marketing bof?
When are we doing teh marketing bof again? I seem to have forgotten. Also, Alex are you (or Bill) planning on coming to GUADEC? -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: marketing bof?
Hello Sri, For me is totally impossible to make it. I need to deliver a project by Aug 15, testing it for 3 weeks and launch it in mid Sept. Deadlines are quite strict on this :( I hope you will have videos of speeches! On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: > When are we doing teh marketing bof again? I seem to have forgotten. > Also, Alex are you (or Bill) planning on coming to GUADEC? > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: marketing bof?
Sri, Marketing BoF will be on August 6th, during the morning (Web on August 6th, during the afternoon, and ideally FoG on August 7th). Fabiana On 07/20/2013 01:49 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: When are we doing teh marketing bof again? I seem to have forgotten. Also, Alex are you (or Bill) planning on coming to GUADEC? -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: marketing bof?
Great, thanks Fabiana, I'll stick it in my calendar. Alex - I'm sorry that you won't be able to attend. It would have been great to meet and talk strategic things. But I completely understand about deadlines. :) On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Fabiana Simões wrote: > Sri, > > Marketing BoF will be on August 6th, during the morning (Web on August > 6th, during the afternoon, and ideally FoG on August 7th). > > Fabiana > > > On 07/20/2013 01:49 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: > > When are we doing teh marketing bof again? I seem to have forgotten. > Also, Alex are you (or Bill) planning on coming to GUADEC? > > > > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
A dump of my notes (slightly expanded) from the discussion on 'Evangelist Users' at the LCA marketing BOF. In a nutshell, the discussion was about users who go out and evangelize GNOME- how have firefox/KDE been so succesful at this, why are we not doing so hot, how can we (should we?) etc. My notes, with my editorial comments as Ed.: MozillaOrg does a good job of this, see spreadfirefox.com jeff: 'hemorrhaging users' because we haven't reached out to the early adopters, etc.- not leveraging community to do our marketing for us. (Ed.: I'm not sure we're actually hemorrhaghing users, as we have no actual numbers on this, but we're certainly not leveraging the users we have for this.) mozilla used to have an active HTML correctness evangelism team, do we need a 'media correctness team' to go out to bad (FUD-y?) articles/media and show them how great gnome is/or research why they didn't like it? need to hype our user forums more? how did UbuntuCom get such great, friendly forum? how do we make gnome 1337 without compromising our 'core values'? (flip side: os/x is not particularly 1337, or not compromised, but obviously it gets evangelized- partially because of the depth/flexibility- easy for newbies, powerful for experts) alternately: how do we make gnome more fun? maybe better question than making ourselves more 1337? get a superstar? we as developers need to be more public, more unabashed about our endorsements- havoc, miguel? what about kernel people? others? -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
Some major flaws in current gnome marketing: Gnome does not really promote its ease of use. Havoc's README that comes with the metacity package simply needs to be polished up into a press-printable form (shorter, less rant, less technical). nautilus-cd-burner is hidden away as it obviously can't compete with k3b but in fact it's the other way round: k3b can't compete with nautilus-cd-burner in terms of ease of use. It's just three weeks ago that I demonstrated this fact to somebody and he was completly stunned how simple it is to make backups of his data simply by drag and drop. KDE embraces Gnome apps where there is no equivalent (gimp,inkscape) as well as technology (gnome-volume-manager). These apps are often not perceived as Gnome apps from KDE users. So one just needs to tell them ;-) Knoppix was one of the major precursors for KDE and there is still no real competition. It was spread out hundreds of thousands of copies with PC-Magazines and the like, being the first contact with linux for many people. Imho konppix is the absolut no.1 hit in KDE marketing. There are even books now about knoppix. The Gnome website is - what? It exists. But from a marketing point of view it is not much. The navigation is sub optimal. And the layout is sub optimal. Some good information is now on gnomefiles but unless you know what you are looking for it is far from perfect. On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 08:47 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > A dump of my notes (slightly expanded) from the discussion on > 'Evangelist Users' at the LCA marketing BOF. In a nutshell, the > discussion was about users who go out and evangelize GNOME- how have > firefox/KDE been so succesful at this, why are we not doing so hot, > how can we (should we?) etc. My notes, with my editorial comments as > Ed.: > > MozillaOrg does a good job of this, see spreadfirefox.com > > jeff: 'hemorrhaging users' because we haven't reached out to the early > adopters, etc.- not leveraging community to do our marketing for us. > (Ed.: I'm not sure we're actually hemorrhaghing users, as we have no > actual numbers on this, but we're certainly not leveraging the users > we have for this.) > > mozilla used to have an active HTML correctness evangelism team, do we > need a 'media correctness team' to go out to bad (FUD-y?) > articles/media and show them how great gnome is/or research why they > didn't like it? > > need to hype our user forums more? how did UbuntuCom get such great, > friendly forum? > > how do we make gnome 1337 without compromising our 'core values'? > (flip side: os/x is not particularly 1337, or not compromised, but > obviously it gets evangelized- partially because of the > depth/flexibility- easy for newbies, powerful for experts) > > alternately: how do we make gnome more fun? maybe better question than > making ourselves more 1337? > > get a superstar? we as developers need to be more public, more > unabashed about our endorsements- havoc, miguel? what about kernel > people? others? -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On 5/19/05, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some major flaws in current gnome marketing: There are many :) > Gnome does not really promote its ease of use. We don't very effectively, you're right. When I promote it at LWE (because usability is practically the /only/ thing I talk about at conferences or when I sell GNOME in other contexts, like press releases), people's jaws drop, as you saw when you pointed out n-c-b. We should be doing more, though I'm not sure how to structure the website and other materials to do that better. >Havoc's README that comes > with the metacity package simply needs to be polished up into a > press-printable form (shorter, less rant, less technical). Which part? > KDE embraces Gnome apps where there is no equivalent (gimp,inkscape) as > well as technology (gnome-volume-manager). These apps are often not > perceived as Gnome apps from KDE users. So one just needs to tell > them ;-) This is part of why I like the 'heart of the desktop' theme; we get to take credit for things like gimp, inkscape, etc. [Note that while I agree that usability is our strongest argument, that isn't the same as making it our strongest slogan- I think the slogan first needs to convey who we are, and be phrased so as to allow us to simply/easily tie in our strong arguments, like usability, after the fact.] > Knoppix was one of the major precursors for KDE and there is still no > real competition. It was spread out hundreds of thousands of copies with > PC-Magazines and the like, being the first contact with linux for many > people. Imho konppix is the absolut no.1 hit in KDE marketing. There are > even books now about knoppix. Well, let's get cracking on making the GNOME liveCD similarly well publicized :) Besides the language stuff you and I are hopefully working on, I want to do things like: * work with the Ubuntu folks to make the first truly accessible Linux liveCD * work with the monoppix folks (or others) to make the best mono liveCD Those are the offhand things- I'm sure there are others. > The Gnome website is - what? It exists. But from a marketing point of > view it is not much. The navigation is sub optimal. And the layout is > sub optimal. Some good information is now on gnomefiles but unless you > know what you are looking for it is far from perfect. It should be totally redone. Any suggestions on how are welcome. The reality is, though, that it is a large task and until we agree on some bigger-picture stuff (like markets, themes, goals, etc.) it is hard to rework the whole thing consistently. Luis (who some days thinks he should just take a month and rewrite the thing after some card-sort excercizes with people) > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 08:47 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > A dump of my notes (slightly expanded) from the discussion on > > 'Evangelist Users' at the LCA marketing BOF. In a nutshell, the > > discussion was about users who go out and evangelize GNOME- how have > > firefox/KDE been so succesful at this, why are we not doing so hot, > > how can we (should we?) etc. My notes, with my editorial comments as > > Ed.: > > > > MozillaOrg does a good job of this, see spreadfirefox.com > > > > jeff: 'hemorrhaging users' because we haven't reached out to the early > > adopters, etc.- not leveraging community to do our marketing for us. > > (Ed.: I'm not sure we're actually hemorrhaghing users, as we have no > > actual numbers on this, but we're certainly not leveraging the users > > we have for this.) > > > > mozilla used to have an active HTML correctness evangelism team, do we > > need a 'media correctness team' to go out to bad (FUD-y?) > > articles/media and show them how great gnome is/or research why they > > didn't like it? > > > > need to hype our user forums more? how did UbuntuCom get such great, > > friendly forum? > > > > how do we make gnome 1337 without compromising our 'core values'? > > (flip side: os/x is not particularly 1337, or not compromised, but > > obviously it gets evangelized- partially because of the > > depth/flexibility- easy for newbies, powerful for experts) > > > > alternately: how do we make gnome more fun? maybe better question than > > making ourselves more 1337? > > > > get a superstar? we as developers need to be more public, more > > unabashed about our endorsements- havoc, miguel? what about kernel > > people? others? > > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 15:37 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > Gnome does not really promote its ease of use. > releases), people's jaws drop, as you saw when you pointed out n-c-b. "jaws drop" - that's absolutly exactly what it was (that person had kicked several hundred pictures he needed for an insurance claim into nirvana without having a backup). > We should be doing more, though I'm not sure how to structure the > website and other materials to do that better. I had a look into apple/osx and believe it is close to perfect. > >Havoc's README that comes > > Which part? The FAQ section. > This is part of why I like the 'heart of the desktop' theme; we get to > take credit for things like gimp, inkscape, etc. I really like the 'heart of the desktop' :) > * work with the Ubuntu folks to make the first truly accessible Linux liveCD What do you mean with "truly accessible"? > * work with the monoppix folks (or others) to make the best mono liveCD In a more general way: target audience developers = developer show case (ide etc.) and some nice examples? Sounds good. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On 5/19/05, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 5/19/05, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Some major flaws in current gnome marketing: > > There are many :) > > > Gnome does not really promote its ease of use. > > We don't very effectively, you're right. When I promote it at LWE > (because usability is practically the /only/ thing I talk about at > conferences or when I sell GNOME in other contexts, like press > releases), people's jaws drop, as you saw when you pointed out n-c-b. > We should be doing more, though I'm not sure how to structure the > website and other materials to do that better. BTW: http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam_2fTalkingPoints is sort of the start of an outline of 'what are the things GNOME should talk about when we talk about GNOME'. Some of this discussion might do well to be recorded there. I'm not sure how to capture it in document form exactly, but I could easily go through that list and prioritize with the following comments: * EaseOfUse - We help users to achieve their goals. [Luis: sold well, people get really excited about that. OS/X and Google help here. And you can talk about it for hours, and beat KDE over the head with it- the list of instances where you can say 'look how complex KDE is, look how simple we are' is very, very long. Honestly, if they ever figure this one out, GNOME loses a lot of our rationale for being around, which would be fine, as we'd have a usable desktop either way.] * ExistingGnomeDeployments [Luis: People care a lot, shows that Real People are using this. Ditto for partners- it is sad, but Novell/Sun/RedHat support matters to people.] * GPL/LGPL (we should compile a list of /PracticalBenefitsOfFreeSoftware) [Luis: no one cares /that/ much, except ISVs who hear LGPL opposed to QT/GPL and are happy. LGPL is likely why we 'won' Eclipse/Adobe, though I don't know that for a fact.] * OpenStandards - no vendor lock-in. [Luis: no one really cares, except in some cases ISVs.] * ReliableReleaseSchedule - we say what we'll do and when we'll do it, and then we do it. [Luis: people are impressed when they hear this, but only certain classes care.] * Localization - We support more languages, and we allow them to support themselves. [Luis: once people are assured it supports their language, they don't care. If they are in a minority language, assuring them that it does or can support their language is very exciting to them.] * BinaryCompatibility between releases - a stable foundation on which to develop applications. [Luis: ISVs care, no one else does.] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On 5/19/05, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 15:37 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > > > Gnome does not really promote its ease of use. > > releases), people's jaws drop, as you saw when you pointed out n-c-b. > "jaws drop" - that's absolutly exactly what it was (that person had > kicked several hundred pictures he needed for an insurance claim into > nirvana without having a backup). > > > We should be doing more, though I'm not sure how to structure the > > website and other materials to do that better. > > I had a look into apple/osx and believe it is close to perfect. > > > >Havoc's README that comes > > > > Which part? > > The FAQ section. > > > > This is part of why I like the 'heart of the desktop' theme; we get to > > take credit for things like gimp, inkscape, etc. > > I really like the 'heart of the desktop' :) It was pointed out to me that it sounds pretty cheesy, which I readily admit to. Alternatives from my thesarus:* + core + center + soul + hub None of those sound particularly appealing to me either, though. Perhaps we have to fall back to 'the desktop of choice'? *gogogadgetAbiword! > > * work with the Ubuntu folks to make the first truly accessible Linux liveCD > > What do you mean with "truly accessible"? Ah. By default, you can't use the liveCDs to demo accessibility technology- many things aren't installed, aren't configured, etc., etc. Some details here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AccessibleHoaryLiveCDDerivative > > * work with the monoppix folks (or others) to make the best mono liveCD > > In a more general way: target audience developers = developer show case > (ide etc.) and some nice examples? Sounds good. Yes. Currently there is a monoppix (good) which defaults to KDE (!!!). We need to fix that; I've talked with them a bit but they aren't really moving actively in my direction. Luis -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On Thu, 19 May 2005 21:15:31 +0200 Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some major flaws in current gnome marketing: > > Gnome does not really promote its ease of use. Havoc's README that > comes with the metacity package simply needs to be polished up into a > press-printable form (shorter, less rant, less technical). I already pointed out a GNOME agenda (a paper on goals) would be useful to attract more developers, and use it as a kind of reference for design decisions. Maybe you could move the README into the wiki so it could be polished? > > KDE embraces Gnome apps where there is no equivalent (gimp,inkscape) > as well as technology (gnome-volume-manager). These apps are often not > perceived as Gnome apps from KDE users. So one just needs to tell > them ;-) With an application that allows configuration of KDE apps, we'd be able to do the same. There was once somebody who wanted to do something alike but he probably stopped his efforts. > > The Gnome website is - what? It exists. But from a marketing point of > view it is not much. The navigation is sub optimal. And the layout is > sub optimal. Some good information is now on gnomefiles but unless you > know what you are looking for it is far from perfect. > I already pointed this out several times. However, the problem is the infrastructure: You don't get many Python hackers for web design, and all PHP hackers have lost interest a long time ago. There's even a sort of official decision not to deploy _any_ web 'application'. You can even find people complaining about the live.gnome.org wiki even on the foundation mailing list, suggesting to use MediaWiki. But since it's PHP, it was probably not even considered in the beginning. I also tried two times to get a gnome application listing site 'accepted' - the first mockup presented roughly two month before gnomefiles started - but all I recieved was a simple 'No, we want something else'. No explanation what they wanted, and no hint what to improve to get your own solution accepted. Right now there's another guy on the web-hackers list trying to solve the problem but I guess it will end in a similar 'decision' to do nothing. One simply looses interest when you get such 'feedback'. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 22:15 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: > Maybe you could move the README into the wiki so it could be polished? Basically it says: * the question whether or not to include a new feature isn't "Why not" but "Why? Is it really necessary to have that?" * instead of giving the user the choice between six options it is better to have directly a reasonable default. * don't bother the user with stuff he doesn't care for * kiss - keep it simple stupid some quotes (keep in mind that's all not intended to be marketing speak): - Boring window manager for the adult in you. Many window managers are like Marshmallow Froot Loops; Metacity is like Cheerios. - Does not expose the concept of "window manager" to the user. Some of the features in the GNOME control panel and other parts of the desktop happen to be implemented in metacity, such as changing your window border theme, or changing your window navigation shortcuts, but the user doesn't need to know this. Q: Will you add my feature? A: If it makes sense to turn on unconditionally, or is genuinely a harmless preference that I would not be embarrassed to put in a simple, uncluttered, user-friendly configuration dialog. If the only rationale for your feature is that other window managers have it, or that you are personally used to it, or something like that, then I will not be impressed. Metacity is firmly in the "choose good defaults" camp rather than the "offer 6 equally broken ways to do it, and let the user pick one" camp. This is part of a "no crackrock" policy, despite some exceptions I'm mildly embarrassed about. For example, multiple workspaces probably constitute crackrock, they confuse most users and really are not that useful if you have a decent tasklist and so on. But I am too used to them to turn them off. Or alternatively iconification/tasklist is crack, and workspaces/pager are good. But having both is certainly a bit wrong. Sloppy focus is probably crackrock too. But don't think unlimited crack is OK just because I slipped up a little. No slippery slope here. Q: Why no XYZ? A: You are probably getting the idea by now - check rationales.txt, query/search bugzilla, and read http://pobox.com/~hp/features.html and http://pobox.com/~hp/free-software-ui.html Then sit down and answer the question for yourself. Is the feature good? What's the rationale for it? Answer "why" not just "why not." Justify in terms of users as a whole, not just users like yourself. How else can you solve the same problem? etc. If that leads you to a strong opinion, then please, post the rationale for discussion to an appropriate bugzilla bug, or to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please don't just "me too!" on bugzilla bugs, please don't think flames will get you anywhere, and please don't repeat rationale that's already been offered. Q: How about adding viewports in addition to workspaces? A: I could conceivably be convinced to use viewports _instead_ of workspaces, though currently I'm not thinking that. But I don't think it makes any sense to have both; it's just confusing. They are functionally equivalent. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 16:10 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > > I really like the 'heart of the desktop' :) Isn't it also a mixed metaphor? -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
Hi, Luis Villa a écrit : On 5/19/05, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Some major flaws in current gnome marketing: There are many :) The major one at this stage is that we are spending lots of time talking about what we want to say, how we want to say it, and who we want to say it to, but we are spending a lot less time actually saying it :) Luis pimping LiveCDs is great, toady distributing over 1000 Ubuntu CDs (I only found out about this yesterday) in his college, to friends, family and colleagues, is amazing as well. We need more of this. The Gnome website is - what? It exists. But from a marketing point of view it is not much. The navigation is sub optimal. And the layout is sub optimal. Some good information is now on gnomefiles but unless you know what you are looking for it is far from perfect. It should be totally redone. Any suggestions on how are welcome. We can at least replace the front page more or less immediately. Reorganising and rewriting content inside the front page will take quite a while - perhaps we can plan to have that done at a certain date, and coincide a rebranding/relaunching of the GNOME brand at the same time? reality is, though, that it is a large task and until we agree on some bigger-picture stuff (like markets, themes, goals, etc.) it is hard to rework the whole thing consistently. Yeah. We need a leader to say "OK, that's our market, let's not talk about it any more". Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: evangelist users- the other key note from LCA marketing BOF
On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 09:36:25AM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: > Yeah. We need a leader to say "OK, that's our market, let's not talk > about it any more". I agree. Less talk, more action. ;) sri -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
