What is GNOME?
I met with Denise last week and she pointed out: - It's very hard to tell what GNOME is from our web pages. If you don't know when you land on gnome.org, you aren't likely to figure it out. An "easy to understand desktop" doesn't really mean anything to non desktop/OS developers. When you go to About GNOME, you get a list of our values/features but not a definition, screenshot or list of projects. - It's very hard to find a list of projects in GNOME. - No where do we say what GNOME stands for. - No where do we say why we have a foot print as a logo. (There's mention of how it came about in a history here, http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/gnome-history.html, but no mention of why we/they/he thought the foot was representative.) Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know what GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the new webpage. I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? Stormy -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
2009/9/8 Stormy Peters : > I met with Denise last week and she pointed out: > > It's very hard to tell what GNOME is from our web pages. If you don't know > when you land on gnome.org, you aren't likely to figure it out. An "easy to > understand desktop" doesn't really mean anything to non desktop/OS > developers. When you go to About GNOME, you get a list of our > values/features but not a definition, screenshot or list of projects. > It's very hard to find a list of projects in GNOME. > No where do we say what GNOME stands for. > No where do we say why we have a foot print as a logo. (There's mention of > how it came about in a history here, > http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/gnome-history.html, but no mention of why > we/they/he thought the foot was representative.) > > Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know what > GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the new webpage. > > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? I think we should break it down to these: A project that aims to make computer accessible to everyone (in the wider possible meaning of accessible, 0 cost, accessible, localized...), this is the BIG meaning. Then this big meaning gets broken down to these 3 main approaches to achieve the goal: * An opensource desktop environment for open source operating systems. (This needs a non-geeky wording approach though) (Freedom for users) *A complete set of tools for developers to create apps for such environment. (Freedom for developers) * An online, world-wide community of people joined together for the pursue of GNOME's goals. My two cents. -- Un saludo, Alberto Ruiz -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
I agree we could do a better job, especially with the "who we are" and "what we do" (we being GNOME). As well as Why. The new www.gnome.org takes steps to address this, if you have a chance to review the sitemap at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/TwoPointTwentyseven/Content The first draft of the content pieces is also linked at the bottom of those pages. The goal is still to have the new site up with the GNOME 2.28 release, and both Lucas and myself are slightly behind. I've put in a request to have a test website created where we can start adding and editing the content in Plone itself. (I really struggle with doing it on the wiki, both seeing it and imagining the flow). If anyone wants to lend a hand, now is a perfect time! Paul On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: > 2009/9/8 Dave Lyon : > > On 09/08/2009 02:30 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: > >>> Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know what > >>> > GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the new > webpage. > >>> > > >>> > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? > >> I think we should break it down to these: > >> > >> A project that aims to make computer accessible to everyone (in the > >> wider possible meaning of accessible, 0 cost, accessible, > >> localized...), this is the BIG meaning. > >> > >> Then this big meaning gets broken down to these 3 main approaches to > >> achieve the goal: > >> * An opensource desktop environment for open source operating systems. > >> (This needs a non-geeky wording approach though) (Freedom for users) > >> *A complete set of tools for developers to create apps for such > >> environment. (Freedom for developers) > >> * An online, world-wide community of people joined together for the > >> pursue of GNOME's goals. > > > > I think it boils down to the big problem for any website which is > > establishing your target audience and going after them. As soon as you > > split the target into Users and Developers, or even New Users and Old > > Users, your homepage will immediately be less helpful or relevant to any > > of those groups. > > Good point, and I actually think that old users don't use > www.gnome.org that much, so we should prioritize the "I know pretty > much nothing about GNOME user" case. However, easy to reach pointers > for other possible audiences (potential developers, potential > community members) should be pointed at others parts of the website > more or less obviously. > > > In cases like this, it's usually best to go with the least 'in' group- > > the visitors new to GNOME, so they can just arrive and get the > > information at a glance. Long time GNOME users can handle a button or > > link to take them to community content and developers likewise should be > > able to handle an obvious link to targeted content. > > > > I think Alberto has the groups right but if you try to focus on three > > groups on the homepage you'll make it ineffective. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Lyon > > http://eazely.com > > -- > > marketing-list mailing list > > marketing-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > > > > > > -- > Un saludo, > Alberto Ruiz > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
2009/9/8 Dave Lyon : > On 09/08/2009 02:30 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: >>> Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know what >>> > GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the new >>> > webpage. >>> > >>> > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? >> I think we should break it down to these: >> >> A project that aims to make computer accessible to everyone (in the >> wider possible meaning of accessible, 0 cost, accessible, >> localized...), this is the BIG meaning. >> >> Then this big meaning gets broken down to these 3 main approaches to >> achieve the goal: >> * An opensource desktop environment for open source operating systems. >> (This needs a non-geeky wording approach though) (Freedom for users) >> *A complete set of tools for developers to create apps for such >> environment. (Freedom for developers) >> * An online, world-wide community of people joined together for the >> pursue of GNOME's goals. > > I think it boils down to the big problem for any website which is > establishing your target audience and going after them. As soon as you > split the target into Users and Developers, or even New Users and Old > Users, your homepage will immediately be less helpful or relevant to any > of those groups. Good point, and I actually think that old users don't use www.gnome.org that much, so we should prioritize the "I know pretty much nothing about GNOME user" case. However, easy to reach pointers for other possible audiences (potential developers, potential community members) should be pointed at others parts of the website more or less obviously. > In cases like this, it's usually best to go with the least 'in' group- > the visitors new to GNOME, so they can just arrive and get the > information at a glance. Long time GNOME users can handle a button or > link to take them to community content and developers likewise should be > able to handle an obvious link to targeted content. > > I think Alberto has the groups right but if you try to focus on three > groups on the homepage you'll make it ineffective. > > Regards, > Dave Lyon > http://eazely.com > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- Un saludo, Alberto Ruiz -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On 09/08/2009 02:30 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: >> Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know what >> > GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the new webpage. >> > >> > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? > I think we should break it down to these: > > A project that aims to make computer accessible to everyone (in the > wider possible meaning of accessible, 0 cost, accessible, > localized...), this is the BIG meaning. > > Then this big meaning gets broken down to these 3 main approaches to > achieve the goal: > * An opensource desktop environment for open source operating systems. > (This needs a non-geeky wording approach though) (Freedom for users) > *A complete set of tools for developers to create apps for such > environment. (Freedom for developers) > * An online, world-wide community of people joined together for the > pursue of GNOME's goals. I think it boils down to the big problem for any website which is establishing your target audience and going after them. As soon as you split the target into Users and Developers, or even New Users and Old Users, your homepage will immediately be less helpful or relevant to any of those groups. In cases like this, it's usually best to go with the least 'in' group- the visitors new to GNOME, so they can just arrive and get the information at a glance. Long time GNOME users can handle a button or link to take them to community content and developers likewise should be able to handle an obvious link to targeted content. I think Alberto has the groups right but if you try to focus on three groups on the homepage you'll make it ineffective. Regards, Dave Lyon http://eazely.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Alberto Ruiz wrote: > > Good point, and I actually think that old users don't use > www.gnome.org that much, so we should prioritize the "I know pretty > much nothing about GNOME user" case. However, easy to reach pointers > for other possible audiences (potential developers, potential > community members) should be pointed at others parts of the website > more or less obviously. > Actually, I think we would have the most impact reaching out to the people that kind of know what GNOME is, are open source fans but don't really know what GNOME is. Our developers and fans will use live.gnome.org or can easily be directed to a new spot on the website. The newbies will be very hard to educate. But the people that are users or fans but not following all the mailing lists, those might be the ones to target with the web page. They are also the people donating to Friends of GNOME and as Diego says, they might be most open to our humanitarian causes. Just a thought. Make it easy for the experts to find what they need, target our fans who aren't members of the project, and not worry too much about the newbies quite yet. Stormy > > > In cases like this, it's usually best to go with the least 'in' group- > > the visitors new to GNOME, so they can just arrive and get the > > information at a glance. Long time GNOME users can handle a button or > > link to take them to community content and developers likewise should be > > able to handle an obvious link to targeted content. > > > > I think Alberto has the groups right but if you try to focus on three > > groups on the homepage you'll make it ineffective. > > > > Regards, > > Dave Lyon > > http://eazely.com > > -- > > marketing-list mailing list > > marketing-list@gnome.org > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > > > > > > -- > Un saludo, > Alberto Ruiz > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 11:24 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > I met with Denise last week and she pointed out: > * It's very hard to tell what GNOME is from our web pages. If > you don't know when you land on gnome.org, you aren't likely > to figure it out. An "easy to understand desktop" doesn't > really mean anything to non desktop/OS developers. When you go > to About GNOME, you get a list of our values/features but not > a definition, screenshot or list of projects. Just a small comment: >From my personal experience, people feels more interested and motivated when they perceive our work as humanitarian and 'making the world better' style. Specially I'd say that "What we do" plus "Why we do it" are points to be crafted carefully with this in mind. Friends of GNOME is a good example of this. just that :-) -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Stormy Peters wrote: > It's very hard to tell what GNOME is from our web pages. If you don't know > when you land on gnome.org, you aren't likely to figure it out. An "easy to > understand desktop" doesn't really mean anything to non desktop/OS > developers. When you go to About GNOME, you get a list of our > values/features but not a definition, screenshot or list of projects. >From the (now infrequent) "Introduction to GNOME" sessions that I did, a standard query has been "is GNOME a product". This is further complicated when one lands on gnome.org and, reads the "easy to understand desktop" bit. Admittedly, there isn't an easy way (at least, it was not evident to me) around this paradox. I understand that the "definition" is more of a vision statement and, not a technical definition per se. > It's very hard to find a list of projects in GNOME. This is somewhat linked to the "what is GNOME" problem I'd guess. And, would projects mean projects that use the gnome.org infrastructure for hosting or, ones that constitute pretty boxes when tries to visualize the GNOME "ecosystem" (another cliched word *sigh*) ? > No where do we say what GNOME stands for. > No where do we say why we have a foot print as a logo. (There's mention of > how it came about in a history here, > http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/gnome-history.html, but no mention of why > we/they/he thought the foot was representative.) The above is an interesting catch :) > Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know what > GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the new webpage. > > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? I have been reading up on the Fedora Community pages and, thoughts behind the designs. Being an ignorant chap myself, I do get amazed at how simple tweaks can change the end-user perception of a project entry page. <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009> has a bunch of links that can help when discussing a redesign for the gnome.org page. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay <http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog> -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
Just because one can point out some objections, doesn't mean it's worth listening. It's not easy to find a list of projects? What about visiting the homepage and -- watch out, this is going to be complicated: -- clicking the link called "projects"? Also, in all these years I'm reading online discussions about GNOME, I never ever noticed someone who asked: "Does anyone know why GNOME's logo is a foot print?" Is this really important stuff we should could care about? The new version of the homepage content is in the wiki for months now. Did anyone tried to help fill the missing bits? Or proof-read? I've wasted countless hours to move the content from common HTML pages to the wiki so that people can participate -- just to learn that one doesn't get "the flow" now and the rest silently ignores every call for participation. But just post some unreflected objections and people respond. WTF. At least, someone could have had the idea to check whether these non-issues apply in the current 'development' version. Regards, Claus On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 11:24 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > I met with Denise last week and she pointed out: > * It's very hard to tell what GNOME is from our web pages. If > you don't know when you land on gnome.org, you aren't likely > to figure it out. An "easy to understand desktop" doesn't > really mean anything to non desktop/OS developers. When you go > to About GNOME, you get a list of our values/features but not > a definition, screenshot or list of projects. > * It's very hard to find a list of projects in GNOME. > * No where do we say what GNOME stands for. > * No where do we say why we have a foot print as a logo. > (There's mention of how it came about in a history here, > http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/gnome-history.html, but no > mention of why we/they/he thought the foot was > representative.) > Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know > what GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the > new webpage. > > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? > > Stormy -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Claus Schwarm wrote: > Just because one can point out some objections, doesn't mean it's worth > listening. > > It's not easy to find a list of projects? What about visiting the > homepage and -- watch out, this is going to be complicated: -- clicking > the link called "projects"? > Maybe I didn't express this one well. And actually, your point makes it clear to me I've not been thinking about it the the right way. It's not clear that GNOME is a bunch of projects. We don't say "GNOME is a group of projects that make an easy to use, free and accessible for all desktop." We say GNOME is a desktop. I'd say most people that use GNOME are unaware that it also includes a lot of projects. > > Also, in all these years I'm reading online discussions about GNOME, I > never ever noticed someone who asked: "Does anyone know why GNOME's logo > is a foot print?" > > Is this really important stuff we should could care about? > I don't know. It's feedback. From somebody who was really curious about what GNOME is and was having trouble figuring it out. Personally, I think logos are just logos and it doesn't really matter after a while. But for someone trying to figure out what GNOME is, perhaps it's confusing. It's always valid to say "we heard your feedback and we decided not to do anything." > > The new version of the homepage content is in the wiki for months now. > Did anyone tried to help fill the missing bits? Or proof-read? > Sorry, I've been meaning to help with the edits. > > I've wasted countless hours to move the content from common HTML pages > to the wiki so that people can participate -- just to learn that one > doesn't get "the flow" now and the rest silently ignores every call for > participation. > I didn't get that people were complaining about the new website. I think the conversation actually transitioned into a "who do we target" which is a very good marketing question to answer. At least, someone could have had the idea to check whether these > non-issues apply in the current 'development' version. > I'll take that as a constructive suggestion and check it out. Someone not being able to figure out what GNOME is, is not a non issue unless we decide we aren't targeting that type of user. And we said on this list that we are targeting newbies. Also, I get a *lot* of questions and random, very random, feedback. I'm trying to pass on the feedback to places it makes sense. And screen those that wouldn't be useful. Some I answer, some I delete, some I pass on to the board, some to marketing, some to mobile. In this case I was trying to pass on feedback to marketing. Stormy -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On 09/09/2009 09:13 AM, Claus Schwarm wrote: > Just because one can point out some objections, doesn't mean it's worth > listening. Sorry Claus, I'm new to the list and was just adding to the discussion. I'm a corporate webmaster and thought I had something valuable to contribute. I wasn't making a case for changing anything planned or starting over. It was more of a mindset change than a page change I was advocating. If anything, I know that a) a website is never 'finished' and b) it doesn't matter that it's not because you can change it at any time and everyone gets the update immediately. Thanks for all you do, Dave Lyon http://eazely.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
Thanks for your answer. Also to Paul and Dave! I also appreciate that Denise dedicated her time to make a difference. I'd usually love to hear her opinion! But one feedback doesn't make data. After all, the points she mentions are either well-known or irrelevant. Related issues -- like the target audience question -- have been discussed here for years! Over and over, again. Another opinion (and discussion) isn't going to change anything. For every mail that was written in this thread, its author could have picked one content page in the wiki and read it. And correct an error. Or improve a formulation. Or fix just one TODO. Everyone could start with it today. That would change something. :-) Best regards, Claus On Wed, 2009-09-09 at 08:33 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Claus Schwarm > wrote: > Just because one can point out some objections, doesn't mean > it's worth > listening. > > It's not easy to find a list of projects? What about visiting > the > homepage and -- watch out, this is going to be complicated: -- > clicking > the link called "projects"? > > Maybe I didn't express this one well. And actually, your point makes > it clear to me I've not been thinking about it the the right way. > > It's not clear that GNOME is a bunch of projects. We don't say "GNOME > is a group of projects that make an easy to use, free and accessible > for all desktop." We say GNOME is a desktop. > > I'd say most people that use GNOME are unaware that it also includes a > lot of projects. > > > Also, in all these years I'm reading online discussions about > GNOME, I > never ever noticed someone who asked: "Does anyone know why > GNOME's logo > is a foot print?" > > Is this really important stuff we should could care about? > > I don't know. It's feedback. From somebody who was really curious > about what GNOME is and was having trouble figuring it out. > > Personally, I think logos are just logos and it doesn't really matter > after a while. But for someone trying to figure out what GNOME is, > perhaps it's confusing. It's always valid to say "we heard your > feedback and we decided not to do anything." > > > The new version of the homepage content is in the wiki for > months now. > Did anyone tried to help fill the missing bits? Or proof-read? > > Sorry, I've been meaning to help with the edits. > > > I've wasted countless hours to move the content from common > HTML pages > to the wiki so that people can participate -- just to learn > that one > doesn't get "the flow" now and the rest silently ignores every > call for > participation. > > I didn't get that people were complaining about the new website. I > think the conversation actually transitioned into a "who do we target" > which is a very good marketing question to answer. > > > At least, someone could have had the idea to check whether > these > non-issues apply in the current 'development' version. > > I'll take that as a constructive suggestion and check it out. > > > Someone not being able to figure out what GNOME is, is not a non issue > unless we decide we aren't targeting that type of user. And we said on > this list that we are targeting newbies. > > Also, I get a *lot* of questions and random, very random, feedback. > I'm trying to pass on the feedback to places it makes sense. And > screen those that wouldn't be useful. Some I answer, some I delete, > some I pass on to the board, some to marketing, some to mobile. In > this case I was trying to pass on feedback to marketing. > > Stormy > > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME?
On Tue, 2009-09-08 at 11:24 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > I met with Denise last week and she pointed out: > * It's very hard to tell what GNOME is from our web pages. If > you don't know when you land on gnome.org, you aren't likely > to figure it out. An "easy to understand desktop" doesn't > really mean anything to non desktop/OS developers. When you go > to About GNOME, you get a list of our values/features but not > a definition, screenshot or list of projects. > * It's very hard to find a list of projects in GNOME. > * No where do we say what GNOME stands for. > * No where do we say why we have a foot print as a logo. > (There's mention of how it came about in a history here, > http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/gnome-history.html, but no > mention of why we/they/he thought the foot was > representative.) > Our current web pages are pretty much for people that already know > what GNOME is, but we might want to rethink that as we roll out the > new webpage. > > I think it's a marketing problem. Thoughts? Aren't these points addressed by the new website content already? -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The "What is GNOME?" Answer
* Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [03/09/04 04:31]: > We need a refresh to our standard "What is GNOME?" answer and elevator > pitch. GNOME is complete, free, easy-to-use software for your personal computer, donated to you by an elite team of software developers from all walks of life. -- Robert McMeekin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The "What is GNOME?" Answer
On Thu, 2004-03-11 at 16:25, Robert McMeekin wrote: > * Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [03/09/04 04:31]: > > We need a refresh to our standard "What is GNOME?" answer and elevator > > pitch. > > GNOME is complete, free, easy-to-use software for your personal > computer... Good! > ...donated to you by an elite team of software developers from > all walks of life. Bad! It's not 'donated' (implying a one-way material transaction) and the developers might be l33t but they're not elite - it's not about status. ;) Perhaps: "GNOME is complete easy-to-use software for your personal computer created, by a large community of people from all walks of life, to be freely used by anybody, anywhere." (Also 'easy-to-use' and 'intuitive' are interchangable.) -- - Charlie Charles Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Online @ http://www.charlietech.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Hi team (Sorry, this is a long post. Key points are marked by ) This list is characterised by people saying things like: - What users really want is - Actually, most users don't do that at all. They ... - Most users don't ... And so on. I have been lurking on this list for quite some time now and have been struggling to understand what it means to "market" GNOME. (Btw, is it Gnome or GNOME? Does it matter?) Most of the discussion seems to make the implicit or explicit assumption that what the marketers of GNOME want is more users. Why? If you get more users you will then get more (probably clueless) bug reports (that need to be triaged), more feature requests, more inane questions, lowered signal-to-noise ratio on communication channels etc. What's in it for you guys? (This is a rhetorical question: I think I know the answer. And of course it begs the question "Who, exactly, are the producers/manufacturers/owners of GNOME?") The motivations of the producers need to be stated clearly before the marketing team can make any meaningful progress. I suspect the answer boils down to some variant of frustration at the general crappiness of interacting with one's personal computer, and the frustration of having to rely on money-grubbing unethical corporations for the privilege of doing so. And getting gouged again and again for it. When I try to explain what GNU/Linux and GNOME is to people who don't know what an operating system is (or even a file, folder/directory or hard drive sometimes) I almost always say things like: 1. You know how there's always stories in the news about viruses, and how when you browse the web you get all sorts of pop-up windows trying to scam you, so that using the Internet is an uncertain and scary experience? Well, the system I use has none (OK, not none, but hardly any) of that. 2. You know how if the software you're using doesn't work right, you can't do anything about it. If you email the company, nothing happens, or they tell you to buy the next version, but won't promise that your problem will be fixed? Well, the system I use is written by people who love to get bug reports and often will fix bugs and release new versions (for free!) in a few weeks or even days! And there is a large community of people who can (and will) answer your questions on-line. And it's all free! (I used to say "You know how Windows crashes all the time?" but now I don't because later versions of Windows seem significantly more stable to me.) These, IMHO, are the reasons that will resonate with people, be they clueless newbies or CTOs. It's all about slowly eliminating all the hassles of interacting with your computer and the Internet. The fastest way to do that seems to me to be the Free Software way. This is all very pragmatic of course. RMS would probably have a fit. I do find, however, that when I talk about the philosophical points of Free Software, that people understand easily. For the end user (rather than the CTO) RMS's points are simple and easy to understand. Maybe that's a cultural thing (I'm in New Zealand). So, after all this blathering I propose that any "What is GNOME" answers touch on the two points above. Next: finding out what people want. I am interested in making it less of a hassle to interact with computers and the Internet. I have not delved into the literature, but I suspect that perhaps it doesn't exist. However I have the following to offer. I work in a university. In my building we have half a dozen computer labs that seat around 30 people each. The users in these labs are a mixture ranging from arts and humanities students who are the most clueless newbs imaginable to computer science postgrads. They are all monitored by CCTV. I have an opportunity to (a) observe people using computers (b) ask them questions about it I have a few vague ideas about what I would like to know, but I would rather ask for your burning questions. Specifically, when discussing the issues that are raised in this list, what assumptions do you make about how users act and what they think? I can test whether these assumptions are in fact true. I may be able to get a grant from my school (of Business) to conduct a proper study. I apologise for the length of this post (It's pretty much flow-of-consciousness. Perhaps it would have been better as two separate posts. Oh well, too late now. I have to go. Bye!) -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Thanks for the writing and thinking, John. I'm reading now and hope to have a coherent response in the next few days- I hope others will as well. Luis On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:07:25 +1300, John Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi team > > (Sorry, this is a long post. Key points are marked by ) > > This list is characterised by people saying things like: > > - What users really want is > - Actually, most users don't do that at all. They ... > - Most users don't ... > > And so on. > > I have been lurking on this list for quite some time now and have been > struggling to understand what it means to "market" GNOME. (Btw, is it > Gnome or GNOME? Does it matter?) Most of the discussion seems to make > the implicit or explicit assumption that what the marketers of GNOME > want is more users. > > Why? > > If you get more users you will then get more (probably clueless) bug > reports (that need to be triaged), more feature requests, more inane > questions, lowered signal-to-noise ratio on communication channels etc. > > What's in it for you guys? (This is a rhetorical question: I think I > know the answer. And of course it begs the question "Who, exactly, are > the producers/manufacturers/owners of GNOME?") The motivations of the > producers need to be stated clearly before the marketing team can make > any meaningful progress. > > I suspect the answer boils down to some variant of frustration at the > general crappiness of interacting with one's personal computer, and the > frustration of having to rely on money-grubbing unethical corporations > for the privilege of doing so. And getting gouged again and again for > it. > > When I try to explain what GNU/Linux and GNOME is to people who don't > know what an operating system is (or even a file, folder/directory or > hard drive sometimes) I almost always say things like: > > 1. You know how there's always stories in the news about viruses, and > how when you browse the web you get all sorts of pop-up windows trying > to scam you, so that using the Internet is an uncertain and scary > experience? Well, the system I use has none (OK, not none, but hardly > any) of that. > > 2. You know how if the software you're using doesn't work right, you > can't do anything about it. If you email the company, nothing happens, > or they tell you to buy the next version, but won't promise that your > problem will be fixed? Well, the system I use is written by people who > love to get bug reports and often will fix bugs and release new versions > (for free!) in a few weeks or even days! And there is a large community > of people who can (and will) answer your questions on-line. And it's > all free! > > (I used to say "You know how Windows crashes all the time?" but now I > don't because later versions of Windows seem significantly more stable > to me.) > > These, IMHO, are the reasons that will resonate with people, be they > clueless newbies or CTOs. It's all about slowly eliminating all the > hassles of interacting with your computer and the Internet. The fastest > way to do that seems to me to be the Free Software way. > > This is all very pragmatic of course. RMS would probably have a fit. I > do find, however, that when I talk about the philosophical points of > Free Software, that people understand easily. For the end user (rather > than the CTO) RMS's points are simple and easy to understand. Maybe > that's a cultural thing (I'm in New Zealand). > > So, after all this blathering I propose that any "What is GNOME" > answers touch on the two points above. > > Next: finding out what people want. > > I am interested in making it less of a hassle to interact with computers > and the Internet. I have not delved into the literature, but I suspect > that perhaps it doesn't exist. However I have the following to offer. > > I work in a university. In my building we have half a dozen > computer labs that seat around 30 people each. The users in these labs > are a mixture ranging from arts and humanities students who are the most > clueless newbs imaginable to computer science postgrads. They are all > monitored by CCTV. I have an opportunity to > > (a) observe people using computers > (b) ask them questions about it > > I have a few vague ideas about what I would like to know, but I would > rather ask for your burning questions. Specifically, when discussing > the issues that are raised in this list, what assumptions do you make > about how users act and what they think? I can test whether these > ass
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Hi, John. On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:07:25 +1300 "John Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have a few vague ideas about what I would like to know, but I would > rather ask for your burning questions. Specifically, when discussing > the issues that are raised in this list, what assumptions do you make > about how users act and what they think? I can test whether these > assumptions are in fact true. > I just read an interview with Matthias Ettrich, KDE founder and Qt developer, see [1]. He said: "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid Gtk+ or Gnome-based applications. This creates unhealthy pressure to clone any good idea that shows up in one camp, which in turns creates lesser friendly feelings towards each other." I agree to this observation but what I'd be interested in: Why is this so? A few possible answers have already be discussed in the GNOME support forum. 1. Beauty: Changing a theme for one toolkit usually means to manually find a similar theme for the other toolkit and manually set it up. But themes don't change some things, for example the tree widgets. 2. Confusion: If you are used to one buttom order, apps that use the other one, can be irritating. 3. Efforts: Desktop integration also means to learn some general things. Learning two of those is inconvinient, and sometimes also confusing. 4. Low ressources: If you don't have a lot of memory on your system, running both QT and GTK can slow up your system. Questions, I'd be interested in: Is there any other possible answer not mentioned yet? Which of these answers is the most important? Is there a difference in jugdement about these reasons between "experienced" user and starters? Answers on these questions might be helpful for GNOME, KDE, and freedesktop.org to build appropriate policies: What needs to be done to lessen the gap between both camps? Maybe a sort of dbus based desktop identification for apps: "I'm running under gnome, thus I should not show images in dialogs, use gconf for storing infos, and show the other bottom order."-sort of thing. IMHO, higher consistency would make Linux on the desktop more likely, so answers on these questions are very relevant. Cheers, Claus [1] http://www.fosdem.org/2005/index/interviews/interviews_ettrich -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Hi Claus, Selon Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil > avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid Gtk+ or > Gnome-based applications. This creates unhealthy pressure to clone any > good idea that shows up in one camp, which in turns creates lesser > friendly feelings towards each other." > > I agree to this observation but what I'd be interested in: Why is this > so? I suspect the reason is partially technical - when you start a KDE or GNOME application, you load big chunks of desktop infrastructure into memory. Running a couple of GNOME apps on your KDE desktop is roughly equivalent to running KDE and GNOME together, at the same time. So everything slows down, and the user experience is not as nice. Abstracting chunks of functionality to freedesktop, and sharing infrastructure between KDE and GNOME is one way to reduce this issue. > 1. Beauty: Changing a theme for one toolkit usually means to manually > find a similar theme for the other toolkit and manually set it up. But > themes don't change some things, for example the tree widgets. There is that, as well. In general, KDE apps don't look well on a GNOME desktop, and vice versa. > 2. Confusion: If you are used to one buttom order, apps that use the > other one, can be irritating. This will be less of an issue over the coming months. In CVS, the GIMP already respects the GTK+ "alternative button ordering" preference, which allows KDE users to specify a preference in their gtkrc. > 4. Low ressources: If you don't have a lot of memory on your system, > running both QT and GTK can slow up your system. This is the one which has most affected me. > Questions, I'd be interested in: Is there any other possible answer not > mentioned yet? Which of these answers is the most important? Is there a > difference in jugdement about these reasons between "experienced" user > and starters? I think there's a part religion in it too. The Ks versus the Gs. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary Lyon, France -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 02:21 +0100, Claus Schwarm wrote: > I just read an interview with Matthias Ettrich, KDE founder and Qt > developer, see [1]. He said: > > "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil > avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid Gtk+ or > Gnome-based applications. Maybe this is true for a typical techy fan of one desktop or the other, but I don't think it's true of the typical user, who just doesn't care about the underlying technology. [snip] -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:38:40 +0100 Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 02:21 +0100, Claus Schwarm wrote: > > I just read an interview with Matthias Ettrich, KDE founder and Qt > > developer, see [1]. He said: > > > > "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil > > avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid > > Gtk+ or Gnome-based applications. > > Maybe this is true for a typical techy fan of one desktop or the > other, but I don't think it's true of the typical user, who just > doesn't care about the underlying technology. > Hi, is this an either/or classification? Is a user either a "techy desktop fan" and thus cares about the technology, or a 'typical user' and thus cares not? Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
On Sat, 2005-02-12 at 19:39 +0100, Claus Schwarm wrote: > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:38:40 +0100 > Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 02:21 +0100, Claus Schwarm wrote: > > > I just read an interview with Matthias Ettrich, KDE founder and Qt > > > developer, see [1]. He said: > > > > > > "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil > > > avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid > > > Gtk+ or Gnome-based applications. > > > > Maybe this is true for a typical techy fan of one desktop or the > > other, but I don't think it's true of the typical user, who just > > doesn't care about the underlying technology. > > > > Hi, > > is this an either/or classification? Is a user either a "techy desktop > fan" and thus cares about the technology, or a 'typical user' and thus > cares not? A typical user has other things to care about than the technological details. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:21:27 +0100, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I just read an interview with Matthias Ettrich, KDE founder and Qt > developer, see [1]. He said: > > "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil > avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid Gtk+ or > Gnome-based applications. This creates unhealthy pressure to clone any > good idea that shows up in one camp, which in turns creates lesser > friendly feelings towards each other." The interview is http://www.fosdem.org/index/interviews/interviews_ettrich , and in the paragraph that this quote came from, Matthias Ettrich was talking about user camps... he clearly stated that this rift really isn't a big issue among developers. Why does it exist? For better or worse, many users will associate the tech they use with their identity, and ego is a powerful thing... Just look at your average iPod user. While it is natural that some people will feel strongly about one platform over another, trying to harness all of that power for good would be as tough as hearding cats. I'd also submit the tech rift isn't large. "Beauty, Confusion, Efforts, and Resources" highlight inconviences that could be overcome, and are hardly showstoppers for either platform or their apps... The problem is that IT press is quick to highlight them as talking points for lack of anything better, and die-hard fans are quick to adopt them. > ... > IMHO, higher consistency would make Linux on the desktop more likely, so > answers on these questions are very relevant. I don't think consistency requires much marketing focus, as the users that benefit are almost in a niche... Either GNOME or KDE on their own may be more than capable of serving basic needs for many people, everything from web browsing to solitaire. Going back to John's questions... I'd like to see energy go to target markets that have not yet been exposed to either KDE or GNOME. For example, much of the IT market outside of America has been living under a very real and damaging culture of software piracy. After people have rationalized piracy of foreign software (yes, you know what I'm talking about...), then they are a hop, skip and jump away from doing the same to domestic software, music, and movies. There are efforts to turn back the clock underway, exhibit A being software patent efforts in Europe. Having GNOME as an option means that vulnerable IT departments can ethically deploy desktop software without the same track record of vulnerability and usability of software that came before, and at an affordable price. It's just one of many openings that "just works". BTW, sorry... I signed up to the list so I could work on art and media rather than ramble on about these subjects... :) -Richard Hoelscher http://rahga.com/svg/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Hi Richard, Richard Hoelscher wrote: > BTW, sorry... I signed up to the list so I could work on art and media > rather than ramble on about these subjects... :) Great! Really, we have a lack of artists around here. And I'm one of the lacking... Would you like to come up with some sketched for GNOME posters, based around the core theme we came up with: "GNOME: Software for everybody" (Luis likes a second theme, which is related, "GNOME: the desktop of choice" (could this get us in trouble with Pepsi? ;) Sebastien Biot was working on some posters, and we were going to brainstorm on them, but I let him down... another artist might be just the ticket to get things back on track. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CV: http://dneary.free.fr/CV/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Yeah, that would be really sweet if you could work on art type things. I've been trying to recruit my brother but he doesn't "get it" yet. If I can get him to start using Ubuntu I might have some chance to get him to do some art. So the more artists the better. sri On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 08:51:32PM -0600, Richard Hoelscher wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:21:27 +0100, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I just read an interview with Matthias Ettrich, KDE founder and Qt > > developer, see [1]. He said: > > > > "A typical GNOME user seems to avoid KDE applications as the devil > > avoids holy water. Vice versa, a typical KDE user tends to avoid Gtk+ or > > Gnome-based applications. This creates unhealthy pressure to clone any > > good idea that shows up in one camp, which in turns creates lesser > > friendly feelings towards each other." > > The interview is > http://www.fosdem.org/index/interviews/interviews_ettrich , and in the > paragraph that this quote came from, Matthias Ettrich was talking > about user camps... he clearly stated that this rift really isn't a > big issue among developers. > > Why does it exist? For better or worse, many users will associate the > tech they use with their identity, and ego is a powerful thing... Just > look at your average iPod user. While it is natural that some people > will feel strongly about one platform over another, trying to harness > all of that power for good would be as tough as hearding cats. > > I'd also submit the tech rift isn't large. "Beauty, Confusion, > Efforts, and Resources" highlight inconviences that could be overcome, > and are hardly showstoppers for either platform or their apps... The > problem is that IT press is quick to highlight them as talking points > for lack of anything better, and die-hard fans are quick to adopt > them. > > > ... > > IMHO, higher consistency would make Linux on the desktop more likely, so > > answers on these questions are very relevant. > > I don't think consistency requires much marketing focus, as the users > that benefit are almost in a niche... Either GNOME or KDE on their own > may be more than capable of serving basic needs for many people, > everything from web browsing to solitaire. > > Going back to John's questions... I'd like to see energy go to target > markets that have not yet been exposed to either KDE or GNOME. For > example, much of the IT market outside of America has been living > under a very real and damaging culture of software piracy. After > people have rationalized piracy of foreign software (yes, you know > what I'm talking about...), then they are a hop, skip and jump away > from doing the same to domestic software, music, and movies. There are > efforts to turn back the clock underway, exhibit A being software > patent efforts in Europe. > > Having GNOME as an option means that vulnerable IT departments can > ethically deploy desktop software without the same track record of > vulnerability and usability of software that came before, and at an > affordable price. It's just one of many openings that "just works". > > BTW, sorry... I signed up to the list so I could work on art and media > rather than ramble on about these subjects... :) > > -Richard Hoelscher > http://rahga.com/svg/ > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: What is GNOME and Getting some real data on users
Hi all. Please start a new thread for this discussion. It has nothing to do with the title of the thread. I mean this in a kind, loving, inclusive way. :-) -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
