Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Greg McDonald]

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

>
>> Again, the facts surrounding the altercation seem unclear, thus the
>> defense was able to establish doubt in the minds of the jurors, who, being
>> all white, were obviously inclined to give the defendant the benefit of
>> said doubt.
>>
>
> If a Black had killed a white in similar circumstances, an all-white jury
> would have returned a guilty verdict. This was a similar case:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Bernhard_Goetz
>
> Bernhard Hugo Goetz (born November 7, 1947) shot four young men who he
> said were trying to mug him on a New York City Subway train, resulting in
> his conviction for illegal possession of a firearm. He came to symbolize
> New Yorkers' frustrations with the high crime rates of the 1980s. The
> incident sparked a nationwide debate on race and crime in major cities, and
> the legal limits of self-defense.
>
> The incident occurred on a 2 train in Manhattan on December 22, 1984.
> Goetz fired an unlicensed revolver five times, seriously wounding all four.
> He surrendered to police nine days later and was eventually charged with
> attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms
> offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal
> firearms possession count, for which he served two-thirds of a one-year
> sentence. One of the shot men became a paraplegic as a result of his injury
> and obtained a civil judgement of $43 million against Goetz.
>
> Goetz was dubbed the "Subway Vigilante" by the New York press, and was
> both praised and vilified in the media and in public opinion. The incident
> has been cited as a contributing factor to the groundswell movement against
> urban crime and disorder, and successful National Rifle Association
> campaigns to loosen restrictions on the concealed carrying of firearms.
>
>
>

http://www.organizingupgrade.com/index.php/component/k2/item/996-the-zimmerman-trial-when-the-prosecution-is-the-defense

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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Louis Proyect]

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On 7/14/13 9:23 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:

  Again, the facts surrounding the altercation seem unclear, thus the
defense was able to establish doubt in the minds of the jurors, who, being
all white, were obviously inclined to give the defendant the benefit of
said doubt.


If a Black had killed a white in similar circumstances, an all-white 
jury would have returned a guilty verdict. This was a similar case:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Bernhard Hugo Goetz (born November 7, 1947) shot four young men who he 
said were trying to mug him on a New York City Subway train, resulting 
in his conviction for illegal possession of a firearm. He came to 
symbolize New Yorkers' frustrations with the high crime rates of the 
1980s. The incident sparked a nationwide debate on race and crime in 
major cities, and the legal limits of self-defense.


The incident occurred on a 2 train in Manhattan on December 22, 1984. 
Goetz fired an unlicensed revolver five times, seriously wounding all 
four. He surrendered to police nine days later and was eventually 
charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and 
several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges 
except an illegal firearms possession count, for which he served 
two-thirds of a one-year sentence. One of the shot men became a 
paraplegic as a result of his injury and obtained a civil judgement of 
$43 million against Goetz.


Goetz was dubbed the "Subway Vigilante" by the New York press, and was 
both praised and vilified in the media and in public opinion. The 
incident has been cited as a contributing factor to the groundswell 
movement against urban crime and disorder, and successful National Rifle 
Association campaigns to loosen restrictions on the concealed carrying 
of firearms.




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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Greg McDonald]

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

>
> On 7/14/13 9:12 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:
>
>> The Stand your ground law seems to differ from strict castle doctrine.
>>
>> http://www.ncsl.org/issues-**research/justice/self-defense-**
>> and-stand-your-ground.aspx
>>
>> "Florida’s law states “a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity
>> and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be
>> has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and
>> meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably
>> believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to
>> himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible
>> felony.”
>>
>
> This would make sense only if Trayvon Martin was stalking Zimmerman, not
> the other way around.
>
>
>
>
Stalking is not attacking. The defense obviously established that Zimmerman
may have exercised poor judgement, but he was not engaged in any illegal
activity when he found himself lying on the ground with Martin astride.
 Again, the facts surrounding the altercation seem unclear, thus the
defense was able to establish doubt in the minds of the jurors, who, being
all white, were obviously inclined to give the defendant the benefit of
said doubt.

Greg

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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Louis Proyect]

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On 7/14/13 9:12 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:

The Stand your ground law seems to differ from strict castle doctrine.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/self-defense-and-stand-your-ground.aspx

"Florida’s law states “a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity
and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be
has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and
meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably
believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to
himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible
felony.”


This would make sense only if Trayvon Martin was stalking Zimmerman, not 
the other way around.




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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Greg McDonald]

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

>
> On 7/14/13 8:42 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:
>
>> Well, I agree it was bad judgement on Zimmerman's part to follow Martin,
>> but, strictly speaking, that is not an illegal act. The real issue IS
>> precisely the fact that there was an altercation, that Martin appears to
>> have had the upper hand (good for him), and that Z. felt he was in danger.
>>   Am I missing something here?
>>
>>
> The "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida, which is fucked up to begin with,
> allows you to shoot somebody who has broken into your house. It was never
> intended to provide legal cover for stalking somebody as was the case here.
>
>
>
>
The Stand your ground law seems to differ from strict castle doctrine.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/self-defense-and-stand-your-ground.aspx

"Florida’s law states “a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity
and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be
has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and
meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably
believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to
himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible
felony.”

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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Louis Proyect]

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On 7/14/13 8:42 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:

Well, I agree it was bad judgement on Zimmerman's part to follow Martin,
but, strictly speaking, that is not an illegal act. The real issue IS
precisely the fact that there was an altercation, that Martin appears to
have had the upper hand (good for him), and that Z. felt he was in danger.
  Am I missing something here?



The "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida, which is fucked up to begin 
with, allows you to shoot somebody who has broken into your house. It 
was never intended to provide legal cover for stalking somebody as was 
the case here.




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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Greg McDonald]

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

>
> On 7/14/13 7:00 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:
>
>> "The defense also had one piece of irrefutable evidence, photographs of
>> Mr.
>> Zimmerman’s injuries — a bloody nose along with lumps and two cuts on his
>> head. It indicated that there had been a fight and that Mr. Zimmerman had
>> been harmed, and the defense showed them to the jury at every
>> opportunity."
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/**07/15/us/george-zimmerman-**
>> verdict-trayvon-martin.html?**pagewanted=3&_r=1&nl=**
>> todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_**20130714
>>
>> Looks like the defense successfully established a reasonable doubt.
>>
>
> But the real issue was not whether there was a fight. It was whether
> Zimmerman stalked Trayvon Martin. The cops told him to stay in his car. A
> neighborhood watch is exactly that, people volunteering to keep an eye on
> "suspicious" individuals. To start with, being Black in this gated housing
> complex was tantamount to being suspicious. But even with that being the
> case. All Zimmerman was entitled to do was monitor his activity. This is
> useful background on Sanford, Florida:
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/**2012/04/01/1079682/-Sanford-**
> Florida-s-Troubled-History-of-**Racial-Injustice-Prejudice
>
> Well, I agree it was bad judgement on Zimmerman's part to follow Martin,
but, strictly speaking, that is not an illegal act. The real issue IS
precisely the fact that there was an altercation, that Martin appears to
have had the upper hand (good for him), and that Z. felt he was in danger.
 Am I missing something here?

Greg

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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Louis Proyect]

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On 7/14/13 7:00 AM, Greg McDonald wrote:

"The defense also had one piece of irrefutable evidence, photographs of Mr.
Zimmerman’s injuries — a bloody nose along with lumps and two cuts on his
head. It indicated that there had been a fight and that Mr. Zimmerman had
been harmed, and the defense showed them to the jury at every opportunity."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us/george-zimmerman-verdict-trayvon-martin.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130714

Looks like the defense successfully established a reasonable doubt.


But the real issue was not whether there was a fight. It was whether 
Zimmerman stalked Trayvon Martin. The cops told him to stay in his car. 
A neighborhood watch is exactly that, people volunteering to keep an eye 
on "suspicious" individuals. To start with, being Black in this gated 
housing complex was tantamount to being suspicious. But even with that 
being the case. All Zimmerman was entitled to do was monitor his 
activity. This is useful background on Sanford, Florida:


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/01/1079682/-Sanford-Florida-s-Troubled-History-of-Racial-Injustice-Prejudice 





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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Greg McDonald]

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 6:30 AM, Greg McDonald  wrote:

>
> To wit:
>

"The defense also had one piece of irrefutable evidence, photographs of Mr.
Zimmerman’s injuries — a bloody nose along with lumps and two cuts on his
head. It indicated that there had been a fight and that Mr. Zimmerman had
been harmed, and the defense showed them to the jury at every opportunity."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us/george-zimmerman-verdict-trayvon-martin.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130714

Looks like the defense successfully established a reasonable doubt.

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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Greg McDonald]

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 6:22 AM, Mark Lause  wrote:

>
>
> You could almost see this one coming, though.
>
> And yet, people sat politely and deferntially glued to their TV sets rather
> than being up and doing BEFORE it got to this point.
>
>
I did not follow the trial at all but judging from some of the comments, it
seems there was some controversy over whether or not Martin was banging
Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. I saw video footage of Zimmerman
exiting the patrol car at the station and it appeared he was not beat up at
all, but somehow, this message seems to have gotten through and resonated
with both the jury and the folks commenting on the verdict. How could the
prosecution be so lame, unless someone stands to be getting a promotion?
Maybe the trial was thrown?

Greg

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Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Mark Lause]

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You could almost see this one coming, though.

And yet, people sat politely and deferntially glued to their TV sets rather
than being up and doing BEFORE it got to this point.

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[Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty

[Adam Turl]

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The verdict was delivered by six jurors--with not a single Black member
among them, nor the four alternates, even though Sanford is nearly 30
percent African American. But an entire system--racist through and
through--failed the test of bringing some measure of justice for Trayvon
Martin and his family: police, prosecutors, state officials and
officeholders, judges, the media, and on and on.
http://socialistworker.org/2013/07/14/a-racist-killer-is-acquitted

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