for the talk, I thought I should call the whole
> idea "CodeDown", including "Php(Code)Down" as the CodeDown for PHP,
> "PythonCodeDown" as the CodeDown for Python, etc. There could even be a
> general CodeDown tool, that does the conversion for all these particular
> languages alltogether.
>
>
>
> But before I put any more work into this project, I would like to find out,
> if there is really a general interest or support for this idea. Please,
> don't spare on your comments, answers or questions.
>
>
> Greetings, Thomas
> (bucephalus.org)
>
>
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CodeDown = Markdown as the universal language for program documentation

[bucephalus org]

Dear Markdown enthusiasts out there!


Sure, I don't need to tell you how great an versatile Markdown is for
writing standard documents.
I think, that it would make a really great universal standard as a
programming documentation language, too, and maybe "CodeDown" would be a
good title for this approach.


The idea started when I was trying to document some PHP scripts. I need to
use different programming languages for different purposes, but I am not a
full time programmer. The problem is, that for most of these languages, the
standard documentation tools are yet another language on their own, and I
already have difficulties remembering the idioms of the programming
languages. When I was working on the PHP scripts, I was looking for a
standard tool to write some docs, but I was overwhelmed by phpDocumentor.

In the past, I often used Perl's POD to write tutorials for some of my
programs, and that always did a good job. But a while ago I discovered
Markdown, and I found that even more convenient and intuitive. I thought, it
would be very easy to use that as the format for literal programming in PHP:
by a simple modification of the usual comment delimiters /* ... */ and // in
PHP, these comments would become designated blocks for Markdown comments or
delimiters for source code parts, that would appear in the documentation.
The possibility these literal code blocks is an essential part of Donald
Knuth's literal programming concept, and most standard documentation tools
are not even capable of realizing that.

In a first conversion step, these blocks would turn into Markdown, and in a
second conversion step, the Markdown is converted to HTML.

  phpToMarkdown
 markdownToHtml
PHP source code  --> Markdown
--> HTML


For the markdownToHtml function, I used Michel Fortin's PHP Markdown, so my
actual converter is a pretty small script. I called it ElephantMark (see
http://www-bucephalus-org.blogspot.com/2011/01/elephantmark.html) and the
according script is its own documentation.


This approach can be used for any mainstream programming language. My
current favorite is Haskell, and I wrote a HaskellDown module, that does
similar things for Haskell. The main converter is just a composition of two
functions

haskellToMarkdown
markdownToHtml
Haskell source code -> Markdown
> HTML


For the markdownToHtml part I used the very powerful Pandoc module, written
by John MacFarlane.
This week, I'll give a talk about it on a meeting of the Dutch Haskell User
Group, and I intend to publish it, as soon as possible.


During the preparations for the talk, I thought I should call the whole idea
"CodeDown", including "Php(Code)Down" as the CodeDown for PHP,
"PythonCodeDown" as the CodeDown for Python, etc. There could even be a
general CodeDown tool, that does the conversion for all these particular
languages alltogether.



But before I put any more work into this project, I would like to find out,
if there is really a general interest or support for this idea. Please,
don't spare on your comments, answers or questions.


Greetings, Thomas
(bucephalus.org)
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