Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:11 AM, Dave Neary wrote: > > For info, SugarCRM offered us complimentary licences for a hosted > sugarcrm account, but for a reason I don't know, that never got used. > These companies are in general willing to provide a hosted solution for > free to community projects. > > They sent us a legal agreement that had a lot of extra stuff in it. We edited it. We were discussing it (slowly) when we decided to install CiviCRM. Stormy -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi, Olav Vitters wrote: >> Our currently available solutions are: >> * Share office documents as wiki attachments >> * Use wiki pages to collaborate on text > > What is the problem with above? Meaning: has it been tried and proved to > be ineffective? I know what has been said, but what is done now, is > there a concrete problem? E.g. with requesting version control, usually > revisioning is already part of the word processor. 1. The wiki is not good for graphical documents (marketing pamphlets, presentations, annual report layout, etc) 2. Revision control in the word processor is OK if editing is sequential (only one person at a time editing a document). Things like conflict management when 2 people want to upload a new revision of a document isn't handled by the wiki or the word processor/presentation program. 3. Wiki attachments sucks as a general "dropbox" type "share spreadsheets, presentations and documents" solution. If you don't see why, then I suspect you haven't tried to use the wiki for this. >> git accounts are given after proven contribution, as you say. Not >> necessarily technical contribution. Our main need is to have a place > > We don't have it written down, but no, that is not a correct > interpretation. We e.g. do not give every translator an account. It > really is focussed on modules. Of course, if you're well known it will > be easier, but please don't try and nit pick (sorry, don't know a better > way to state that atm) when I say 'proven contribution'. Well, it is an ongoing problem for free software projects how you build a trust network around non-technical roles. Hackers show their code, translators show their strings. What do marketing people have to show to get access to revision control? It's an interesting general issue - and perhaps, as you say, focussing on revision control is focussing on the wrong thing. But even websites are in git, and those are typically the realm of designers & marketers, so the need is there to answer the question at some stage. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Note: I didn't want to get into this topic. Should've not included more. On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:15:43PM +0100, Dave Neary wrote: > Olav Vitters wrote: > > IMO: Discussion seems a bit too technically orientated. Think if there > > is a need everything will work out. > > > The need is well defined: "share and collaborate on marketing material". I meant the focus on the technical bit, not what is asked. > Our currently available solutions are: > * Share office documents as wiki attachments > * Use wiki pages to collaborate on text What is the problem with above? Meaning: has it been tried and proved to be ineffective? I know what has been said, but what is done now, is there a concrete problem? E.g. with requesting version control, usually revisioning is already part of the word processor. > git accounts are given after proven contribution, as you say. Not > necessarily technical contribution. Our main need is to have a place We don't have it written down, but no, that is not a correct interpretation. We e.g. do not give every translator an account. It really is focussed on modules. Of course, if you're well known it will be easier, but please don't try and nit pick (sorry, don't know a better way to state that atm) when I say 'proven contribution'. > where people can get office documents to their hard drive, edit them, > and propose updates. Wiki fulfils this. I know ECM is probably technically a better solution. > Certainly an ECM seems best adapted, but we don't have one, and everyone > is now afraid to ask for any infrastructure to be made available on > gnome.org due to the proven long wait times for anything involving > installation of new services. Totally true about waiting a long time. But again, seems focussed on technical bit. But, I am on marketing-list as a lurker, didn't intend on discussing marketing related issues. -- Regards, Olav -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi Olav, Olav Vitters wrote: > IMO: Discussion seems a bit too technically orientated. Think if there > is a need everything will work out. The need is well defined: "share and collaborate on marketing material". Our currently available solutions are: * Share office documents as wiki attachments * Use wiki pages to collaborate on text git accounts are given after proven contribution, as you say. Not necessarily technical contribution. Our main need is to have a place where people can get office documents to their hard drive, edit them, and propose updates. Certainly an ECM seems best adapted, but we don't have one, and everyone is now afraid to ask for any infrastructure to be made available on gnome.org due to the proven long wait times for anything involving installation of new services. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi, Michael Hasselmann wrote: > For both products there seem to be "SaaS" (Software-as-a-Service aka > hosted solutions) offers: > > http://www.alfresco.com/partners/hosting/ > http://knowledgetree.com/products/saas (called KnowledgeTreeLive) In my experience, there is little or no support for Linux desktop users wishing to use Alfresco as SaaS. For example, I could not get access to an Alfresco directory over either webdav or CIFS with Nautilus, and there was no information on doing so in the knowledge base for the hosted solution. There *is* information for doing it self-hosted, though. For info, SugarCRM offered us complimentary licences for a hosted sugarcrm account, but for a reason I don't know, that never got used. These companies are in general willing to provide a hosted solution for free to community projects. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Mon, Feb 08, 2010 at 06:26:46PM -0600, Paul Cutler wrote: > Do we want to use GNOME's git repository for marketing materials? Don't forget that Git accounts are given after proven contributions. IMO: Discussion seems a bit too technically orientated. Think if there is a need everything will work out. -- Regards, Olav -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi, Am Dienstag, den 09.02.2010, 14:15 -0500 schrieb Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier: > Does Alfresco provide a hosted solution? Maybe one of the free > software CMS/ECM providers would want to support the project by giving > us a turnkey hosted solution? Seeing as we wouldn't be hammering the > hell out of the servers, it would probably give them more exposure > than it would cost in resources. For both products there seem to be "SaaS" (Software-as-a-Service aka hosted solutions) offers: http://www.alfresco.com/partners/hosting/ http://knowledgetree.com/products/saas (called KnowledgeTreeLive) regards, Michael -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Michael Hasselmann wrote: > Technically, Alfresco is likely to scale better (KT is implemented in > PHP IIRC). But I found KT to be more newcomer-friendly. Both are OK to > set up, though it might take a while if you have no Tomcat server > already. Does Alfresco provide a hosted solution? Maybe one of the free software CMS/ECM providers would want to support the project by giving us a turnkey hosted solution? Seeing as we wouldn't be hammering the hell out of the servers, it would probably give them more exposure than it would cost in resources. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier About: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/about/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi! Am Dienstag, den 09.02.2010, 14:37 +0100 schrieb Dave Neary: > Alfresco/Jahia/Nuxeo/KnowledgeTree, maybe? I can recommend both Alfresco and KT, whereas Nuxeo also seemed OK when I last checked it (been a while). The thing is, git is not really a document management solution. Alfresco and KT offer powerful full-text indexing for each word document/PDF you upload (using heuristics to find *meaningful* keywords). Alfresco allows fine-grained ACLs, too whereas KT allows easy customisation because of its widgets-on-a-dashboard approach (layouting can all be done with a website so one could easily create dossiers from existing documents). Technically, Alfresco is likely to scale better (KT is implemented in PHP IIRC). But I found KT to be more newcomer-friendly. Both are OK to set up, though it might take a while if you have no Tomcat server already. regards, Michael -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Tue, 2010-02-09 at 16:27 +0100, Dave Neary wrote: > Hi, > > Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > > More pain on our side, less pain on the side of the contributors who > > aren't developer tool friendly. > > Yes and no... one more account to create, or moderation request to wait > for - one more bottleneck to get through before you're productive. For > reference, see how long it has taken some of the members of the > marketing team to go from volunteering to help maintain the web pages to > actually getting access to the resources (in one case, there's still a > request in a queue somewhere awaiting an SSH key). > > > You outlined 6 steps that a new > > contributor would go through in order to participate. > > Well, really the 6 steps contains 2 really important ones - getting git > & getting the marketing resources. As I said, it's a cheat sheet - the > other commands you only need from time to time, and the git problem is > memorising everything. Those using a POSIX compliant system like Linux or *BSD would probably manage to run a local depot and a simple crontab script to update it every X minutes if needed. Eventually there are also GNOME/GTK clients for git which would cut much of the command line pressure for some people. And eventually, we could make a proposal of a GNOME project to the developers list to create a more robust GUI git client, which would not only serve us, but the entire community and we could integrate it easily with GNOME and make a part of it. I would recon that most people see Marketing as a sales force, which is actually not correct. Marketing goes far beyond that idea. When people are sick, they go to the doctors. When an organization is sick, they turn to Marketing, which is actually a set of tools and processes that allow you diagnose and treat the "illness". Just as a curiosity, how would GNOME developers see a Marketing Developing Plan for a new application? Would they be cool enough to follow a roadmap and a script or would just they see it as an attack of the bureaucrats ? Nelson > > > Some may be that > > motivated, others are likely to quietly decide that another project > > might be better suited to their free time. > > So be it. > > As I say > here:http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/04/08/copyright-assignment-and-other-barriers-to-entry/ > > some barriers to entry are desirable. Others aren't. > > In general, I would say that for any task where the commandline isn't > otherwise necessary, avoid the command line. So a natural graphic way to > get git and download & update files from git is probably useful, but > there's no inherent reason why we'd need Alfresco. > > We could also use the Ubuntu One cloud, or DropBox... obviously, I > prefer we don't, because they're proprietary software, but at least > there the "hard to use" argument is less evident. > > > Not disagreeing that wiki attachments are sub-optimal, but I'm not > > sure git is any better for sharing something like an OpenOffice.org > > document. > > Sharing a document is probably best done as a wiki page, or in Google > Docs or Zoho. Sharing the actual .odt doesn't make any sense to me, any > more than it made sense to me back in the day, when project specs were > sent as .doc attachments by email. > > If documents need regular revision, then you need something which allows > collaborative editing & has version control. A wiki, a BaseCamp > writeboard, or Google Docs (or an equivalent), or (if it ever gets > released) the rumored web-hosted OOo would all fit the bill. > > Cheers, > Dave. > > -- > Dave Neary > GNOME Foundation member > dne...@gnome.org > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Mon, 2010-02-08 at 18:26 -0600, Paul Cutler wrote: > Hi Marketing Team! > > One of the topics I'd like to discuss in Saturday's team meeting is: > > Do we want to use GNOME's git repository for marketing materials? I would assume that having a repository for marketing materials is a great achievement by itself. This is a great step to improve communication and productivity. About git itself, it's a powerful tool, maybe too powerful for some of us. It's easy to use, allows us to make a normal repository locally and eventually for those who would like to use graphical tools, there are available for GNOME. Eventually those who use Linux can setup a couple of easy crontab scripts to run at one's flavour and keep the local repository mirror updated. For me, it's a sane choice, though I would recon that maybe for most people it's way too powerful. Someone mentioned google docs. That's a neat tool and it's quite good aswell, though I would be considering Google's privacy policy which isn't exactly better than Microsoft or other "evil" companies. As a user I would probably consider this the most important points: 1. Easy of access 2. Indexing 3. Version control, which can be actually easier to control is there is a maintainer for each. This would be easily achieved if the submitter maintained their own docs (even if we use a note to keep track of version). About formats, I would acknowledge that most people will be using OpenOffice and other open software, so it really should be easy. Any option you guys decide is good for me. I do have internet availability 24 hours per day, so I really don't care which system we use. Someone spoke in another email about access and stuff. This is not something that is marketing related, but OpenLDAP can actually provide a good platform to maintain lots of different systems/platforms/appliances for authentication, and it's quite stable and trustable, allows replication and easy to install/manage. -- my 2 cents Nelson. > > What made me think of it is I was working on the FAQ for volunteers > hosting a GNOME booth[1] that we started at the hackfest last Nov. It > looks pretty enough in the wiki, but it's really not ready for someone > to just print and go with. > > There are a number of advantages and dis-advantages to using git that I > can think of off the top of my head: > > Pro's: > > * Easier to keep marketing materials up to date (multiple editors, > revision control) > * Can have multiple copies (OpenOffice.org, PDF, etc) > * Better formatting than the wiki > * Personal opinion: easier than managing on the wiki / live.gnome.org > (we have attachments in a few different places) > > > Cons: > > * Might need to learn git (though we can document how to do a git clone > on the wiki) > * Storing all marketing materials in one git repo could be a large > download the first time as the user would get all materials, not just > one > * Volunteer would need to have git installed > > Thoughts? I don't know if we need an answer right away, or if we'll > have a quorum in the meeting Saturday, but I'd be curious to hear what > people think. > > Paul > > [1] http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/ConferenceMaterial/BoothFAQ > > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > More pain on our side, less pain on the side of the contributors who > aren't developer tool friendly. Yes and no... one more account to create, or moderation request to wait for - one more bottleneck to get through before you're productive. For reference, see how long it has taken some of the members of the marketing team to go from volunteering to help maintain the web pages to actually getting access to the resources (in one case, there's still a request in a queue somewhere awaiting an SSH key). > You outlined 6 steps that a new > contributor would go through in order to participate. Well, really the 6 steps contains 2 really important ones - getting git & getting the marketing resources. As I said, it's a cheat sheet - the other commands you only need from time to time, and the git problem is memorising everything. > Some may be that > motivated, others are likely to quietly decide that another project > might be better suited to their free time. So be it. As I say here:http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/04/08/copyright-assignment-and-other-barriers-to-entry/ some barriers to entry are desirable. Others aren't. In general, I would say that for any task where the commandline isn't otherwise necessary, avoid the command line. So a natural graphic way to get git and download & update files from git is probably useful, but there's no inherent reason why we'd need Alfresco. We could also use the Ubuntu One cloud, or DropBox... obviously, I prefer we don't, because they're proprietary software, but at least there the "hard to use" argument is less evident. > Not disagreeing that wiki attachments are sub-optimal, but I'm not > sure git is any better for sharing something like an OpenOffice.org > document. Sharing a document is probably best done as a wiki page, or in Google Docs or Zoho. Sharing the actual .odt doesn't make any sense to me, any more than it made sense to me back in the day, when project specs were sent as .doc attachments by email. If documents need regular revision, then you need something which allows collaborative editing & has version control. A wiki, a BaseCamp writeboard, or Google Docs (or an equivalent), or (if it ever gets released) the rumored web-hosted OOo would all fit the bill. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Tue, 2010-02-09 at 08:44 -0500, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Dave Neary wrote: > > Alfresco/Jahia/Nuxeo/KnowledgeTree, maybe? But adding more > > infrastructure seems like a pain. In any case, wiki attachments sucks > > for collaboratively working on anything, esp. documents. > > More pain on our side, less pain on the side of the contributors who > aren't developer tool friendly. You outlined 6 steps that a new > contributor would go through in order to participate. Some may be that > motivated, others are likely to quietly decide that another project > might be better suited to their free time. > > Not disagreeing that wiki attachments are sub-optimal, but I'm not > sure git is any better for sharing something like an OpenOffice.org > document. Surely they wouldn't need git just to download the materials. Can't we just have links in the wiki to download over the web from cgit? -- Shaun McCance http://syllogist.net/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
I agree with Zonker. Everybody I've tried to talk into joining the marketing list would have been discouraged or intimidated by the git process. Stormy On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 6:44 AM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Dave Neary wrote: > > Alfresco/Jahia/Nuxeo/KnowledgeTree, maybe? But adding more > > infrastructure seems like a pain. In any case, wiki attachments sucks > > for collaboratively working on anything, esp. documents. > > More pain on our side, less pain on the side of the contributors who > aren't developer tool friendly. You outlined 6 steps that a new > contributor would go through in order to participate. Some may be that > motivated, others are likely to quietly decide that another project > might be better suited to their free time. > > Not disagreeing that wiki attachments are sub-optimal, but I'm not > sure git is any better for sharing something like an OpenOffice.org > document. > > Best, > > Zonker > -- > Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier > About: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/about/ > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Dave Neary wrote: > Alfresco/Jahia/Nuxeo/KnowledgeTree, maybe? But adding more > infrastructure seems like a pain. In any case, wiki attachments sucks > for collaboratively working on anything, esp. documents. More pain on our side, less pain on the side of the contributors who aren't developer tool friendly. You outlined 6 steps that a new contributor would go through in order to participate. Some may be that motivated, others are likely to quietly decide that another project might be better suited to their free time. Not disagreeing that wiki attachments are sub-optimal, but I'm not sure git is any better for sharing something like an OpenOffice.org document. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier About: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/about/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
Hi, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > I'm not sure i"ll be able to make the meeting Saturday, but I do want > to chime in on this. Having some form of central repository and/or > some kind of revision control is a great idea. But I think git is just > a wee bit too developer focused to be comfortable for a lot of people > we might hope to attract to the marketing team. I'm sure some folks on > this list have strong tech skills and strong marketing skills, but > that's not the norm. All RCSes are developer focused. What you need for GIT is the same thing we needed for svn and cvs - a cheat sheet for people who don't want to do anything other than centralised version control: 0. To install Git on your system, run: (Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse & Fedora instructions/package names included: 1. To get a copy of GNOME marketing materials in a local directory called gnome-marketing, run the following command: 2. To update your local copy to see the latest changes, run this command: 3. To commit changes to a file in the directory that you have edited, run the following command: 4. To add/delete a file from version control, use this command: 5. To see the changes people have made in the past, run: 6. To browse the source code online, go to: 7. For a GUI git client, try: > What can we use that would be better suited for a non-technical > audience that might meet the same goals? Alfresco/Jahia/Nuxeo/KnowledgeTree, maybe? But adding more infrastructure seems like a pain. In any case, wiki attachments sucks for collaboratively working on anything, esp. documents. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Marketing Materials in git
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Paul Cutler wrote: > Thoughts? I don't know if we need an answer right away, or if we'll > have a quorum in the meeting Saturday, but I'd be curious to hear what > people think. I'm not sure i"ll be able to make the meeting Saturday, but I do want to chime in on this. Having some form of central repository and/or some kind of revision control is a great idea. But I think git is just a wee bit too developer focused to be comfortable for a lot of people we might hope to attract to the marketing team. I'm sure some folks on this list have strong tech skills and strong marketing skills, but that's not the norm. What can we use that would be better suited for a non-technical audience that might meet the same goals? It's tempting to say to newcomers, "these are the tools everybody else in the project uses, so here you go" but I think that's the wrong approach to expand our reach. We need tools that are a bit less scary for people who don't usually work with command line tools and so on. Maybe we should be looking at Alfresco or some other CMS/ECM? Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier About: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/about/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Marketing Materials in git
Hi Marketing Team! One of the topics I'd like to discuss in Saturday's team meeting is: Do we want to use GNOME's git repository for marketing materials? What made me think of it is I was working on the FAQ for volunteers hosting a GNOME booth[1] that we started at the hackfest last Nov. It looks pretty enough in the wiki, but it's really not ready for someone to just print and go with. There are a number of advantages and dis-advantages to using git that I can think of off the top of my head: Pro's: * Easier to keep marketing materials up to date (multiple editors, revision control) * Can have multiple copies (OpenOffice.org, PDF, etc) * Better formatting than the wiki * Personal opinion: easier than managing on the wiki / live.gnome.org (we have attachments in a few different places) Cons: * Might need to learn git (though we can document how to do a git clone on the wiki) * Storing all marketing materials in one git repo could be a large download the first time as the user would get all materials, not just one * Volunteer would need to have git installed Thoughts? I don't know if we need an answer right away, or if we'll have a quorum in the meeting Saturday, but I'd be curious to hear what people think. Paul [1] http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/ConferenceMaterial/BoothFAQ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
