Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 6:30 AM, Greg McDonald gregm...@gmail.com wrote: To wit: The defense also had one piece of irrefutable evidence, photographs of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries — a bloody nose along with lumps and two cuts on his head. It indicated that there had been a fight and that Mr. Zimmerman had been harmed, and the defense showed them to the jury at every opportunity. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us/george-zimmerman-verdict-trayvon-martin.html?pagewanted=3_r=1nl=todaysheadlinesemc=edit_th_20130714 Looks like the defense successfully established a reasonable doubt. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/14/13 7:00 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: The defense also had one piece of irrefutable evidence, photographs of Mr. Zimmerman’s injuries — a bloody nose along with lumps and two cuts on his head. It indicated that there had been a fight and that Mr. Zimmerman had been harmed, and the defense showed them to the jury at every opportunity. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us/george-zimmerman-verdict-trayvon-martin.html?pagewanted=3_r=1nl=todaysheadlinesemc=edit_th_20130714 Looks like the defense successfully established a reasonable doubt. But the real issue was not whether there was a fight. It was whether Zimmerman stalked Trayvon Martin. The cops told him to stay in his car. A neighborhood watch is exactly that, people volunteering to keep an eye on suspicious individuals. To start with, being Black in this gated housing complex was tantamount to being suspicious. But even with that being the case. All Zimmerman was entitled to do was monitor his activity. This is useful background on Sanford, Florida: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/01/1079682/-Sanford-Florida-s-Troubled-History-of-Racial-Injustice-Prejudice Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/14/13 8:42 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: Well, I agree it was bad judgement on Zimmerman's part to follow Martin, but, strictly speaking, that is not an illegal act. The real issue IS precisely the fact that there was an altercation, that Martin appears to have had the upper hand (good for him), and that Z. felt he was in danger. Am I missing something here? The Stand Your Ground law in Florida, which is fucked up to begin with, allows you to shoot somebody who has broken into your house. It was never intended to provide legal cover for stalking somebody as was the case here. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/13 8:42 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: Well, I agree it was bad judgement on Zimmerman's part to follow Martin, but, strictly speaking, that is not an illegal act. The real issue IS precisely the fact that there was an altercation, that Martin appears to have had the upper hand (good for him), and that Z. felt he was in danger. Am I missing something here? The Stand Your Ground law in Florida, which is fucked up to begin with, allows you to shoot somebody who has broken into your house. It was never intended to provide legal cover for stalking somebody as was the case here. The Stand your ground law seems to differ from strict castle doctrine. http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/self-defense-and-stand-your-ground.aspx Florida’s law states “a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/14/13 9:12 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: The Stand your ground law seems to differ from strict castle doctrine. http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/self-defense-and-stand-your-ground.aspx Florida’s law states “a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” This would make sense only if Trayvon Martin was stalking Zimmerman, not the other way around. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/13 9:12 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: The Stand your ground law seems to differ from strict castle doctrine. http://www.ncsl.org/issues-**research/justice/self-defense-** and-stand-your-ground.aspxhttp://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/self-defense-and-stand-your-ground.aspx Florida’s law states “a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” This would make sense only if Trayvon Martin was stalking Zimmerman, not the other way around. Stalking is not attacking. The defense obviously established that Zimmerman may have exercised poor judgement, but he was not engaged in any illegal activity when he found himself lying on the ground with Martin astride. Again, the facts surrounding the altercation seem unclear, thus the defense was able to establish doubt in the minds of the jurors, who, being all white, were obviously inclined to give the defendant the benefit of said doubt. Greg Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/14/13 9:23 AM, Greg McDonald wrote: Again, the facts surrounding the altercation seem unclear, thus the defense was able to establish doubt in the minds of the jurors, who, being all white, were obviously inclined to give the defendant the benefit of said doubt. If a Black had killed a white in similar circumstances, an all-white jury would have returned a guilty verdict. This was a similar case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz Bernhard Hugo Goetz (born November 7, 1947) shot four young men who he said were trying to mug him on a New York City Subway train, resulting in his conviction for illegal possession of a firearm. He came to symbolize New Yorkers' frustrations with the high crime rates of the 1980s. The incident sparked a nationwide debate on race and crime in major cities, and the legal limits of self-defense. The incident occurred on a 2 train in Manhattan on December 22, 1984. Goetz fired an unlicensed revolver five times, seriously wounding all four. He surrendered to police nine days later and was eventually charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count, for which he served two-thirds of a one-year sentence. One of the shot men became a paraplegic as a result of his injury and obtained a civil judgement of $43 million against Goetz. Goetz was dubbed the Subway Vigilante by the New York press, and was both praised and vilified in the media and in public opinion. The incident has been cited as a contributing factor to the groundswell movement against urban crime and disorder, and successful National Rifle Association campaigns to loosen restrictions on the concealed carrying of firearms. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Zimmerman found not guilty
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: Again, the facts surrounding the altercation seem unclear, thus the defense was able to establish doubt in the minds of the jurors, who, being all white, were obviously inclined to give the defendant the benefit of said doubt. If a Black had killed a white in similar circumstances, an all-white jury would have returned a guilty verdict. This was a similar case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Bernhard_Goetzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz Bernhard Hugo Goetz (born November 7, 1947) shot four young men who he said were trying to mug him on a New York City Subway train, resulting in his conviction for illegal possession of a firearm. He came to symbolize New Yorkers' frustrations with the high crime rates of the 1980s. The incident sparked a nationwide debate on race and crime in major cities, and the legal limits of self-defense. The incident occurred on a 2 train in Manhattan on December 22, 1984. Goetz fired an unlicensed revolver five times, seriously wounding all four. He surrendered to police nine days later and was eventually charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count, for which he served two-thirds of a one-year sentence. One of the shot men became a paraplegic as a result of his injury and obtained a civil judgement of $43 million against Goetz. Goetz was dubbed the Subway Vigilante by the New York press, and was both praised and vilified in the media and in public opinion. The incident has been cited as a contributing factor to the groundswell movement against urban crime and disorder, and successful National Rifle Association campaigns to loosen restrictions on the concealed carrying of firearms. http://www.organizingupgrade.com/index.php/component/k2/item/996-the-zimmerman-trial-when-the-prosecution-is-the-defense Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
