Re: Good to have, not good to enforce Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct"
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > Errr, just to clarify that i think having a policy to quickly point to would > be a good thing. Setting-up enforcement and a formal part of the grievance > procedure to deal with it would be tooo heavy-handed and probably > counter-productive. > For the part of the marketing, there is little use for enforcement, as the offenders will be probably outside the LibreOffice project. In the specific case of the future LibreOffice forum, it would be an issue of the admins/coordinators to deal with. It would be up to them to figure out how a case should be resolved. I expect that in the extreme case of an unrepentant troll, the admins/coordinators would consider imposing a ban. Would that be 'enforcing the code of conduct'? I would say that taking an action such as banning an unrepentant troll is a decision of the coordinators on a case-by-case basis, and the decision is assisted because there was already in place this code of conduct. I've spent time as a coordinator in forums; if you do not deal with the antisocial behaviour, then the forum collapses. > > When i say i have a folder full, that has been built-up over 2 years on an > international list with people from all sorts of different backgrounds and > cultures. It's not nothing and just because certain people haven't noticed > it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It has been just about manageable over > the last couple of years but does keep on having to be dealt with in an > unsatisfactory way. Having a policy to draw to people's attention to would > probably solve it. > Up to now we (LibreOffice) did not have a proportionate online community. Compared to Linux distributions, LibreOffice is more widely used. If it is done right, the online communities will have millions of members. Simos > >> >> From: Tom Davies >>To: Leo Moons ; Simos Xenitellis >> >>Cc: marketing@global.libreoffice.org >>Sent: Saturday, 29 September 2012, 12:47 >>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct" >> >> >>Hi :) >>Also dealing with it off-list doesn't let other witnesses know that the >>behaviour may not have been acceptable unless and until the person being rude >>accepts, agrees and issues an apology to the list. >> >>Going off-list only usually works with someone that is normally polite and >>considerate but had a momentary aberration = perhaps a bad-hair-day, illness, >>stress or whatever. At worst the problem escalates and ends with one or >>other getting bullied or attacked. Finishing it quickly on-list means there >>are other people around to "keep it real" >> >>If people want examples of rude behaviour directed at people whose only crime >>was to be new to lists and new to OpenSource then i have a folder full i >>could pass on. >>Regards from >>Tom :) >> >> >>--- On Sat, 29/9/12, Simos Xenitellis wrote: >> >> >>>From: Simos Xenitellis >>>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct" >>>To: "Leo Moons" >>>Cc: marketing@global.libreoffice.org >>>Date: Saturday, 29 September, 2012, 12:29 >>> >>> >>>On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Leo Moons wrote: Hello, Op 25-09-12 11:01, Tom Davies schreef: > Hi :) > > I was wondering if we could set-up a "Code of Conduct" along the lines of > Ubuntu's? > > http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct > > While we like to believe that everyone on the lists and involved with > LO is "just like us" that means very different things for different > combinations of "us". The marketing list and documentation lists are very > polite and welcoming when someone new arrives and starts asking questions > but the Users List is often very rude and makes the new person feel very > unwelcome or even intimidated. Can we legislate against rudeness? Can we > even define it? Different people obviously have very different ideas > about > what is acceptable behaviour. > > Regards from > Tom :) If you see read rude comments on a list, go in discussion with the writer off-list and post a nice reply on-list. I am pretty sure this will help > more then a "Code of conduct" which is very difficult to enforce. >>> >>>The way I use the Code of Conduct is to refer people there when they >>>are rude or abusive. >>>They might just have a bad time or it might be a more general attitude. >>>If you were to take it off-list as standard practice, then it would >>>consume you in the long run. >>>It definetely does not scale, and *you* are very important to LibreOffice. >>> >>>Just like you might have people asking the same technical question on >>>LibreOffice for the n-th time, >>>and you simply refer them to a Wiki page, the Code of Conduct has the >>>purpose of such a Wiki page on bad attitudes. >>>The purpose is to show the bad attitudes are not acceptable and you >>>refuse to enter the messy s
Good to have, not good to enforce Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct"
Hi :) Errr, just to clarify that i think having a policy to quickly point to would be a good thing. Setting-up enforcement and a formal part of the grievance procedure to deal with it would be tooo heavy-handed and probably counter-productive. When i say i have a folder full, that has been built-up over 2 years on an international list with people from all sorts of different backgrounds and cultures. It's not nothing and just because certain people haven't noticed it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It has been just about manageable over the last couple of years but does keep on having to be dealt with in an unsatisfactory way. Having a policy to draw to people's attention to would probably solve it. Regards from Tom :) > > From: Tom Davies >To: Leo Moons ; Simos Xenitellis > >Cc: marketing@global.libreoffice.org >Sent: Saturday, 29 September 2012, 12:47 >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct" > > >Hi :) >Also dealing with it off-list doesn't let other witnesses know that the >behaviour may not have been acceptable unless and until the person being rude >accepts, agrees and issues an apology to the list. > >Going off-list only usually works with someone that is normally polite and >considerate but had a momentary aberration = perhaps a bad-hair-day, illness, >stress or whatever. At worst the problem escalates and ends with one or >other getting bullied or attacked. Finishing it quickly on-list means there >are other people around to "keep it real" > >If people want examples of rude behaviour directed at people whose only crime >was to be new to lists and new to OpenSource then i have a folder full i could >pass on. >Regards from >Tom :) > > >--- On Sat, 29/9/12, Simos Xenitellis wrote: > > >>From: Simos Xenitellis >>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] "Code of Conduct" >>To: "Leo Moons" >>Cc: marketing@global.libreoffice.org >>Date: Saturday, 29 September, 2012, 12:29 >> >> >>On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Leo Moons wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> >>> Op 25-09-12 11:01, Tom Davies schreef: >>> Hi :) I was wondering if we could set-up a "Code of Conduct" along the lines of Ubuntu's? http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct While we like to believe that everyone on the lists and involved with LO is "just like us" that means very different things for different combinations of "us". The marketing list and documentation lists are very polite and welcoming when someone new arrives and starts asking questions but the Users List is often very rude and makes the new person feel very unwelcome or even intimidated. Can we legislate against rudeness? Can we even define it? Different people obviously have very different ideas about what is acceptable behaviour. Regards from Tom :) >>> >>> If you see read rude comments on a list, go in discussion with the writer >>> off-list and post a nice reply on-list. I am pretty sure this will help more >>> then a "Code of conduct" which is very difficult to enforce. >>> >> >>The way I use the Code of Conduct is to refer people there when they >>are rude or abusive. >>They might just have a bad time or it might be a more general attitude. >>If you were to take it off-list as standard practice, then it would >>consume you in the long run. >>It definetely does not scale, and *you* are very important to LibreOffice. >> >>Just like you might have people asking the same technical question on >>LibreOffice for the n-th time, >>and you simply refer them to a Wiki page, the Code of Conduct has the >>purpose of such a Wiki page on bad attitudes. >>The purpose is to show the bad attitudes are not acceptable and you >>refuse to enter the messy situation. >> >>I haven't personally witnessed a case for "enforcing" the code of >>conduct and that is fine. >> >>Let's say that you witness an ad feminam attack >>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) which some consider >>acceptable even in the western societies. How would you deal with that >>off-list? >>Are ad feminam widespread? See https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ which >>discusses unacceptable behaviour at open-source conferences. >> >>Whether someone starts volunteering their time to LibreOffice or some >>other free software project is a sensitive process. In many cases >>(citation needed), their decision may be dictacted on whether they >>happen to encounter bad behaviour. >> >>At the moment, the LibreOffice online community is relatively small, >>and mainly English speaking. >>The more LibreOffice grows, the more diverse the user-group gets. Some >>things that are acceptable at one place might not be acceptable >>elsewhere. >>Other communities, like at ubuntuforums.org, have over 1.7 million >>subscribed members and they have a code of conduct to help >>coordinators and other volunteers. >> >>The Ubuntu community plans to update to Code of
