Hey,
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Dave Neary wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> On 11/15/2012 09:12 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Dave Neary wrote:
>>
>> I think that as a project, we have had trouble communicating our
>> vision, because as a project we are not sure what it is.
>>
>
> I think this is the main thing I wanted to say. I have been involved in
> the GNOME project, albeit not as a core developer or module maintainer,
> since 2004. And I do not understand our vision. What is the dream that
> we're selling, and why should I be excited about it?
>
I was attracted to the GNOME project because of the vision and because I
was excited by it. I became a core developer, maintainer, and designer. I
understand the vision and I share it. I continue to be inspired by it -
going on 10 years now. Inspired enough to put up with a lot of negativity.
Despite how some would portray it, this vision is shared by the current
core contributors.
You'll find evidence of this everywhere, if you look. That said, we should
do more to make it explicit. Make it clear. Not because of threads like
this but because we are proud of it. Because we want to shout it and we
know people will respond.
> For instance, the insistence that
>> theming will damage our brand, or that Cinnamon is not GNOME 3, has
>> led to missed opportunities for the GNOME project, and has not got
>> grass roots support among the GNOME community (and I'm not talking
>> about users here, I'm talking about contributors - developers,
>> translators, user group co-ordinators, and marketers).
>>
>> Let's be clear then. Cinnamon is not GNOME 3.
>>
>
> I understand that is your position. And I understand that as the
> maintainer and primary designer of GNOME Shell, you have a lot of weight in
> holding that position.
>
This is not just my position and again trying to characterize this as an
opinion is just silly. I suppose I should refer to you as "Jon" from now
on? Surely the idea that Dave is Jon is absurd. We can be different, have
different ideas, have different goals, and still be friends. Sharing where
it is mutually beneficial but still appearing separate and distinct.
Standing on our own, proudly. With individual rights and responsibilities.
I have absolutely no problem with Cinnamon. I think I give them more credit
than you do. They took a name, on purpose. To differentiate themselves - to
allow people the freedom to choose a different user experience. They have
different goals. A different appearance. Different behaviors. A different
future. And that is fine.
I think it's a shame that Cinnamon users don't realise, for the most part,
> that they are using GNOME Shell, and the rest of the GNOME 3 stack
It is not a shame that users aren't concerned with or interested in
implementation details. That is as it should be. We welcome it.
. I think that it's a shame that we have apparently gone out of our way to
> put a barrier between ourselves and the Cinnamon/Mint guys by saying
> "you're not GNOME 3". The message we're sending is, "your help is not
> wanted, we don't like what you're doing".
>
This is complete nonsense. Why does a fork happen? I don't know why these
particular developers decided to split, but for forks in general I'd guess
it is something like: "we don't like what you're doing." Well not entirely.
There is one more part of the equation to determine if the dissatisfaction
is great enough and the goals are divergent enough to make such a split
worthwhile: "can I do it alone?"
If you can't do it alone then you shouldn't fork. That is the economic
pressure that keeps us all working together towards shared goals.
If you do fork, you can't go complaining about how hard it is. And it is
completely offensive to blame the original project for not wanting to share.
So, again, your characterization of this issue is completely wrong. We are
not sending any message other than:
"We are deeply sorry that we could not agree on goals. We are always
willing to have a conversation about how we may find common ground. We
respect your difference of opinion and your right to identify and
differentiate yourself. We would still like to collaborate on
implementation details and shared technology. Perhaps we can agree on
commonality in the application development experience, and application
delivery and installation."
Suggesting otherwise isn't helping anyone.
Personally, I think that it'd be cool to have our community be the
> community of people who can go wild on the platform - "let a thousand
> flowers bloom". That the core GNOME project is solid and useful, but
