Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm not sure when the Guardian was the 'broad left' paper Louis noted. It was in the 1950s the one 'independent' paper allowed by the CP for their members to read. It always floated around the CP miliue for quite some time, even if it was formally independent. Later of course it became the voice of whatever faction or factional alliance around Maoism was running it. But the differences are huge between the WSWS and The Guardian beyond origin and surface politics. Despite the paper being tied to one ex, pro, near, CP movement at any one time or the Maoists later, it tended to focus on and represent in it's own way, the 'movement' that existed at any one time be it the civil rights movement, the anti-vietnam war movement (a wing of it, anyway) and labor fightbacks. And this is true throughout it's entire history. The WSWS does *none* of this. It reports from afar, as outsiders, often, sometimes, from a sectarian perch. The National Guardian/Guardian always reported from within a particular movement. In this sense any future Guardian-like project will have to reflect this. In a way, Green Left Weekly/LINKS does this albeit from a very specific set of politics, the politics of a particular tendency. I think the best approach to a project Louis proposes is *not* to model it on anything but put out some general perspectives, group some like minded supporters willing to work a daily update and see where it evolves. The WSWS as the voice of an ultra-sectarian outfit, the SEP, is interesting because one has to actually look for SEP-building 'stuff'. It's not always obvious to the folks reading the page what exactly it is until you dig deeper. When socialist groups are searched for it is accurate that groups like ISO and the IMT' marxist.com page come up before wsws.org ever does. David Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 6/6/2011 9:03 AM, Sergii Kutnii wrote: Louis, in my opinion you haven't taken into account hidden factors that might have contributed to wsws.org popularity. A good paid SEO campaign may well be an answer. I don't know if they are getting their money's worth since the ISO (thankfully) is listed above them when you do a google search on "socialist". Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis, in my opinion you haven't taken into account hidden factors that might have contributed to wsws.org popularity. A good paid SEO campaign may well be an answer. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == CallMe Ishmael: >>Maybe there would need to be short runs of a print version to be strategically distributed in digitally underserved areas.>> PDFs of leaflets and articles would probably be more practical. They can be hosted on a website and downloaded by activists as needed for printing in short runs for distribution in such areas. Cutting costs makes free distribution a real option. Ed Lewis Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > The opportunity for the left is that publishing is no longer an expensive > proposition, particularly with skilled volunteer labour, and the Marxists > Internet Archive shows what can be done in that department. Agree that this is an opportunity, but two concerns: 1. The digital divide: how do you build a mass working-class readership when access to the Internet remain unequal along class lines? This is one advantage of the old-timey newspaper: it's still a handy way of getting information to people without a computer. Maybe there would need to be short runs of a print version to be strategically distributed in digitally underserved areas. 2. In terms of the online "content," as they say, it would have to be more than text--produce videos and photo essays too. It seems like viral videos and such are shaping up to be the pamphlets of our day. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ed Lewis: "And don't worry Nick, Ben and others, no one except a few even smaller sects on the Australian left wants Green Left's niche. You and others have worked hard for it and are comfortable in it, and it's all yours, so you can relax. " Don't worry Ed, I've never been worried about anything you opine (nor have I expressed any particular worry, or feelings of being relaxed or comfortable, in this discussion, so don't tell me what I think and feel if you don't mind). As a matter of fact, though, the considerable number of non-Socialist Alliance people who write articles for and letters to, and want their events listed in and pay for advertising in GLW seem interested in its "niche". What Australian broad left publications exactly are you comparing GLW unfavourably to in this regard? But you've never let facts facts get in the way of a smug jibe have you Ed? Rather than hackneyed generalities about the web taken over from print and all socialist group being sects, I think a more concrete discussion of how print media, which are not yet redundant, can be used by the as well as electronic media, and how socialist organisation best relates to socialist media today, is more useful. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is a good time to think about digital publishing. Newspapers around the world are going out of business in droves and a few are surviving by going digital. In Australia, even the major dailies are recognising that the the dead-tree business model is uneconomic and are moving into iPad apps, with paywalls just around the corner. To take the News Corporation empire as an example, The Wall Street Journal has developed a model that is being extended worldwide. The media barons are getting excited about a future without massive printing presses, industrial premises and workforces, and paper costs, but they're worried about whether they can make money from it. Staff at the big newspaper publishers are being trained in digital publishing, and Fairfax Media (Sydney Morning Herald, Age, etc) is trying to outsource most of its production. There will still be papers, but in ever declining numbers, and they will be printed on facilities shared or contracted by the various stables. The problem for the media business is how to get people to pay for what's on offer when so much better stuff is free on the web. Why read The Australian's international section on your smartphone when you can get The Guardian, Le Monde or Al Jazeera just as easily? The opportunity for the left is that publishing is no longer an expensive proposition, particularly with skilled volunteer labour, and the Marxists Internet Archive shows what can be done in that department. The WSWS was well ahead of the curve on this, perhaps as a matter of necessity when most of their volunteer paper sellers departed, so it has carved out some space. E-books are another area of massive change. For the left, the Marxists Internet Archive led the way in making a huge number of works available, but e-readers and smartphones open up even more opportunity, and Manybooks will distribute just about anything free. Amazon, I believe, will take on self-published e-books. And don't worry Nick, Ben and others, no one except a few even smaller sects on the Australian left wants Green Left's niche. You and others have worked hard for it and are comfortable in it, and it's all yours, so you can relax. Ed Lewis Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 16:43:01 -0400 Louis Proyect writes: > > On 6/4/11 4:41 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > > > > Don't be surprised if people with long experience as professional > > journalists don't pitch in on this. > > > > That's what happens when you post just after waking up from a nap. I > > meant to say, "Don't be surprised if people with long experience as > > professional journalists pitch in on this." There are probably more than a few would be Chris Hedges types out there among professional journalists who would probably jump at the opportunity to contribute to such a venture. I think it would defeat the purpose of such a venture to have just professional journalists involved, but in addition to contributing their own pieces, they can also help by setting standards for quality writing and editing which can be followed by the nonprofessional journalists who would be essential for this publication to succeed. Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math 2550% Penny Stock Gains? Our last pick exploded 2550% - Join our newsletter for free picks! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4dead0d1af6398241est05vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Furthermore, the publication should include accounts of real life in this economic crisis, because every worker who loses her or his job, every family facing home foreclosure, every returning veteran, every sick person trying to pay medical bills has a name, a face, relationships with friends and family, maybe marriages and romantic relationships. There are things that can't be measured with statistics. There are ways that this economic crisis affects people that have to do with emotions like anger, fear, humiliation, anxiety, rejection; I could continue. There are also things that people are doing to try to survive. In the blog that I was assigned to write for my website development class, I have attempted to express what economic dislocation has meant for me and my family. You can read it at http://thomasbias.wordpress.com. I hope that the proposed publication can connect the economic numbers of this crisis with real people and convey just how terrible it is to endure it. Tom -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+tgbias=ptd@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+tgbias=ptd@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 11:08 AM To: tgb...@ptd.net Subject: Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think that the publication should be seen in a "from below" sense that groups like Solidarity and the ISO advocate. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Manuel: 'hubris we tend to see even on this list (WSWS "has some ok analysis... cries for the need of a publication that can draw a much wider readership and "writership"' I don't think my lack of enthusiasm for the WSWS is hubris. If it wasn't clear I simply meant that whatever good writing is there it's matched by a number of other socialist sites, and I'm not sure why some see the WSWS as particularly brilliant (I'm all for professional-grade design, writing and editing though, and if the post-Healyites have acquired these skills in disproportionate measure through whatever means and despite bat-shit craziness, and maybe I can't separate the online crisp sentences and erudite film reviews from glazed eyed and foam-specked people I've seen in live action, sure, emulate their good socialist journalism). I agree with your broader point, *but* I'd add that the history of left publishing seems to show a tension between broadness and commitment. While a broad radical left publication like the old US Guardian and Tariq Al's efforts in the last 60s and early 70s can flourish in a period of upturn, they seem difficult to sustain otherwise. Green Left, for its part, was set up as a non-party paper in 1991, with non-members on staff and many non-member contributors, supporters and distributors. That was difficult to maintain at the initial level, but the form and the intention is still there, and the reality too to some extent with a broader range of contributors and reprints than many if not most socialist publications. I should have noted before that this broadness is part of GLW's readership and influence - even if Rose and some others on the far left sourly deny the existence of this readership and influence - as well as activist commitment . Many people, not just hardened Bolsheviks or those with experience of such, *expect* a paper to have a line in every article though. Recently GL printed/posted an opinion supporting intervention in Libya, and one comment was along the lines of how dare GL support the blood-soaked imperialists, etc, with an editor patiently responding as often happens that no we don't, but we publish debate and a range of views on the left, etc. So there's a tension there, which GLW has in the main used creatively, though can't resolve, at least until the broader party that the broader paper has always been meant to encourage can come about. This project of course has had its ups and down, to say the least, but the potential is still there, in a better form than the Greens (see, for example, the Tasmanian Greens recent support for a neo-liberal budget, as part of the government there). Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 6/4/11 4:41 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Don't be surprised if people with long experience as professional journalists don't pitch in on this. That's what happens when you post just after waking up from a nap. I meant to say, "Don't be surprised if people with long experience as professional journalists pitch in on this." Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 6/4/11 11:16 AM, Manuel Barrera wrote: > Louis said: "I think that the publication should be seen in a 'from below' sense that groups like Solidarity and the ISO advocate. While there will obviously always be a need for someone like Patrick Cockburn, what I would like to see are reports of the kind that were being filed from Madison during the struggle there by participants, including Youtube clips." So, a bit like the Marxism List (at least the sharing part), but in a publications format? Of course. Over the 13 years of its existence, I have developed close ties to some of the sharpest minds and talented writers that anybody can imagine. There are easily 25 comrades I can think of who could make significant contributions. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis said: "I think that the publication should be seen in a 'from below' sense that groups like Solidarity and the ISO advocate. While there will obviously always be a need for someone like Patrick Cockburn, what I would like to see are reports of the kind that were being filed from Madison during the struggle there by participants, including Youtube clips." So, a bit like the Marxism List (at least the sharing part), but in a publications format? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think that the publication should be seen in a "from below" sense that groups like Solidarity and the ISO advocate. While there will obviously always be a need for someone like Patrick Cockburn, what I would like to see are reports of the kind that were being filed from Madison during the struggle there by participants, including Youtube clips. You don't have to go to Journalism school to know how to do this. In fact if you go to a place like Columbia Journalism School, you will learn how not to do this. In some ways, this was the spirit of what Lenin proposed in 1901: Political and economic exposures gathered from all over Russia would provide mental food for workers of all trades and all stages of development; they would provide material and occasion for talks and readings on the most diverse subjects, which would, in addition, be suggested by hints in the legal press, by talk among the people, and by “shamefaced” government statements. Every outbreak, every demonstration, would be weighed and, discussed in its every aspect in all parts of Russia and would thus stimulate a desire to keep up with, and even surpass, the others (we socialists do not by any means flatly reject all emulation or all “competition”!) and consciously prepare that which at first, as it were, sprang up spontaneously, a desire to take advantage of the favourable conditions in a given district or at a given moment for modifying the plan of attack, etc. At the same time, this revival of local work would obviate that desperate, “convulsive” exertion of all efforts and risking of all forces which every single demonstration or the publication of every single issue of a local newspaper now frequently entails. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nick said: "...while a good and useful left publication doesn't necessarily need an organisation, it does sort of beg the question of one. GLW's online profile, for one, is I'm pretty sure due to its physical activist/street presence. Even just for this reason, I'm not for junking a print version, but rather see a gradual wind down as the better option, and would see even for some years hence the usefulness of printing a weekly broadsheet with say a major article or too and highlights of what's online, to hand out at stalls and events and so on." And Rose said: "I know of no comparable online Marxist news/current affairs source that has the calibre of writers and thinkers needed for a successful non-party project like this." A "good and useful left publication" for a "non-party project" seems like an important tool at present. However, I would hope most of us here would see it as a necessary step toward helping the working masses begin to develop a conscious leadership that promotes conscious, well-educated direction for the class struggle. A left publication only has utility if it serves the masses in action, reporting their struggles, analyzing from the many perspectives we all have, and ultimately detailing what to do next. The sectarians are not sectarian for proposing what should be done. They are sectarian because what they propose obviates the need for the masses to develop our own leadership and instead place their own "program[me]" as the one the masses should adopt. In some respects, some of the hubris we tend to see even on this list (WSWS "has some ok analysis", diatribes about what book on dialectical materialism is best and how some authors have this or that flaw, the tendency for discussion to be dominated by men and usually of Euro-centric origin, among others), cries for the need of a publication that can draw a much wider readership and "writership". A new publication ought to try and draw some of the writers whose articles and papers are often posted here (e.g., Noam Chomsky doesn't really appeal to me, but I would love to see him and other Arab intellectuals provide contrasting viewpoints, A. Roy contrasted with the perspectives of Indian revolutionists, well, you get the picture). Moreover, the "organization" question would still be posed; who would constitute the editorial board of such a publication among other questions? I assume, Louis, that you are thinking of a publication that goes beyond your own Unrepentant Marxist and more directed than the current lists to which we all seem to subscribe. Hence, an organizational structure is still required and, if it is still necessary, why not be proactive and develop a structure that has the future needs of a working class leadership in mind (no, not as "the" future vanguard, but simply that this leadership question is a part of the conceptual framework)? Yes, there is a fine line between a "conceptual framework" for a revolutionary leadership and "vanguardism". However, there are many here too cognizant of these dangers and, in any case, a publication that appeals to the emerging consciousness of the revolutionary movements throughout the world will have its own checks and balances, if, indeed, such a project is to be successful. Hoping this idea does not die. Comradely, Manuel Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Rose: "GLW and equivalent socialist news sources in Australia simply have little to contribute to the education or enlightenment of many engaged leftists and thus remain largely unread and uninfluential after decades of opportunity to become sources of information, ideas and arguments about stuff that people don't already know." Is this based on anything other than your own impressions, or maybe prejudices? In terms of readership, several thousand people still read it on paper each week, and GLW has appeared regularly in the top 10 of the politics and culture category of the Hitwise web rankings of Australian sites a few times, and has topped it. In terms of mainstream recognition as "the" left publication, I just checked the Factiva database, and the string "green left weekly" appears 398 times in Australian news items collated there since 1993. A further 637 items contain the term "green left", which of course could refer to a number of things, but glancing at the first summary page of hits many of these also refer to GLW (e.g. a 1998 letter to The Australian from the the then federal minister of communications: "AFTER reading 'PM turns back to our future' (9/12/97) on the Federal Government's industry statement, I seriously wondered whether the sub-editors had mistakenly replaced a Green Left editorial for the real thing.") The term "world socialist website (or web site)" appears 43 times. More anecdotally, when I taught at a regional university, students would often cite GLW, and the library was happy to take a sub. Not to mention the feedback one gets from thousands of people after staffing stalls for 20 years. WSWS has some OK analyses but you have to wonder how good a contribution a publication makes when the associated political project is barking mad. It's design is probably better then GLW's, if a little too slick and corporate looking for my taste, but GLW is doing a lot better in incorporating multimedia. Good luck to Louis' idea of a broad socialist news site, but while a good and useful left publication doesn't necessarily need an organisation, it does sort of beg the question of one. GLW's online profile, for one, is I'm pretty sure due to its physical activist/street presence. Even just for this reason, I'm not for junking a print version, but rather see a gradual wind down as the better option, and would see even for some years hence the usefulness of printing a weekly broadsheet with say a major article or too and highlights of what's online, to hand out at stalls and events and so on. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Great idea about a daily. I agree about WSWS. I refer to it regularly and have for years, despite the self-reverential sectarian flourish at the end of most posts. I'm often astonished at how very good, and detailed, are its analyses, particularly economic. I know of no comparable online Marxist news/current affairs source that has the calibre of writers and thinkers needed for a successful non-party project like this. I often forward or link to their posts on a range of topics on Australian news and political blogs and email lists. And I use their arguments and facts in debate. GLW and equivalent socialist news sources in Australia simply have little to contribute to the education or enlightenment of many engaged leftists and thus remain largely unread and uninfluential after decades of opportunity to become sources of information, ideas and arguments about stuff that people don't already know. That's to a large extent to do with the fact that the self-imposed intellectual pool from which the socialist sects draw their writers and analyses is so small and narrow and not very skilled. You reap what you sow. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's a shame SW hasn't surpassed WSWS but I think it is fairly clear that the ISO and SEP are qualitatively different kinds of organizations and the dynamic between the 'papers' and the groups reflect that. Ironically, WSWS seems like much more of the 'political center' that Hal Draper longed for than Socialist Worker. It is worth noting that Socialist Worker is an online daily Mon-Thurs and is only published monthly in a paper format. I don't think the physical paper is at all the 'primary' medium anymore - something we've been grappling with since I've been a member - although I do think it is crucial to have at demonstrations, street outreach, and for those who don't sit in front of a computer for most of their day or don't have a smartphone, etc. We do publish "non party-line" comments from members and non-members - see the comments on Slutwalk, Syria, animal rights, etc - fairly often but in the end it is a 'party paper' so the editorials and reporting will reflect that project. I'm working on a longer response to the 'vanguardism' accusations that I find pretty tiring but suffice to say that I think the only 'program' we're selling is revolutionary Marxism and I don't think we have much to gain by trying to be ambiguous about what that means in terms of organizing as socialists or in social movements. While I don't have a problem debating our core principles, I don't think our newspaper is the place to do it nor that they are the most important debates of the day. http://socialistworker.org/where-we-stand Dan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/reflections-on-the-world-socialist-web-site/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
