Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == wannabes then On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Michael Smith m...@smithbowen.net wrote: On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 18:05:26 -0700 Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: the high caste screeds of Old Money neocons like Allan Bloom and Roger Kimball I don't get this at all. The individuals mentioned are complete parvenus. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Just to be clear, like a number of people on here I don't go by Marxist, although I respect the tradition. ...your respect of this tradition appears to be quite selective, just to use an euphemism... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah OK, ancient slaveowners and aristocrats didn't have credit cards. Many of these characters were in fact in the camp of the propertied classes and against the popular cause, Plato most notably, who said Democritus should have been killed and his works burned which is why ruling class ideologues love him so much. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 6/2/11 9:05 PM, Tom Cod wrote: Thanks, this one from her site is choice: dialecticians use obscure, non-materialist language invented by ruling-class hacks 2400 years ago to make their theory work Yeah, everybody knows about Anaxagoras and his American Express gold card. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Two books I read as a layperson on Marx that are good and give him his due without being hagiographies: http://www.amazon.com/Karl-Marx-His-Life-Environment/dp/B000O3BL5G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8qid=1307090795sr=8-2 http://www.amazon.com/Finland-Station-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590170334/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1307090951sr=8-1 On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:05 AM, Vladimiro Giacche' md1...@mclink.it wrote: Just to be clear, like a number of people on here I don't go by Marxist, although I respect the tradition. ...your respect of this tradition appears to be quite selective, just to use an euphemism... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well, for those who actually do want a good book *On Dialectic Logic*, I repeat, Ilyenkov's is the best I read. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sent to me by accident rather than the list? Original Message Subject:Books on Dialectical Materialism Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 01:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: sha...@aol.com To: l...@panix.com Some contributors recently commented on available works on dialectical materialism. Works on this subject were available to active Marxists from the twenties onward. Edward Conze, known mostly for his later years as a Buddhist scholar, was the author of Introduction to Dialectical Materialism, a compendium of articles he wrote for Plebs (or it may have been Labour Mounthly) in the early twenties, as well as Scientific Thinking, an Introduction to Dialectical Materialism. August Thalheimer, German Communist and then right oppositionist, wrote Introduction to Dialectical Materialism, a series of lectures given at Sun Yat Sen University in Moscow for the Comintern as a teaching vehicle for Chinese radicals studying there in the twenties. (Both Conze and Thalheimer were ihad associations with the POUM. Conze wrote Spain Today: Revolution and Counter Revolution written before the outbreak of the Civil War, and based in part on Joaquin Maurin's Revolution and Counter Revolution in Spain, which Conze had first intended to translate but then decided to do his own work. Thalheimer's Notes on a Visit to Catalonia being reports sent back to Heinrich Brandler in 1936 and available on the net is an extremely insteresting document). Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The very best book *On Dialectic Materialism I ever read, reread, assigned students, gave as gifts, was Evald Vassilievich Ilyenkov's On Dialectical Materialism. What I can understand that it never fails to astound me other serious Marxists don't, may be attributable to that book. That I don't find it in a quick google gives me a small feeling of vomit rising in my throat as I think of Alexandria and other things once known and/or better understood. I used to think that repressed intellectual advances were inevitably re-discovered. Now I'm not so optimistic* * * * * Subject:Books on Dialectical Materialism Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 01:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: sha...@aol.com To: l...@panix.com Some contributors recently commented on available works on dialectical materialism. Works on this subject were available to active Marxists from the twenties onward. -- *Equitable exchange of different forms of labor time, the **productivity of which develops over time unevenly*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/epilogue.html * inevitably and so creates in time Surplus Labor Time, due to one yet due the other. This is the **Common wealth*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/5originsurpluslaborti.html *; we still see money changers steal, til here and there we read a bill to guarantee us all a **Right to Work*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/8whatistobedone.html * 20 hours a week (1000/year) that earns our **Right to Life*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents.html *, a livable wage pegged to the price of necessities*. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == like obscurantist medieval philosophy? On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com wrote: understood. I used to think that repressed intellectual advances were inevitably re-discovered. Now I'm not so optimistic* * * Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey, wasn't this guy one of the Soviet regime's ideological Three Card Monte men? The Healyites were into this intellectual psychology as well which is designed to convince people to abandon their common sense for some dimly understood dogma that served as theological window dressing for obeisiance to the august and wise leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_card_monte On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: like obscurantist medieval philosophy? On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com wrote: understood. I used to think that repressed intellectual advances were inevitably re-discovered. Now I'm not so optimistic* * * Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 6/2/2011 10:20 AM, Tom Cod wrote: Hey, wasn't this guy one of the Soviet regime's ideological Three Card Monte men? The Healyites were into this intellectual psychology as well which is designed to convince people to abandon their common sense for some dimly understood dogma that served as theological window dressing for obeisiance to the august and wise leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_card_monte This mailing list has been very civil lately and I hope that it remains this way. Let's try to avoid needless acrimony. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The adjective doesn't really apply to philosophy as done in, say, the 13th cent. European universities, aspects of which are enjoying a vogue in present-day academic philosophy. See e.g. Virtue and Politics: Alasdair MacIntyre's Revolutionary Aristotelianism (2011), ed. P. Blackledge K. Knight. On 6/2/11 9:13 AM, Tom Cod wrote: like obscurantist medieval philosophy? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == * I recommend reading Evald Vassilievich Ilyenkov's On Dialectical Materialism. * * * * * Subject:Books on Dialectical Materialism Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 01:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: sha...@aol.com To: l...@panix.com Some contributors recently commented on available works on dialectical materialism. Works on this subject were available to active Marxists from the twenties onward. -- *Equitable exchange of different forms of labor time, the **productivity of which develops over time unevenly*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/epilogue.html * inevitably and so creates in time Surplus Labor Time, due to one yet due the other. This is the **Common wealth*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/5originsurpluslaborti.html *; we still see money changers steal, til here and there we read a bill to guarantee us all a **Right to Work*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/8whatistobedone.html * 20 hours a week (1000/year) that earns our **Right to Life*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents.html *, a livable wage pegged to the price of necessities*. -- *Equitable exchange of different forms of labor time, the **productivity of which develops over time unevenly*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/epilogue.html * inevitably and so creates in time Surplus Labor Time, due to one yet due the other. This is the **Common wealth*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/5originsurpluslaborti.html *; we still see money changers steal, til here and there we read a bill to guarantee us all a **Right to Work*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents/8whatistobedone.html * 20 hours a week (1000/year) that earns our **Right to Life*http://www.peggydobbins.net/dwellingintents.html *, a livable wage pegged to the price of necessities*. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Up to a point. The Workers League always said common sense is the lowest form of formal logic, implying they had way surpassed that or were they cult folks who hadn't even reached that level, members of a schizophrenic group? I could never spar with their Rube Goldberg logic, although my canine intuition told me it was bullshit. Common sense says don't drink Kool-Aid with poison in it, even a dog knows that. A Great Leader with a background in philosophy and the radical left and a confirmed opponent of bourgois ideology who talked all kinds of mumbo jumbo about dialectics, Jesus, and the fascists comin' up the road and all kinds of other shit at all hours of the day and night said different, however, with tragic results Leaving that aside, I don't think common sense is the accumulation of error, nor have I ever intuitively agreed with bashing of empiricism and pragmatism which represents a common approach to deconstructing mysticism. Carl Davidson has had some worthwhile ruminations on this subject recently. Tellingly, self avowed Stalinists are those who most loudly have denounced this heresy. The most important thing is for folks to keep their own counsel and be critical minded and skeptical, in that regard the intuitive rules of thumb of pragmatism et al are most important. Hey, this tool doesn't work . . . hmmm, must not be too good. I had an email exchange with a survivor of the Peoples Temple back in 2008 around the 30th anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy, mentioning I had been in a certain leftist cult group she was actually familiar with, being someone who had emerged out of the radical movement in the Bay Area. How could this have happened? You know full well 'how this could have happened' she responded. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 8:22 AM, David P Á da...@miradoiro.com wrote: Anything that can help people abandon common sense is to be welcome, given how common sense is the accumulation of error. --David. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Edmund Wilson in To the Finland Station does a good job of dismissing dialectics or explaining why it is OK to have that attitude. He sees that as baggage from the whole school of German Philosophy that Marx emerged out of which in turn was rooted in the environment created by counterrevolution and reaction to the Jacobins and the French Revolution and its relatively transparent libertarian ideology, which Germany was in the heartland of then. Thus, even after 1815 the French were never so mired in that stuff, having had huge and recent traditions of revolution to look to. Nonetheless, Wilson was a huge, but not uncritical, admirer of Marx and his ideas, which like most people he came to in his own varied ways, mostly through empirical observation. The idea that he had a schematic playbook where he struggled to connect the shifting dots ideologically is silly, said Wilson. Moreover, to hoist dialecticians on their own petard, he characterizes it as schematic, formalistic and a simple minded shibboleth: thesis, antithesis, synthesis.. . Yeah, OK. Later writers have commented on this stuff as the reification of Marxism, creating a dense theory that can form the ethos and self justification for a layer of intellectuals as high priests needed to interpret this stuff instead of looking to this as a question of the struggle of the working class around its own interests. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == and also touches on the ridiculous attempts of Soviet philosophers to impose this scheme on science which operates through the scientific method not through cherry picking evidence to support some pre-conceived theory, whether dialectics or creationism or anything else. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 15:59:14 -0700 Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com writes: For those interested, Rosa Lichtenstein has an entire website that is devoted to critiquing dialectical materialism. See: http://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk Her essay, Why I oppose dialectical materialism is probably as good a place to start as any. http://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/Why%20I%20Oppose%20DM.htm Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math and also touches on the ridiculous attempts of Soviet philosophers to impose this scheme on science which operates through the scientific method not through cherry picking evidence to support some pre-conceived theory, whether dialectics or creationism or anything else. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/farmelantj%4 0juno.com Groupon#8482 Official Site 1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city#39;s best! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4de819aee53e028e2e2st01vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I am curious to see a short hand short list of what a Marxist who dismisses dialectic materialism lists as Marxist? Marx-isms? Marxistic? Marxisticisms? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Atheist? it's not an ideology, its a political movement and not one about genuflecting before some historical demigod, that's the whole point. That's the social psychology of religion. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com wrote: I am curious to see a short hand short list of what a Marxist who dismisses dialectic materialism lists as Marxist? Marx-isms? Marxistic? Marxisticisms? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Books on Dialectical Materialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Thu, 2 Jun 2011 18:05:26 -0700 Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: the high caste screeds of Old Money neocons like Allan Bloom and Roger Kimball I don't get this at all. The individuals mentioned are complete parvenus. -- -- Michael J. Smith m...@smithbowen.net http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org http://www.cars-suck.org http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
