Some criticisms of GNOME
Hi all, Here's an e-mail I got from the editor of tuxmag, which details some criticisms of the desktop. It raises some points that are interesting, and to which we should probably have an answer. Cheers, Dave. Tux Editor wrote: David, The numbers come from Evans Data Corp. And it's a no-brainer to see that the numbers reflect how real people think. Without ANY help from me, my 11 year old daughter jumped right into KDE and had no problems at all using it and customizing it, right down to the way the panel looks and works. She hates GNOME with a passion, partly because it is a total enigma to her, and partly because it's so darned ugly. Okay, that's just a matter of taste, but I happen to think it's ugly, too. Mango rips GNOME a new one in the next issue for many of the reasons my daughter hates it. I used to have fun with venom, but now that Mango provides that style I let her do it and I can take a different approach to my columns. But even if I'm kinder and gentler these days (sometimes, anyway), I must agree with Mango on some things. For example, I totally agree with her upcoming statement that the file open/save dialog (I call it the file picker) is worse than bamboo shoots under fingernails. I can't imagine anything less intuitive than a GNOME/GTK file open/save dialog. That's one of the things that really made my daughter hate GNOME and GTK-based apps that use that dialog. She gets totally lost when she has to deal with that dialog. The GNOME interface is also inconsistent in the way it handles things. I won't go into detail now, but GNOME often makes things easy for a user at the cost of limiting what GNOME can do afterward. Mango hints about one of those cases, so read her column if you want an example. Her example also points out that KDE is too difficult in some ways, too, and I agree with her 100%. KDE is far from perfect. I think the spacial Nautilus is nuts, and this is coming from a person who used to love OS/2 -- and the OS/2 workplace shell worked almost the same way as Nautilus works now. I can deal with spacial Nautilus, but IMO the problem isn't the concept. The problem is that the people who went with it jumped into it too quickly. They didn't think it through and provide options for those who wouldn't like it the way THEY liked it. For example, what about those users who don't want to keep opening new windows on the desktop? Yes, I know you can FINALLY use a GUI way to change this behavior NOW. But when spacial Nautilus was introduced, the only way to change the default behavior was to change a registry setting. Now THAT is a total lack of foresight. But wait, there's more. Right-click to use the browser mode? Totally unintuitive. Windows makes that mistake, too. But wait, there's even more. Shift-double-click to close the previous window? How intuitive is that?!?!? Why not simply provide an OBVIOUS global option (a checkbox in an obvious place) that tells Nautilus to close the previous window when you navigate to another folder? If I recall correctly, even the OS/2 designers provided that option. Problem solved -- all it took was a little forethought, which is something the GNOME developers totally lack. Speaking of which, I don't know if you still can't use the shift key to close the previous window when you set GNOME to open things with a single-click, but that's yet another example of GNOME developers lacking forethought. Some people like to single-click things to activate them, and GNOME lets you switch to single-click. Yet you couldn't shift-single-click a folder to open a new one and close the previous one. Didn't anyone consider that people work differently than they do? That's just really bad QA. But what probably irks me the most about GNOME is that it forces you to choose between what OTHERS have decided your desktop should look like. This is the same as "Didn't anyone consider that people work differently than they do?" You have a tiny bit of tweaking room (you can mix and match pre-defined icons with pre-defined window styles and pre-defined widget styles), but you can't do something as simple as pick the color of window title bar. I've heard GNOMEies and GTKies say that this is deliberate design decision. It keeps people from doing something stupid like making the window title bar white and the text white (and therefore make the window title text unreadable). I'll believe that excuse when I believe in the easter bunny. Face it. GTK simply wasn't built to let normal humans customize things like the color of the window title bar, and it would be a bear to go back and re-write GTK to work that way. I suspect nobody wants to do that, so it stays the way it is, and people keep relying on the excuses for the dumb behavior. I'd be much more kind to the GNOME/GTK authors if they'd just be honest and admit they screwed up and had no real foresight when they built GTK. The exuse is lame. These are computer
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
> >-Nick Keep in mind that this Nick is Nicholas Petreley, who has "a bit of a reputation". I spoke to some of the Tux Magazine people at LWE, and have contact details for non-Nick people at Tux Magazine who I should talk to. Will report back later. - Jeff -- GNOME Summit: October 8th-10th http://live.gnome.org/Boston2005 Grind'n'wink. That is all. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
Hi, That was quite an interesting e-mail. Thanks for forwarding. How do we "deal" with it? Well, imagine the new version of OpenOffice.org which does not have the toolbars with those bold/italics/underline buttons, the left-right-center-justify buttons for paragraphs, allowing you to change fonts and font styles. You could only get them back if you tinkered the .config files. How would you feel about that? Would you be terrified? Dismayed? Why would you want to remove these basic buttons? The reason is, you should use styles when writing documents, rather than setting properties manually by changing the font size or making bold. If you want to make a heading, you use Heading 1 style. If you want it a bit different, change the style for Heading 1. If such a style does not exist, make a new one for your document. Doesn't this take time? If you learn to do this the proper way, document creation would be much more appealing. But doesn't it take time? Well, I have seen my colleagues (in different departments) that use MS Word for the thesis, they end up with a huge document with no styles at all. They manually do the table of contents (!), the table of figures and table of tables. The bibliography is a similar mess. If you go into detail in the file, you find all sort of wrong styling that makes the work unmanageable. In departments that use ancient scripts (like ancient greek), they still (2005) use 8-bit fonts that the english characters are replaced with the ancient script. They do not use Unicode, not even the way that WinXP supports. Imagine Google trying to index those files! It will crash! Just to repeat, this is PhD thesis level we are talking about. What's the moral of the story? It's lame to criticize something and reject it simply because you could not figure out how to make it work. When I first tried spatial nautilus, I felt it was weird. I tried however to use it for a few days; there should be something positive out of it. After those few days I figured out that it makes sense. You need to have shallow hierarchies (Documents, and in there only put subdirectories). You wouldn't use sparial nautilus to navigate to system directories. If you want to browse files, it's Foot/Browse files. Are GNOME developers always correct then? Well, it's an issue of the GNOME community to market the new functionality to the end-users, and I believe we are working towards this direction. Cheers, Simos David Neary wrote: Hi all, Here's an e-mail I got from the editor of tuxmag, which details some criticisms of the desktop. It raises some points that are interesting, and to which we should probably have an answer. Cheers, Dave. Tux Editor wrote: David, The numbers come from Evans Data Corp. And it's a no-brainer to see that the numbers reflect how real people think. Without ANY help from me, my 11 year old daughter jumped right into KDE and had no problems at all using it and customizing it, right down to the way the panel looks and works. She hates GNOME with a passion, partly because it is a total enigma to her, and partly because it's so darned ugly. Okay, that's just a matter of taste, but I happen to think it's ugly, too. Mango rips GNOME a new one in the next issue for many of the reasons my daughter hates it. I used to have fun with venom, but now that Mango provides that style I let her do it and I can take a different approach to my columns. But even if I'm kinder and gentler these days (sometimes, anyway), I must agree with Mango on some things. For example, I totally agree with her upcoming statement that the file open/save dialog (I call it the file picker) is worse than bamboo shoots under fingernails. I can't imagine anything less intuitive than a GNOME/GTK file open/save dialog. That's one of the things that really made my daughter hate GNOME and GTK-based apps that use that dialog. She gets totally lost when she has to deal with that dialog. The GNOME interface is also inconsistent in the way it handles things. I won't go into detail now, but GNOME often makes things easy for a user at the cost of limiting what GNOME can do afterward. Mango hints about one of those cases, so read her column if you want an example. Her example also points out that KDE is too difficult in some ways, too, and I agree with her 100%. KDE is far from perfect. I think the spacial Nautilus is nuts, and this is coming from a person who used to love OS/2 -- and the OS/2 workplace shell worked almost the same way as Nautilus works now. I can deal with spacial Nautilus, but IMO the problem isn't the concept. The problem is that the people who went with it jumped into it too quickly. They didn't think it through and provide options for those who wouldn't like it the way THEY liked it. For example, what about those users who don't want to keep opening new windows on the desktop? Yes, I know you can FINALLY use a GUI way to change this behavior NOW. But when spacial Na
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
Hi, that's no really a surprise, isn't it? Given the editor, and his well known opinon about GNOME? For those that have read no issue yet: Issue 4 spend three and a half pages to explain how to add numlockx to the GNOME startup session, and it was unneccessarily emotional. Of course, it was only the opinion of 'Mango Parfait'. It's not that hard to guess who's really writing the column. However, after talking a step back from the emotional affiliation with ones own work, it may reveal that there's some insight to be gained in the critic, even in the mail from the editor you posted. The more interesting question would be: Is GNOME able to deal with that or not? ;-) Cheers, Claus On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:56:55 +0200 David Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Here's an e-mail I got from the editor of tuxmag, which details some > criticisms of the desktop. It raises some points that are interesting, > > and to which we should probably have an answer. > > Cheers, > Dave. > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
On Monday 15 Aug 2005 23:57, Claus Schwarm wrote: > However, after talking a step back from the emotional affiliation with > ones own work, it may reveal that there's some insight to be gained in > the critic, even in the mail from the editor you posted. > > The more interesting question would be: Is GNOME able to deal with > that or not? ;-) *Warning* KDE lurker jumping in... :o) How about just authoring a considered response or two in blogs / elsewhere, then submitting your own story to Slashdot to the effect of "here's a criticism of GNOME, and here's our considered response". Be open and honest but also put the flamebaiting to rest. Really, if anyone can get that worked up at the lack of control over the colour of the window title bar then an adult response from you guys will only make the article (assuming it's similar in tenor to the forwarded email) look like a childish spat covering some interesting issues. *Back to hole from which I clambered* Regards, Tom -- I'm aware that e-mails to me may be blocked by my host because they are mistaken as spam. If this happens, please e-mail me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
Hi, Tom! if it would be really just the color issue your suggestion looks straighforward. But did you ever noticed that bad press was stopped by a reply? Especially when a larger part of readers probably thinks there's some truth in the critic? A reply doesn't change behaviour so it doesn't fix the problem if there's one. And, on the internet, it will make people believe their comments will be read, and used. If that doesn't happen, it will just lead to more frustration. For example, the editor mail reads "I have ideas if you're interested." Cool. If we don't ask for his ideas we're just a bunch of idiots that won't listen. If we ask for his suggestion, but don't implement them, we're a bunch of idiots that can't fix things even if the 'obvious' solutions are given to them. A reply will also look like a weak excuse for assumed errors (true or not). The option of blogging about the critic will a) make the replier look arrogant because it changed the place of discussion, and b) will make replies inconsistant and weak. And it will trigger more (bad) press because the press likes conflicts. You can't win a discussion with a journalist. Cheers, Claus On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:20:06 +0100 Tom Chance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > *Warning* KDE lurker jumping in... :o) > > How about just authoring a considered response or two in blogs / > elsewhere, then submitting your own story to Slashdot to the effect > of "here's a criticism of GNOME, and here's our considered response". > Be open and honest but also put the flamebaiting to rest. > > Really, if anyone can get that worked up at the lack of control over > the colour of the window title bar then an adult response from you > guys will only make the article (assuming it's similar in tenor to > the forwarded email) look like a childish spat covering some > interesting issues. > > *Back to hole from which I clambered* > > Regards, > Tom > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
> How about just authoring a considered response or two in blogs / elsewhere, > then submitting your own story to Slashdot to the effect of "here's a > criticism of GNOME, and here's our considered response". Be open and honest > but also put the flamebaiting to rest. > > Really, if anyone can get that worked up at the lack of control over the > colour of the window title bar then an adult response from you guys will only > make the article (assuming it's similar in tenor to the forwarded email) look > like a childish spat covering some interesting issues. I think Tom's right, here. A direct, civil, and honest response would probably be appreciated and hopefully prevent a few people from forming an opinion based on some heated rant. Speaking of the Slashdot crowd, would it be good to have a developer volunteer to answer for one of "top 10 questions" posts? That way, we could get a word in from our perspective, rather than unintentionally encouraging speculation. Or is most of this beyond a sanity threshold we should respond to? -Travis -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
> You can't win a discussion with a journalist. You can, by not discussing. I would apply some Art of War here and I would create a "Get the facts on GNOME"-like page with a link visible in the new homepage or the GNOME introduction page. The objective of this page would be to summarize GNOME's responses to the most usual subjects of criticism. The answers won't be like "this is not true and we are right" (except for criticisms that are objectively plain not true) but like "interesting, but in GNOME we have thought about and we have decided that our option is better because a b c". Most of the criticism I've read about GNOME is related to things that work different that the MS Windows / MacOS paradigms a normal citizen acquires in the school, at work... I mean, this daughter that hates GNOME and loves KDE has possibly a knowledge and an opinion about a proprietary OS that will look "normal" to her. Her father too, I bet. There is no usefulness to confront those paradigms directly, nor to get into Slashdot battles. We have much better things to do. I would acknowledge all criticism, think about it and discuss common answers to be published in this page we can link to when falling in those discussions. Quim -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:57:12 +0200 Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > We have much better things to do. I would > acknowledge all criticism, think about it and discuss common answers > to be published in this page we can link to when falling in those > discussions. > I basically agree. I also suggest to add a 'GNOME agenda' -- a summery of what GNOME developers want to reach in general, which principles guide their design decisions, etc. I feel there are a lot of misunderstandings or ignorance about the goals of GNOME that leads to such criticism. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
I agree with Claus and Quim and I love the way gnome works (exepting some issues with metacity and the change color thing) and I love the gtk file choser, in fact I'm doing my best to help the thunar filemanager that looks a lot like it, however only I agree with nick in a little thing: tell gtk developers to make couloring windows easier!!... I dunno if it's a good idea, but I think no code of gtk needs to be changed, all we need is a theme modifier/creator (I would write it if I knew) that made its work (creating and modifyng gtk and icon themes) with some rules defined by the engines' rules with support to change images' hue for the pixmap engine and the ability to add bits of pixmap into themes whenever the user wants to (like instead of choosing a color for the scrolbar you select a image somehow and it will use the pixmap engine)... but this is the marketing list, I'll write something better detailed with fake screenshots and everything somewhere and I'll point it to everybody and developers. (I guess I will use my blog even though it's in spanish).2005/8/16, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:57:12 +0200Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[snip]> We have much better things to do. I would> acknowledge all criticism, think about it and discuss common answers > to be published in this page we can link to when falling in those> discussions.>I basically agree.I also suggest to add a 'GNOME agenda' -- a summery of what GNOMEdevelopers want to reach in general, which principles guide their design decisions, etc.I feel there are a lot of misunderstandings or ignorance about the goalsof GNOME that leads to such criticism.Cheers,Claus--marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.orghttp://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list-- Phrodo_00-- http://ideasenteclado.blogspot.comhttp://frodo-00.deviantart.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 15:47 -0400, Javier Aravena wrote: > in a little thing: tell gtk developers to make couloring windows > easier!!... I dunno if it's a good idea You said it : this is a marketing list. Try gtk-list@gnome.org ;) -- Juan Carlos Inostroza [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The world will end in 5 minutes. Please logoff now" -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
yes, I know it and I'm sorry, I had to say it, I couldn't help myself.2005/8/16, Javier Aravena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: yes, I know it and I'm sorry, I had to say it, I couldn't help myself. vo cachai... (no había leído que erai jci)2005/8/16, Juan Carlos Inostroza < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 15:47 -0400, Javier Aravena wrote:> in a little thing: tell gtk developers to make couloring windows> easier!!...You said it : this is a marketing list. Try gtk-list@gnome.org ;)--Juan Carlos Inostroza[EMAIL PROTECTED]"The world will end in 5 minutes. Please logoff now" -- Phrodo_00--http://ideasenteclado.blogspot.com http://frodo-00.deviantart.com -- Phrodo_00--http://ideasenteclado.blogspot.comhttp://frodo-00.deviantart.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some criticisms of GNOME
> > GNOME/GTK file open/save dialog. That's one of the things that really > > made my daughter hate GNOME and GTK-based apps that use that dialog. > > She gets totally lost when she has to deal with that dialog. I think the dialog right now is very good. The only problem I have is if I have to choose a binary in Firefox or so to open a file. Then it takes ages to get a listing - and there is no way to just type in the path. I would like to see the standard "open with" dialog there. > > The GNOME interface is also inconsistent in the way it handles things. > > I won't go into detail now, but GNOME often makes things easy for a user > > at the cost of limiting what GNOME can do afterward. I do not think that this is in any way inconsistent. This makes things simpler. I bet his daughter has used Windows before. > > But wait, there's even more. Shift-double-click to close the previous > > window? How intuitive is that?!?!? I do not think that options need to be intuitive. Everybody can close a windows. > > But what probably irks me the most about GNOME is that it forces you to > > choose between what OTHERS have decided your desktop should look like. > > This is the same as "Didn't anyone consider that people work differently > > than they do?" > > This is the main difference between KDE and GNOME. And I applaud GNOME for doing so. BTW: I never got KDE to look and behave like a Mac, so KDE keeps to be KDE in many sense. I think GNOME is more elegant. I expect from a Desktop to be as stable and normative as it can be. Otherwise it is just a toolbox everybody can use like he or she wants. There is no GUI design but more a toolbox design. Nobody decides how things should actually work, so everybody uses a GUI different. Developers can not depend on it. I think one of Apples greatest work was the standardisation of the interfaces and that nearly all important Mac Apps behaved the same. I do not like programmers being creative with the interface if not necessary. And I think from teh development perspective if everything is possible you can not depend on anything. This should make development a LOT more complicated (anything can happen). I like to compare this to a car: it is not wise to build a car where interior displays and gearshift lever could be "customized". Things only fit if you know where they are, how they look and how they behave. I really would say GNOME should not try to satisfy the needs of people who want to customize everything. I can imagine this as an approach of people who use many desktops and like GNOME to look like OS/2. This might be good for some people, but it will exclude many newcomers. > > from the newbie users to the power users, and build a > > desktop to please them all. This is the Windows approach. I rather see all this as a matter of choices. I like KDE being different then GNOME. I could switch if KDE would please me better but it doesn't) > > The first step I recommend is that you ditch that > > completely absurd file picker and replace it with one that is BETTER > > than the KDE file picker. The KDE file picker is incredibly attractive > > and powerful, but it has weaknesses -- you could kick it's butt if you > > just put some thought into it. I have ideas if you're interested. This sounds like GNOME 2.8 criticism. I think the Favorites in the file picker make the file open dialog much more productive if used wisely. I am using then heavily now and I can not imagine how I could work without them. I think people are different. It is an illusion to create the perfect desktop for everyone. People get used to what the learn from previous Desktops. GNOME should make a Desktop that is easy to use, especially for new users and that makes it easy for developers to enhance and to build uppon. GNOME surely is far from perfect. But that could be said about all desktops. GNOME has moved in the right direction, but some things could be solved better. But as many things have changed to the better I am very optimistic. And I think GNOME is an exciting environment. Thilo -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards [Was: Some criticisms of GNOME]
> Here's an e-mail I got from the editor of tuxmag, which details some > criticisms of the desktop. It raises some points that are interesting, and > to which we should probably have an answer. Meanwhile, vote in the TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards, here: http://www.tuxmagazine.com/TUX_Readers_Choice - Jeff -- GNOME Summit: October 8th-10th http://live.gnome.org/Boston2005 I must be getting old... Buying toothpaste with gel in it is no longer an Absolute Necessity. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards [Was: Some criticisms of GNOME]
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 16:55 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > > Here's an e-mail I got from the editor of tuxmag, which details some > > criticisms of the desktop. It raises some points that are interesting, and > > to which we should probably have an answer. > > Meanwhile, vote in the TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards, here: > > http://www.tuxmagazine.com/TUX_Readers_Choice Speaking of user polls, should we have someone keep a look out for these sort of polls and make sure our more-than-casual users see them? -Travis -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards [Was: Some criticisms of GNOME]
> > Meanwhile, vote in the TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards, here: > > > > http://www.tuxmagazine.com/TUX_Readers_Choice > > Speaking of user polls, should we have someone keep a look out for these > sort of polls and make sure our more-than-casual users see them? Yep! Hitting Footnotes with them would be good -> I didn't mail stro. You want to? :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2006: Dunedin, New Zealand http://linux.conf.au/ "It doesn't matter if it is good, it only matters if it rocks." - Tenacious D, Rock Your Socks -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards [Was: Some criticisms of GNOME]
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 17:12 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > Meanwhile, vote in the TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards, here: > > > > > > http://www.tuxmagazine.com/TUX_Readers_Choice > > > > Speaking of user polls, should we have someone keep a look out for > these > > sort of polls and make sure our more-than-casual users see them? > > Yep! Hitting Footnotes with them would be good -> I didn't mail stro. > You > want to? :-) Thanks Travis, I was on vacation last week and missed this, I am now getting a 403 on the above link. Is the contest closed? Thanks, Luke > -- -- marketing-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards [Was: Some criticisms of GNOME]
> Thanks Travis, > > I was on vacation last week and missed this, I am now getting a 403 on > the above link. Is the contest closed? It seems to have beeen relocated here: http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/107 (Right now, we're at 27% vs. 54% for KDE) -Travis -- marketing-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: TUX Magazine Reader's Choice Awards [Was: Some criticisms of GNOME]
On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 23:30 -0700, Travis Reitter wrote: > It seems to have beeen relocated here: > http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/107 This appears to be some poll that was posted last April. Looking at the Google cache these awards were posted last Tuesday. http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:pDJmiP7LFRIJ:www.tuxmagazine.com/TUX_Readers_Choice+&hl=en -Luke -- -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
