Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 03.07.2012 16:56, Louis Proyect wrote: Samuel Farber – false friend of the Cuban workers REally Louis! Quoting the neo-Stalinist RCG to criticise anybody who is critical of one of the "socialist states" is really reaching for the dregs - whatever you criticisms of Farber! Einde O'Callaghan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == John, The official version of the UMAP camps is this: There was, for obvious reasons, a three-year military service instituted in 1961, a short time before Playa Giron. Cuban society inherited much backwardness on the subject of homosexuality, and, of all the changes that the leadership was trying to persuade people to support, allowing homosexual men into the army and barracks life was, as they perceived it, a very big step for that society. The leadership decided they could not take that step. At the same time, they could not exempt homosexuals from military service, as that would have branded them worse than they already were. At the same time, there were two other groups who did not go to the army - men from some of the stricter denominations of Christianity, and many of the men who had no education past sixth grade and therefore could not use sophisticated technology. These three groups - and homosexuals were by no means the largest - were required to do what in some European countries is called Civilian Service. They were distributed to whereever there was a shortage in the economy, and then lived in camps - good housing was not available in many cases, and factories, some clinics and schools, and campesino housing were prioritized. This system of Civilian Service was in place for seven years, until 1968. During these years, the leadership was informed about individual discriminations against homosexuals who were in the camps. They would institute disciplinary measures. The vulnerable situation that the UMAP systems placed homosexuals in then led, together with other reasons, to the system's termination. Besides the Civilian Service in a war-like situation, the government and its laws did not force anything on homosexuals. The prevailing culture in that society created discriminations and secrecy, and for the government it has been as hard to encourage a change in this culture as it would be to tell people to stop smoking, or to discard santeria as hullaballoo. The scientific way to challenge this version is with evidence. Long impromptu speeches from someone who "hopes to go to Cuba" some time in the future are discarded. All that purism towards the Cuban government, my goodness. There you have one government that has a good general attitude and is open for suggestions, and you throw feces at it. They, too, recognize that food rations, low sugar yields, hard university entrance exams, emigration, jineterismo, the black market, the double currency situation, idiotic tourism, military service, shooting classes in high schools, low internet bandwith, lack of many technologies, the use of diesel, greenhouse gas emissions, and, as everyone knows, a tough situation for homosexuals, are real and large problems. But what are they to learn from you if you have not studied the circumstances of these problems in any significant depth? This is NOT - since you may have that fine word in your mind that terminates all thinking, this is NOT an *apologetics*, as this is a topic which I also have not studied in any significant depth, and I am unprepared to make comments on it. I here only want to urge you to move from the speaker's corner to the library or archive, or to La Habana if you like. In a year or two, I would be most interested in your findings. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/3/2012 10:49 AM, Shane Mage wrote: A "Sovietologist" was, by definition, non-Russian. Sam Farber is a Cuban. Are you? Actually, Sam Farber is a gringo and has been so for decades. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 3, 2012, at 9:28 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: In my view the ISO's affinity for Sam Farber is one of the deeper mysteries of our day. This is the same guy who former British SWP leader John Rees once characterized as a "Sovietologist" in his analysis of the USSR. Do you think he is any better on Cuba? A "Sovietologist" was, by definition, non-Russian. Sam Farber is a Cuban. Are you? Shane Mage "Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Someone attended the ISO conference and had good things to say about it, except for Farber's presentation that he answers here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/barry-lyndon/anti-socialist-propaganda-at-the-isos-socialism-2012-conference/10151003558317902 In my view the ISO's affinity for Sam Farber is one of the deeper mysteries of our day. This is the same guy who former British SWP leader John Rees once characterized as a "Sovietologist" in his analysis of the USSR. Do you think he is any better on Cuba? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Gays were also frequently sent to the UMAP forced labour units. during the Sixties and Seventies. Mike G. El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! From: Louis Proyect To: Mr. Goodman Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/2/12 10:38 PM, John Obrien wrote: > As for this list moderator's previous comment today, that dissidents were not placed in mental ward prisons - > I assume that he was not familiar with Gays and Lesbians, who certainly were > by the Fidel Castro regime. > Other more unfortunates would be placed in horrible prison conditions - this > for decades after > the original infamous round ups and placements in work camps, that resuted > in loss of their freedom, jobs, > friends and family. What is the problem? I addressed myself to a very specific question, namely whether there were Cuban counterparts of General Grigorenko who was put in a mental hospital as punishment for defending the rights of Crimean Tatars. I would appreciate it if people have nothing to say about that, don't drag my name into another thread about homophobia. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/godisamethodist%40yahoo.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/2/12 10:38 PM, John Obrien wrote: > As for this list moderator's previous comment today, that dissidents were not placed in mental ward prisons - I assume that he was not familiar with Gays and Lesbians, who certainly were by the Fidel Castro regime. Other more unfortunates would be placed in horrible prison conditions - this for decades after the original infamous round ups and placements in work camps, that resuted in loss of their freedom, jobs, friends and family. What is the problem? I addressed myself to a very specific question, namely whether there were Cuban counterparts of General Grigorenko who was put in a mental hospital as punishment for defending the rights of Crimean Tatars. I would appreciate it if people have nothing to say about that, don't drag my name into another thread about homophobia. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
njustice only aided the enemies of the Cuban Revolution. The times of Stalinist cover ups and falsifications, are coming to an end. > From: mtom...@hotmail.com > Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 18:49:01 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book > To: causecollec...@msn.com > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > "In the early years of AIDS, persons with that condition were confined in > such institutions. In the Sixties and Seventies, poliotical dissidents were > generally sent to the UMAP forced labour units." > > So, what, we are all going to join the anti-Communist opposition now, or, > just crawl up in a tree afraid that capitalists are bad and socialists are > bad, so, therefore, we just . . .keep capitalism? Even if the Cuban > government and CCP have made serious errors, I'd take that over genocide, > war, and plunder any day. Wannabe Mercutios seem to be at every corner. . . > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/causecollector%40msn.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == "In the early years of AIDS, persons with that condition were confined in such institutions. In the Sixties and Seventies, poliotical dissidents were generally sent to the UMAP forced labour units." So, what, we are all going to join the anti-Communist opposition now, or, just crawl up in a tree afraid that capitalists are bad and socialists are bad, so, therefore, we just . . .keep capitalism? Even if the Cuban government and CCP have made serious errors, I'd take that over genocide, war, and plunder any day. Wannabe Mercutios seem to be at every corner. . . Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/2/12 6:52 PM, John Wesley wrote: In the early years of AIDS, persons with that condition were confined in such institutions. In the Sixties and Seventies, poliotical dissidents were generally sent to the UMAP forced labour units. True. But the charge that dissidents were put into mental hospitals was a lie. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In the early years of AIDS, persons with that condition were confined in such institutions. In the Sixties and Seventies, poliotical dissidents were generally sent to the UMAP forced labour units. MikeG. El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! From: Louis Proyect To: Mr. Goodman Sent: Monday, July 2, 2012 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/2/12 6:00 PM, glparrama...@greenleft.org.au wrote: > > Sam Farber replies to Chris Slee's critical review of his latest book. > Join the discussion at http://links.org.au/node/2934 > > Slee's review can be found at http://links.org.au/node/2911 > I'll bet anybody that Farber won't respond to my comment: Nice to see Farber engage with his critics on the Internet. This is something of a first. I see that he writes: "It is quite clear that by the early to mid-sixties the Cuban leaders had succeeded in establishing a version of the system that ruled in the USSR with a one-party state bureaucracy controlling all of the social, political and economic life of the country without independent trade unions, the right to strike or civil and political liberties." We all know that the USSR used to confine dissidents in psychiatric hospitals, but did Cuba? Farber told an interviewer in New Politics (http://nova.wpunj.edu/newpolitics/issue35/farber35.htm): NP: In the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviets used psychiatric hospitals as a means of clamping down on dissent. SF: There was that in Cuba, too, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s. I have researched this question thoroughly and found no evidence of this. Maybe Farber can back up his claims with the facts. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/godisamethodist%40yahoo.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/2/12 6:00 PM, glparrama...@greenleft.org.au wrote: Sam Farber replies to Chris Slee's critical review of his latest book. Join the discussion at http://links.org.au/node/2934 Slee's review can be found at http://links.org.au/node/2911 I'll bet anybody that Farber won't respond to my comment: Nice to see Farber engage with his critics on the Internet. This is something of a first. I see that he writes: "It is quite clear that by the early to mid-sixties the Cuban leaders had succeeded in establishing a version of the system that ruled in the USSR with a one-party state bureaucracy controlling all of the social, political and economic life of the country without independent trade unions, the right to strike or civil and political liberties." We all know that the USSR used to confine dissidents in psychiatric hospitals, but did Cuba? Farber told an interviewer in New Politics (http://nova.wpunj.edu/newpolitics/issue35/farber35.htm): NP: In the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviets used psychiatric hospitals as a means of clamping down on dissent. SF: There was that in Cuba, too, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s. I have researched this question thoroughly and found no evidence of this. Maybe Farber can back up his claims with the facts. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Farber replies to Links review of his Cuba book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sam Farber replies to Chris Slee's critical review of his latest book. Join the discussion at http://links.org.au/node/2934 Slee's review can be found at http://links.org.au/node/2911 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
