Re: www.gnome.org
On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 14:53 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Murray Cumming wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-10-26 at 18:07 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > [snip] > >> I have a > >> different approach to the solution: Lets install a readily available CMS, > >> like > >> Joomla, plug it into our existing LDAP account system, make it easy for > >> everyone with commit access to create a web password and edit. Then we can > >> mobilize the hundreds of our volunteers to keep the website up to date > >> instead > >> of looking for The One. > > > > That's as likely to make things worse as to make them better, and it's > > likely to lock us into something before we've thought properly about > > whether that's what we want. For instance, it would make it even more > > difficult to eventually have a website whose content can be translated > > as easily as our GNOME desktop application and documentation text. > > Do we absolutely need that feature? I'm very doubtful of people jumping at it > and actually translating more than, say, 5 pages. It was, I think, the most important feature that we considered when choosing a new www.gnome.org system. I think having 5 pages translated, and kept up to date, would be wonderful. However, I think the entire site would be translated in many languages if we made it possible. The GNOME translation team are amazing. They seem to love translating applications, release notes, documentation, anything that we even vaguely make available for translation. > > I'd be particularly worried about using any CMS that didn't let us see the > > changes that all these hundreds of people made day to day. > > Details? Isn't Plone development open? I mean, if someone changed some text on a web page, I want to see that change, just like we do now in svn or the wiki. That's also necessary to keep translations up-to-date. > What has frightened me about the Plone plan is that when I read messages about > it, it's always about coding and making changes in Plone itself, while I had > expected it to be customization and configuration for GNOME's use. What's so > different about GNOME's requirements needing so much changes in an > off-the-shelf CMS? Yes, this worries me too. But if it lives then let's review it then. Note that the translation feature is new (and not finished, I believe). However, this is fairly understandable because no open-source CMS in the world seems to offer this feature, certainly not via .po files. But that's not what's causing difficulties now. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 21:54 +0100, Carsten Senger wrote: > Murray Cumming schrieb: > > On Sun, 2008-10-26 at 18:07 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > [...] > > > 3. Trying to get the structure and content out of the Plone system so I can > > archive it, > > and then just reorganize the existing gnomweb-wml stuff to match it. > > I have extracted the content from the Data.fs you provided and attached > it. Everything that could be of interest is in structure/en. The > contentobjects are saved in the rfc-822-format. > > If you have other information in a Data.fs you want to get out I can do > that even if we fail. Thank you. That's a huge help to me. > On live.gnome.org are some pages about the overall structure and some > subsections. I can't see if they are up to date. If they aren't I mark > them as outdated. They are probably not. When implementing those ideas in the Plone system, we found that we must revise and simplify it, meaning that the Plone system is the agreed structure. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Murray Cumming schrieb: > I think having 5 pages translated, and kept up to date, would be wonderful. > However, I think the entire site would be translated in many languages if > we made it possible. The GNOME translation team are amazing. They seem to > love translating applications, release notes, documentation, anything that > we even vaguely make available for translation. > Although the quality is not very high - and sometimes I think its better to have good content in its original language than a bad or outdated translation. What I try to say is that its not always good to translate. I was very disappointed of the german translation of the 2.24 release notes for example. I think its important to translate some basic pages currently the only page describing GNOME is http://www.gnome.org/about/ - and there I rather think more work should go into the original page(s). One needs to explain what GNOME is - give more screenshots and recorded sessions - so people can see how GNOME works and looks. And then out of the GNOME intro there should be links to pages about some projects like Epiphany, Gnumeric, Abiword - one should also talk about working with OO.org or Firefox on GNOME. I think the real task is to develop content that makes sense and is appealing. Surrounded by a nice design and a good technical platform. > > Note that the translation feature is new (and not finished, I believe). > However, this is fairly understandable because no open-source CMS in the > world seems to offer this feature, certainly not via .po files. But > that's not what's causing difficulties now. > Sure, Drupal uses .po files for translations since ages. That was one of the reasons for selecting Drupal on my own websites. You can import and export po files - so somebody can work on his own Drupal, translate stuff and then export. I never understood why people thought Drupal was bad in i18n stuff. Unless I still do not get the point. See also http://drupal.org/contribute/translations , http://drupal.org/node/275705 Please tell me its not that nobody looked at the actual Drupal core features before dismissing it for not providing translation possibilities? Regards, Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Hi, On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Thilo Pfennig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > Please tell me its not that nobody looked at the actual Drupal core > features before dismissing it for not providing translation possibilities? > > Here's the rejection of Drupal: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2006-October/msg00116.html And here's the decision for Plone: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2006-October/msg00138.html Back then, Drupal wasn't ready, it seems. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Murray Cumming wrote: > > I mean, if someone changed some text on a web page, I want to see that > change, just like we do now in svn or the wiki. That's also necessary to > keep translations up-to-date. Oh, I see. Yes, being able to monitor all changes is pretty important. behdad -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Need GNOME open source success stories
I'd like to have a couple of success stories that helps explain why it's so important that GNOME is free and open source software. I'm not looking for all the reasons it should be open, but rather a few stories that really make a point. Does anybody have an example of an application that was able to do something really cool on Linux/GNOME that would not have been possible on Windows? Preferably an application that does something most people would recognize, i.e. a music player instead of a task scheduler. Or any other types of stories? I'm thinking these would be really useful to get non-developer people understanding the value of GNOME and of free and open source software. Thanks, Stormy P.S. I read this last night which gave me the idea, http://sashadichter.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/manifesto-in-defense-of-raising-money_sasha1.pdf . -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Need GNOME open source success stories
Hi Stormy, This story is a pretty amazing one, I think: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2008-October/msg00132.html What free software enables is customisation and differentiation that just is not possible with proprietary software. On vertical applications like that breast cancer scanner, or the Vernier LabQuest, free software gives hardware manufacturers a foot up, providing them with a full functional stack from OS up to graphical interface, which allows them to focus on what makes the difference for them and their users, the applications that differentiate them from their competitors. I don't know that there are a *lot* of things that we could do - it's possible to hack up windows to launch vertical applications at launch, of course, in fact most apps like that are running on Windows (think about those blue screens in airport terminals). But giving a hardware manufacturer control over the whole stack, including the toolkit & the kernel, is what's different about the free software stack. A nicer example, if we could get them to talk about it, might be the Garmin Nüvis which are based on the GNOME stack, but with a very targeted vertical application. These are still a little prosaic for responding to your manifesto - so let me reframe the discussion. The most powerful statement about the priorities of the GNOME project that I have seen is what Jeff calls Universal Access. I have elaborated it this way: The goal of the GNOME Foundation is to provide complete access to information technology to people, regardless of their financial means, culture, technical skills, or physical ability. We work to achieve this goal by concentrating on core values: free software, internationalisation and localisation, usability, and accessibility. So if that's our starting point - Universal Access as our goal - then stories which support that goal stem from that. For example, the GNOME based Dzongkha Linux: http://dzongkha.sourceforge.net/ - in 2005 (if I recall correctly) Dzongkha went from 0% to 100% translated in under 2 weeks! Having a government funded, 100% localised software distribution for Bhutan would be impossible if they did not have that fully functional, fully internationalised stack ready to be translated. http://www.kuenselonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9002 Or, related to accessibility - perhaps Willie Walker, Aaron Leventhal, Janina Sajka or David Bolter might have some real life examples of people whose lives are demonstrably better because they have access to IT through GNOME and the GNOME a11y work? It's a little trickier to come up with those kinds of stories when concentrating *just* on the Free Software angle, or on usability work, but I think that seeing those vertical apps being enabled by the full stack being free software is pretty compelling, if framed in the right way (say: interviews with kids using the LabQuest?). You also have a collection of GNOME stories (although not dressed up nicely right now) in the wiki: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/GnomeDeployments Specifically, there are some testimonials here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/GnomeTestimonials Anyway - braindump more than anything else. I hope this is useful. Cheers, Dave. Stormy Peters wrote: > I'd like to have a couple of success stories that helps explain why it's > so important that GNOME is free and open source software. I'm not > looking for all the reasons it should be open, but rather a few stories > that really make a point. > > Does anybody have an example of an application that was able to do > something really cool on Linux/GNOME that would not have been possible > on Windows? Preferably an application that does something most people > would recognize, i.e. a music player instead of a task scheduler. > > Or any other types of stories? > > I'm thinking these would be really useful to get non-developer people > understanding the value of GNOME and of free and open source software. > > Thanks, > > Stormy > > P.S. I read this last night which gave me the idea, > http://sashadichter.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/manifesto-in-defense-of-raising-money_sasha1.pdf. > > > > > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
call me for the meeting?
I had the meeting down for 2:00 in my calendar - hopefully that's right. Do you guys want to call me at 970-481-2076? Thanks, Stormy -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Please ignore! (WAS Re: call me for the meeting?)
Please ignore - wrong address popped up and I was in a hurry! On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Stormy Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I had the meeting down for 2:00 in my calendar - hopefully that's right. > > Do you guys want to call me at 970-481-2076? > > Thanks, > > Stormy > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Need GNOME open source success stories
Hi Dave, Those first two examples, the scanner and the GPS, are perfect. I think our message of universal access is very good and strong and we have lots of stories to support it. However, I was looking for the what's in it for me, why is open source good for me, where "me" is the average person at a conference, reading my blog or stumbling across our web page. I think we need to continue the how GNOME is good for the world message and add a few "everyday" stories of why it's good for "me" and why it's important it's open source. I think combining the breast cancer scanner story with the Dzongkha Linux story would be a really strong combo. It's important for my aunt/mom/sister and for people around the world. Stormy On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Dave Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Stormy, > > This story is a pretty amazing one, I think: > > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2008-October/msg00132.html > > What free software enables is customisation and differentiation that > just is not possible with proprietary software. On vertical applications > like that breast cancer scanner, or the Vernier LabQuest, free software > gives hardware manufacturers a foot up, providing them with a full > functional stack from OS up to graphical interface, which allows them to > focus on what makes the difference for them and their users, the > applications that differentiate them from their competitors. > > I don't know that there are a *lot* of things that we could do - it's > possible to hack up windows to launch vertical applications at launch, > of course, in fact most apps like that are running on Windows (think > about those blue screens in airport terminals). But giving a hardware > manufacturer control over the whole stack, including the toolkit & the > kernel, is what's different about the free software stack. > > A nicer example, if we could get them to talk about it, might be the > Garmin Nüvis which are based on the GNOME stack, but with a very > targeted vertical application. > > These are still a little prosaic for responding to your manifesto - so > let me reframe the discussion. > > The most powerful statement about the priorities of the GNOME project > that I have seen is what Jeff calls Universal Access. > > I have elaborated it this way: > > The goal of the GNOME Foundation is to provide complete access to > information technology to people, regardless of their financial means, > culture, technical skills, or physical ability. > > We work to achieve this goal by concentrating on core values: free > software, internationalisation and localisation, usability, and > accessibility. > > So if that's our starting point - Universal Access as our goal - then > stories which support that goal stem from that. > > For example, the GNOME based Dzongkha Linux: > http://dzongkha.sourceforge.net/ - in 2005 (if I recall correctly) > Dzongkha went from 0% to 100% translated in under 2 weeks! Having a > government funded, 100% localised software distribution for Bhutan would > be impossible if they did not have that fully functional, fully > internationalised stack ready to be translated. > http://www.kuenselonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9002 > > > Or, related to accessibility - perhaps Willie Walker, Aaron Leventhal, > Janina Sajka or David Bolter might have some real life examples of > people whose lives are demonstrably better because they have access to > IT through GNOME and the GNOME a11y work? > > It's a little trickier to come up with those kinds of stories when > concentrating *just* on the Free Software angle, or on usability work, > but I think that seeing those vertical apps being enabled by the full > stack being free software is pretty compelling, if framed in the right > way (say: interviews with kids using the LabQuest?). > > You also have a collection of GNOME stories (although not dressed up > nicely right now) in the wiki: > http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/GnomeDeployments > > Specifically, there are some testimonials here: > http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/GnomeTestimonials > > Anyway - braindump more than anything else. I hope this is useful. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > Stormy Peters wrote: > > I'd like to have a couple of success stories that helps explain why it's > > so important that GNOME is free and open source software. I'm not > > looking for all the reasons it should be open, but rather a few stories > > that really make a point. > > > > Does anybody have an example of an application that was able to do > > something really cool on Linux/GNOME that would not have been possible > > on Windows? Preferably an application that does something most people > > would recognize, i.e. a music player instead of a task scheduler. > > > > Or any other types of stories? > > > > I'm thinking these would be really useful to get non-developer people > > understanding the value of GNOME and of free and open source software. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Stor
Re: www.gnome.org
Hi! Thilo Pfennig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:52:20 +0100: > Murray Cumming schrieb: > > I think having 5 pages translated, and kept up to date, would be > > wonderful. However, I think the entire site would be translated in many > > languages if we made it possible. The GNOME translation team are > > amazing. They seem to love translating applications, release notes, > > documentation, anything that we even vaguely make available for > > translation. > > Although the quality is not very high - and sometimes I think its better > to have good content in its original language than a bad or outdated > translation. What I try to say is that its not always good to translate. > I was very disappointed of the german translation of the 2.24 release > notes for example. Your statement regarding the translation quality is quite strong considering it's a pure generalization and nothing more. I wonder whether you base the quality-of-GNOME-translations argument on one of the German translation outputs (the only one you provided, and that you consider to be of substantial significance in relation to other translation [teams'] work), or whether you really have any other arguments to set forth, and thus prove your position. Otherwise, it seems to be quite controversial and, may I say, disrespectful towards translators, whose work, in my humble translator's opinion, is as good and as bad as any other contributions. That being said, and as far as I know, one aim of GNOME is to provide experience of a fully localized environment. And the main GNOME website should be part of it. Regards, Petr Kovar -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Petr Kovar schrieb: > Otherwise, it seems to be quite controversial and, may I say, disrespectful > towards translators, whose work, in my humble translator's opinion, is as > good and as bad as any other contributions. > Its obvious. Professional translation is a very complex task. You can not expect a high quality from volunteers who often do not have any training and are often developers who also do translations. In relation to code I guess its often the case that programers aho work on GNOME are professional programmers - not all - but many. The argument that I made was made in a specific context - that it would be desirable to have the whole site translated. The question I rose was in fact if it is better to have a good original english page or rather a not so good translation. So I did not start a thread to disrespect translators. In Moin wiki not all help pages are translated because the translations often do not take up the changes fast enough. So generally there is a translation - but the goal is rather to have a good documentation as one that is outdated, wrong and often of lower quality. How can you say the quality is high? I guess you cant prove the opposit either. So better what makes you think the quality can be high? I am sure people who translate are motivated and do their best - and it often helps greatly, especially on user interfaces and documentation. I did this myself for the german epiphany manual. But I know my shortcomings as well as I see those of other german translators. It does not matter if I say it or if I do not. Everybody can see it. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Claus Schwarm schrieb: > > Here's the rejection of Drupal: > > Thanks Claus, I had looked at them some days ago as this threads started. > > Back then, Drupal wasn't ready, it seems. > Actually I think that it was rather not evaluated correctly. Anyway. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
