Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In order to have large crops, one has to adopt pest control methods. Which means killing animals (insects, mostly) in a huge scale. They are small, but their numbers compensate for that. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is a big debate and there are a few conundrums that kick in -- on both sides of the argument. On the question of sustainability I don't think the vegetarians have the answer at all. There is plenty of spin, I grant you...In fact if you look at the ecological consequences of agriculture and compare it to the protocols of sustainable grazing practices (which also encourage a significant carbon sequestration -- more so than industrial agriculture) the perspectives argued by folk like Alan Savory begin to make a lot of ecological sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Savory and this introduction to grassland reality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI is worth watching. The best argument I've read on this is that offered by Simon Fairlie in 'Meat: a Benign Extravagance" http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/2773863502/meat-a-benign-extravagance-book-review where he methodically argues how unsustainable a Vegan --non eating meat -- world would be. Marx even addressed some of these contradictions inherent in wasteful capitalism in 'Capital' ( a feature that John Bellamy Foster teases out in his discussion about...soil under capitalism and...manure.) Manure? Yep that's fertiliser, folks -- got from animals (including us)-- which you need on hand to grow crops on a large scale. Otherwise you have to make it out of inorganic resources and inorganic fertilisers are not soil biomass of environment friendly.inorganic fertiliser, for instance is killing the Great Barrier Reef and feeding the expanding dead zone off the Texas coast. If we don't keep animals -- no organic fertiliser. But would we only keep animals for their poo? Hardly materialist is it to find a use value only in a creature's back end? Nonetheless, the primary role of Veganism and Vegetarianism is ideological. It's a moral response to a brutal world. I'm not saying it's reactionary to not eat meat. as I don't care what people eat/don't eat just as it's pretty irrelevant to history whether folk don't eat pork, or meat on Fridays or abstain from alcohol or any dead animal 7 days per week. But the contemporary rise of the culture of 'not-eating-meat' is primarily an assertion of Philosophical Ethics as Theological ethics has lost so much traction. Good example: Peter Singer -- whose other works, including his generic takes on ethical living, are so often keen to debunk Marx. Indeed, one way of reading Singer is as an alternative POV to Marxism.: personal living morality vs an active engagement with history. [Go read Singer's terrible book on Marx...for an insight into the Utilitarian logic that underlies his ethical anti- meat eating arguments.] While I know many wonderful Marxists are Vegetarians or Vegans ... IF we want to rely on moral or ethical arguments about what we put in our mouths and then extrapolate that more generally into a political argument then there are a few problems with that logic if you want to remain a consistent materialist. In that light this discussion about the convergence between the arguments offered by the anti-abortion movement (and current legislation) in the USA and that of PETA's ethicist narrow pro animal rights paradigm is worth considering. Are pro life lawmakers plagiarising peta? http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/55349797967/are-pro-life-lawmakers-plagiarizing-peta As Bertolt Brecht pointed out there is but one base rule of historical materialism : "First the belly. Then morality" dave riley Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == the psychology of eating meat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q From: Louis Proyect To: Anas Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 5:53 PM Subject: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/12/is-there-anything-truly-sustainable-or-humane-about-eating-meat/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/shackup70%40yahoo.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jul 13, 2013, at 4:03 PM, DW wrote: Tom, I think the broader point the article was trying to make was that *individuals* ought to choose vegetarianism out of the cruelty to animals... The behavior of the ethical omnivore is based on the premise that animals have the right not to be treated cruelly, an entirely defensible proposition of moral philosophy. But the behavior of the absolute vegetarian is based on the premise that animals have the right not to be eaten, a totally indefensible violation of the most basic laws of our great common-cosmic trogoautoegocrat (aka "nature"). Shane Mage "--Now, Hamlet, where's Polonius? --At supper. --At supper? where? --Not where he eats, but where he is eaten. A certain convocation of politic worms are e'en at him. Your worm is your only emperor for diet. We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots." (Act IV, Scene III) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Animals in wild nature die in truly horrible or at least in very painful ways. I feel that if an animal is raised and killed without torture, I see no reason to not eat. As torture I include animals which are smart enough to notice, if given the opportunity, to know they are being raised to be eaten, like Apes. I am not sure about cetaceans in general but I guess they are also that smart . 2013/7/13 DW > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > It would be interesting to poll the list to see how many people have > adopted the vegetarian life style. > > D. > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/danieldiniz%40gmail.com > -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tom, I think the broader point the article was trying to make was that *individuals* ought to choose vegetarianism out of the cruelty to animals plus a few others points. It's a sort of not-to-veiled polemic against Michael Pollan of "Omnivores Dilemma" fame. The militant wing of vegetarians tend to really, really hate Pollen because essentially Pollan argues that eating meat can be sustainable and ok for the ecology if you follow a few simple rules. Generally, don't eat too much of it. What I noticed is that the militant advocates of political vegetarianism tend not to like the broad, grey middle of humanity's use of animals. They want a clear black-and-white Berlin wall of a divide between those that advocate vegetarianism and those that think, falsely in their view, that humans can sustain and consume *some* animal proteins. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have, but not for any moral or political reason: animal proteins are rich in the amino acid leucine. Cancer cells like it. I'm battling recurrent prostate cancer, and I'm doing all I can to starve it. So no meat, fish, nor crustaceans. Mollusc protein, for reasons known only to, well, you know, don't have as much leucine, so I can still enjoy my steamed clams and raw oysters when my budget permits. BTW, cancer cells also like refined sugar, so that's gone from the diet, too. The indicated therapy for my kind of cancer, leuprolide injections, cost about $2,000/shot (three times a year), and I don't have health insurance. So I'm battling it through immune-building supplements and a cancer-fighting diet. I have read a study that showed that eating high-lignan flax meal or flax oil was also effective at fighting cancer, even reducing the tumors in some cases. So I've added three tablespoons a day to my diet. I'm holding my own so far. I have about a year and a half until I'm eligible for Medicare, and then some new options will open up. ~Tom -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+tgbias=verizon@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+tgbias=verizon@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu] On Behalf Of DW Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 10:53 AM To: Tom Bias Subject: [Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat? == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It would be interesting to poll the list to see how many people have adopted the vegetarian life style. D. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tgbias%40verizo n.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It would be interesting to poll the list to see how many people have adopted the vegetarian life style. D. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Is There Anything Truly Sustainable or Humane About Eating Meat? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/12/is-there-anything-truly-sustainable-or-humane-about-eating-meat/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
