date:20140708

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This also looks useful in the way of a more detailed explanation:

http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/marx/section3.rhtml

Although I would add that not all labor time is created equal. 1 hour of
a Linux SysAdmin is more valuable than 1 hour as a ditch digger because
more labor went into producing the Linux guy.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Questions about socialism and value theory | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

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>From Wikipedia (because I can find it quick):

The labor theories of value (LTV) are heterodox economic theories of
value that argue the value of a commodity is only related to the
labor needed to produce or obtain that commodity and not to other
factors of production (except as those elements can be regarded as
embodied labour.)


Note that unless you think commodities exist only under capitalism,
there is nothing system specific in this definition. Once the cotton is
reduced to a commodity, it doesn't matter whether it was produced by
slaves in ancient Egypt, slaves in the US South, or wag workers with
modern equipment, LTV or more properly SNLTV (socially necessary labor
theory of value) still applies.


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at theLinux Beach  



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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Questions about socialism and value theory | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

2014-07-08 Thread John Lane via Marxism

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On Jul 8,2014 7:01 PM,"Clay Claiborne via Marxism" <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>This is the real beauty of the labor theory of value. It reveals labor as
the >source of all creation. The math on this doesn't care whether it is a
slave >system or socialism.

I don't understand this, based on my experience with Marxian analysis.
Isn't a major part of Marx's economic work tied into his theory of history;
namely that a particular theory of value corresponds to a particular set of
productive forces at a particular time in history? I am currently working
my way through "Towards a new socialism" by Cockshott and Cottrell
(recommended by Louis via his blog post being discussed here) which
reccomends using the LTV under socialism, but I don't see how the same
theory is applicable under a slave labour system.

On Jul 8, 2014 7:01 PM, "Clay Claiborne via Marxism" <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> On 07/08/2014 01:45 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> > Q: “How would a socialist system account for jobs that don’t occur on
> > property? Or small businesses that adhere to the service industry
> > where minuscule amounts of profit comes from labor time as opposed to
> > capital investment? i.e., I get paid $22 per hour / 89.50 labor rate.
> > 60 otherwise goes overhead. And I sell the parts my boss invests in
> > with his capital.”
> I find Marx's labor theory of value to be a very sound economic
> principle that is system agnostic - it applies equally well to socialism
> and capitalism. Briefly, I understand it as follow 1) All exchange or
> use value is the product of human labor. 2) Exchange value is determined
> by the socially necessary labor required for its production.
>
> In the example above, the worker is paid $22/hr. What determines the
> value of his labor? It is the socially necessary labor required to
> product (or reproduce) the worker. This includes his up bringing and
> education to get him to the point were he can do the job. It also
> includes what is required to sustain him on the job and raise a family
> (reproduce the laborer). Is he paid at the value of his labor? Depends,
> could be more or less. And depends on many factors but as with all
> prices will tend to center on value. Say $22.00/hr covers all those
> costs of labor, but if the value the product of his labor isn't worth
> $90/hr his employer will soon run out of work for him. The difference
> between the value needed to produce the worker and the value in turn
> produced by the worker is the source of all surplus value and profit.
> The $68 dollar difference in this example divides between the owners
> overhead and his profit. When he sells parts, he is adding value [by
> making them locally available, incorporating in a repair. etc.] to items
> which are the product of other worker's labor and so it value.
>
> This is the real beauty of the labor theory of value. It reveals labor
> as the source of all creation. The math on this doesn't care whether it
> is a slave system or socialism.
>
> > /Q: Hello, I'm getting ready for a debate on Marxism and my opponent
> > has in the past pointed out that value is in fact subjective. I may
> > value a pot at $100 yet he may value it at $50. If it is true that
> > Labor determines the value of this pot, how do I argue against the
> > Subjective Theory of Value?/
> Subjective "value" is neither exchange value or use value, which the
> owner of a pot he "values" at $100 will quickly find out if the market
> thinks it is only worth $50.00. [ the socially necessary labor to
> produce the pot]
>
> Since I'm running out of time here, i will make this last point brief,
> but it is extremely important - the value I'm speaking of here is what
> is socially necessary given a certain level of technology and other
> concrete condition of production. i.e., you can't increase the value of
> your work product by working slower.
> "socially necessary" should prefix every reference to exchange value
> above even when I short-cut it.
>
> In the case of a high price command by " a well-established abstract
> artist,"  we should consider not only all that has gone into creating
> this artist, but all the "socially necessary" labor that went into
> producing all the artists that are still starving. Same in other areas -
> a lucky prospector find a huge nugget his first day on the job - but how
> many man-hours were spent panning by the unlucky ones - all their labor
> may at first glance appear worthless but it was socially necessary so
> that the occasion gem can be p

Re: [Marxism] Founding Congress of Stalin Society of North America Held In the USA

2014-07-08 Thread Jesse Lemisch via Marxism


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Well, but I don't think Tom Hayden got his "two, three, many" phrasing that 
way, but maybe it was in the air.Who else used it?


Jesse Lemisch 



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Re: [Marxism] Netanyahu suppressed info to create a bloodlust

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On 07/08/2014 05:04 PM, Gary MacLennan via Marxism wrote:
> the Angry Arab has
> published the photographs of the destruction caused and he rightly points
> out that the victims will receive no favorable coverage in the NYT. 
I'll bet they receive much more favorable coverage than Syria's victims.
I haven't read the NYT today, but I just finish watching France24,
BBCNews & CBSNews, each reported that 20 Palestinians were killed by
Israeli air strikes today. Nobody mentioned Assad's victims in Syria.
VDC has already put that at 21 for today, but I doubt that will be the
final total because for the week  29th June - 5th July for which they
have complete info, they show the following daily tolls 73 - 64 -46 -77
-93 -75 - 72.

The short story is that the slaughter of Syrians has become so regular
and so accepted by the West that they almost never report on it.

Worst still, the "Left" never protests it. Why doesn't the Angry Arab
get angry about that?






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Re: [Marxism] Founding Congress of Stalin Society of North America Held In the USA

2014-07-08 Thread T via Marxism

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"One, two, three, many" is a traditional method of counting appropriate for a 
Stalin society.

T


-Original Message-
>From: Mark Lause via Marxism 
>Sent: Jul 8, 2014 8:15 PM
>To: Thomas F Barton 
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Founding Congress of Stalin Society of North America 
>Held In the USA
>
>==
>Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>==
>
>
>". . . attended by about a dozen people, including many young people."
>This must be some revolutionary new meaning of "many."
>
>Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
>Set your options at: 
>http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net


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Re: [Marxism] Founding Congress of Stalin Society of North America Held In the USA

2014-07-08 Thread Charles Faulkner via Marxism

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lol. i was thinking the same thing. 

- Original Message -

From: "Serve, Marxism"  
To: "Faulkner, Charles"  
Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2014 5:15:02 PM 
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Founding Congress of Stalin Society of North America 
Held In the USA 

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". . . attended by about a dozen people, including many young people." 
This must be some revolutionary new meaning of "many." 
 
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Re: [Marxism] Founding Congress of Stalin Society of North America Held In the USA

2014-07-08 Thread Mark Lause via Marxism

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". . . attended by about a dozen people, including many young people."
This must be some revolutionary new meaning of "many."

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Re: [Marxism] Netanyahu suppressed info to create a bloodlust

2014-07-08 Thread Andrew Pollack via Marxism

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Excellent points, Gary. Below is a google translation of the concluding
section of a great statement by revolutionary Syrians who share, and are
still acting on, your correct belief that the Arab Revolution could and
should receive widespread regional support.

Part of the problem was that the Palestinian "leadership" -- including the
supposed (Stalinist) left -- hadn't a clue how to facilitate that
broadening of support, including because they either supported the
counterrevolution in the form of Assad and Qaddafi, or, in the case of
Egypt, the Palestinian "left" just didn't have the basic class politics to
see who they should be reaching out to.

But there are newer elements throughout the region working to rectify that.

Andy

from Syria Freedom  Forever:

"We reiterate our solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggle
for self determination and emancipation against the Zionist state. We also
call for full support for the BDS campaign continued to experience success,
including the divestiture of several million dollars by the Bill Gates
Foundation, the Presbyterian Church and Methodist U.S. companies profiting
from the Israeli occupation, whose company G4S security and Hewlett Packard.

At the same time, these events remind us that the only real solution to the
Palestinian question and the Jewish question is the destruction of the
colonial state, apartheid and occupation of Israel, which has never brought
security in Israel and elsewhere, on the contrary Jewish population, and
the establishment of a democratic, social and secular state in historic
Palestine for 1948 (Israelis and Palestinians) without any form of
discrimination in which any Palestinian, whether refugee or internal
refugee in foreign countries, has the right to return to their lands and
original house which they were forcibly displaced in 1948, 1967 and after.

And of course, in the same context, it is also necessary to reverse all
authoritarian regimes in the region who are complicit in the suffering of
the Palestinian people.

Cheers Free Palestine"

http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/palestine-ou-la-resistance-continue/

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Gary MacLennan via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> This is a very illuminating and informative article.
>
> I have longed believed that Israel is dependent on the Egyptian leadership.
>  Following the fall of Mubarak, I hoped that the Palestinian cause would
> receive widespread support in Egypt and throughout the Arab world.
>
> The Palestinian cause was popular throughout the Arab Spring. The Muslim
> Brotherhood government, while more supportive of Hamas, still tried to
> maintain links with the American camp, and that was the beginning of the
> cour-revolution.
>
> Now with the advent of Sisi and the Egyptian military as Egypt's rulers, it
> is once more business as usual for the Israelis.  As could be expected the
> Gaza strip is under attack again. Because he has an ally back in power in
> Egypt,  Netanyahu can play hard ball and sabotage the two state solution.
>
> He can also launch an attack on the Gaza strip. the Angry Arab has
> published the photographs of the destruction caused and he rightly points
> out that the victims will receive no favorable coverage in the NYT.  So yet
> again the limits of what we are allowed to see have been reinforced.
>
> Netanyahu is calling Obama's bluff. Needless to say, President "Yes we
> can", won't do anything, and once again it is down to the Arab revolution.
> It has been derailed, but none of the problems that gave rise to the
> revolts have been solved.
>
> comradely
>
> Gary
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> > ==
> > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > ==
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://electronicintifada.net/content/netanyahu-government-knew-teens-were-dead-it-whipped-racist-frenzy/13533?utm_source=EI+readers&utm_campaign=e73df1d0d5-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-e73df1d0d5-290662377
> > 
> > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
> > Set your options at:
> > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.

Re: [Marxism] Netanyahu suppressed info to create a bloodlust

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This is a very illuminating and informative article.

I have longed believed that Israel is dependent on the Egyptian leadership.
 Following the fall of Mubarak, I hoped that the Palestinian cause would
receive widespread support in Egypt and throughout the Arab world.

The Palestinian cause was popular throughout the Arab Spring. The Muslim
Brotherhood government, while more supportive of Hamas, still tried to
maintain links with the American camp, and that was the beginning of the
cour-revolution.

Now with the advent of Sisi and the Egyptian military as Egypt's rulers, it
is once more business as usual for the Israelis.  As could be expected the
Gaza strip is under attack again. Because he has an ally back in power in
Egypt,  Netanyahu can play hard ball and sabotage the two state solution.

He can also launch an attack on the Gaza strip. the Angry Arab has
published the photographs of the destruction caused and he rightly points
out that the victims will receive no favorable coverage in the NYT.  So yet
again the limits of what we are allowed to see have been reinforced.

Netanyahu is calling Obama's bluff. Needless to say, President "Yes we
can", won't do anything, and once again it is down to the Arab revolution.
It has been derailed, but none of the problems that gave rise to the
revolts have been solved.

comradely

Gary

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
>
> http://electronicintifada.net/content/netanyahu-government-knew-teens-were-dead-it-whipped-racist-frenzy/13533?utm_source=EI+readers&utm_campaign=e73df1d0d5-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-e73df1d0d5-290662377
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
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>

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Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?

2014-07-08 Thread Ratbag Media via Marxism

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Gary, you're so right:"The Greens were faced with an open goal after the
budget, and they should have called the Labor Party's bluff, and forced
them to be the only ones to pass the supply bills."

If the Greens had done that -- and identified so strongly with the rest of
us -- they would have been made electorally  and their '3rd Party' fortunes
would have been guaranteed. So I reckon we just had a 'moment' in
Australian politics that will still be played out over the next few years.
IF the Greens had rejected the budget in toto there would have been a major
shift in the groundswell but instead they sided with the bosses.

As the front office spin goes:"The Greens are the only party to be powered
from the bottom-up, engaging members and supporters every step of the way.
We have the courage to stand with you to create a more caring society..."
It looks a tad hallow at the moment, even hypocritical.

The other element in the mix is a discernable  shift within some trade
unions. It isn't huge  -- not yet anyway --  but its' clear that the ranks
are a bit cheesed off that many of their officials have been mum over the
budget and have merely channeled  Bill Shorten's platitudes.At last
weekends rally here in Brisbane there was a flagged trade union presence --
esp ETU, MUA, CPSU and NTEU. And what was really interesting was that this
recent platform was way to the left of the one last time and the attendees'
responses were absolutely in sync with it.

Talk about hanging on every word!

There was no organised Greens presence either -- unlike last time.

The anger  is very tangible...and my reading is that folk are in a sort
of campaign mode as they realize that one-off rallies are insufficient to
the task before us. Maybe we had advantages here in Brisbane in terms of
the coalition that's leading this, but we know that the 2003 Iraq
protest syndrome haunts the movements -- the one-off thing followed by
abatement. The complication this time around is that we
aren't confronted with an offshore issue -- but a massive change to our
collective every day lives and the future both of ourselves and of our
 children. Its' even a bit more than a 'hip pocket' response as the budget
brutality seeds so much of our existence.

And having just recently ridded the chambers in most states of the ALP
calling those dogs back isn't really cause for excitement --neither
nationally nor in any state like Queensland.

So folk are facing a conundrum...at the same time as the chronic cynicism
and anti-politics attitudes pervades the population, the community has to
deal with the complication  of 'what is to be done?'  if we can't rely to
the pollies to do itYes: not even the Greens!

Of course in the sweep of things -- the neoliberal arc stretching back to
Hawke and Keating,back 30 years,  herein we have a bit of a fight back mood
that not only threatens the Laborist consensus but maybe the Greens carte
blanche. How that plays out is sure to be interesting. What potential is
there for industrial action? What campaign forms will be engineered? What
sectors will sign up to activity? How much leeway has Labor (or the Greens
for that matter) got to sabotage a more radical edge to this and an extra-
parliamentary dynamic?

Of course, any motion around this undermines the racism embedding in the
refugee push...which is a kingpin of the federal government ideological
credibility.The racism   Labor and LNP helped create may not be sufficient
to prop  them up among what should have been loyal sectors of
the population. But I expect we'll get a lot more of the asylum boat
shebang in Howard style mode.

dave riley

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Re: [Marxism] Stalin on the national question?

2014-07-08 Thread ioannis aposperites via Marxism

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> http://links.org.au/node/164
> 
> The Leninist theory was set out most clearly in Stalin's 1913 work
> Marxism and the National Question.


Although it is not a surprise that Lenin faced with numerous national
questions after 1917 did not refer to that Stalin's "work", reading the
above assertion in "a journal that rejects the Stalinist distortion of
the socialist project"  i can not but remember with joy the vitriolic
Trotsky's article "Hands Off Rosa Luxemburg"(1932)
(http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1932/06/luxemberg.htm)

"which identifies not a nation, but Stalin's "c o n g e n i t a l  i
g n o r a n c e", with its objective material conditions of formation
and existence":

"The Stalinist falsifications are conscious insofar as they are dictated
at each given moment by entirely concrete personal interests. At the
same time they are semi-conscious, insofar as his congenital ignorance
places no impediments whatsoever to his theoretical propensities." Leon
Trotsky "Hands Off Rosa Luxemburg"(1932)

J.A.


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Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?

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Well Dave as you know *I was *in the business of denigrating the Queensland
Greens when under Drew Hutton's leadership they helped to bring down a
Labor government.

I cannot fault your analysis.  The Greens were faced with an open goal
after the budget, and they should have called the Labor Party's bluff, and
forced them to be the only ones to pass the supply bills.

The legacy of former Greens leader, Dr Bob Brown, who was adept at picking
the issues to appear Left wing, while never really threatening the status
quo, is still with us.  Milne is much less skillful.

Still all things considered it is electoral death to vote for the petrol
rise and the co-payment for visiting a doctor. That attacks on pensioners
and students can be added to that mix.

Even someone, as stupid as Milne is, will have this pointed out to her.
 The ALP will also be forced to block some of the budget measures.  All
that means the battle around the cuts is far from lost. Opposition outside
parliament will demand opposition inside parliament and in turn that will
spur on opposition outside.  That is the dialectic as I see it in this
conjuncture.  Shorten, the Labor leader, has clearly signaled to the ruling
class that he wants to be "responsible" and not oppositional.  Yet if he
messes up his timing here, tensions will arise even inside the ALP.

Also, we should bear in mind there will be three state elections and a
territory election within the next 12 months.  Overall the political
climate is heating up. precisely because the government has failed to
secure hegemony around their austerity project.

comradely

Gary

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Ratbag Media via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> I'm not in the business of denigrating the Greens. I think Gary is right
> that our Greens are  not  a neo-liberal project in the sense that the LNP
> and the ALP definitely are.
>
> But that said, what's the likely strength  of this  "left around Greenland
> and Bandt" ? Esp given that on the major disputes it has rolled over for
> the sake of consensus...and chooses to ignore spectral pragmatism of the
> Tasmanian option.
>
> The recent NSW members meeting organised to discuss the Milne refusal to
> block the Abbott budget
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-greens-branded-awesomely-stupid-over-moves-to-block-supply-20140606-39ojp.html
> suggests that the momentum is not strong given that the core budget issue
> was a biggy when this fuel tax debate is really just fallout
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-in-turmoil-as-grassroots-members-push-for-new-fuel-tax-backflip-20140702-3b8tn.html
>
> But the consequence is that the Greens have lost traction on the left
> because -- as Andrew Wilkie has bluntly said, ""Labor and the Greens have
> been huffing and puffing against the budget but when it came to the crunch
> and an opportunity to put words into actions, they sided with the
> government."
> https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56744
>
> That's absolutely true. -- and people KNOW it. Even Greens members.
>
> This isn't a " longed for opening to the Left '..not yet, anyway.But it
> does suggest that there is motion to the left of the Greens that is
> unwilling to be drawn into their electoralist framework...and , in a sense,
> they've lost their carte blanche. Indeed if it wasn't for their steady
> state hold on the refugee issue their credibility would be much less at the
> moment.
>
> But with over  10,000 members  the 'Greens' aren't something to ignore or
> dismiss:
> "Membership figures for the Greens, seen by *The Age*, show that the party
> grew from 1538 members in 1998-99 to 10,429 in 2009-10. The party's
> membership is dwarfed by Labor, which says it had 37,500 members in
> 2009-10, but the ALP's membership is in decline, especially since its most
> recent peak, around the time of Kevin Rudd's election, when there were just
> under 50,000 members."
>
> http://www.theage.com.au/national/greens-membership-tops-1-as-labor-feels-the-heat-20110221-1b2i3.html#ixzz36s17T794
>
> ..and many people turn to the Greens as
> their initial political engagement beyond the main parties. And as Rudolf
> Bahro said, 'The Greens are the last hesitation to socialism." --and even
> with all this neo-liberal pressure I think thats;' still absolutely true.
>
> Ultimately, the Greens' core conundrum is strategic. How do they
> move forward and impact on Australian politics?  While we may know the
> answer to that , the tactical reality hasn't registered more generally.
>

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Questions about socialism and value theory | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

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On 07/08/2014 01:45 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> Q: “How would a socialist system account for jobs that don’t occur on
> property? Or small businesses that adhere to the service industry
> where minuscule amounts of profit comes from labor time as opposed to
> capital investment? i.e., I get paid $22 per hour / 89.50 labor rate.
> 60 otherwise goes overhead. And I sell the parts my boss invests in
> with his capital.”
I find Marx's labor theory of value to be a very sound economic
principle that is system agnostic - it applies equally well to socialism
and capitalism. Briefly, I understand it as follow 1) All exchange or
use value is the product of human labor. 2) Exchange value is determined
by the socially necessary labor required for its production.

In the example above, the worker is paid $22/hr. What determines the
value of his labor? It is the socially necessary labor required to
product (or reproduce) the worker. This includes his up bringing and
education to get him to the point were he can do the job. It also
includes what is required to sustain him on the job and raise a family
(reproduce the laborer). Is he paid at the value of his labor? Depends,
could be more or less. And depends on many factors but as with all
prices will tend to center on value. Say $22.00/hr covers all those
costs of labor, but if the value the product of his labor isn't worth
$90/hr his employer will soon run out of work for him. The difference
between the value needed to produce the worker and the value in turn
produced by the worker is the source of all surplus value and profit.
The $68 dollar difference in this example divides between the owners
overhead and his profit. When he sells parts, he is adding value [by
making them locally available, incorporating in a repair. etc.] to items
which are the product of other worker's labor and so it value.

This is the real beauty of the labor theory of value. It reveals labor
as the source of all creation. The math on this doesn't care whether it
is a slave system or socialism.

> /Q: Hello, I'm getting ready for a debate on Marxism and my opponent
> has in the past pointed out that value is in fact subjective. I may
> value a pot at $100 yet he may value it at $50. If it is true that
> Labor determines the value of this pot, how do I argue against the
> Subjective Theory of Value?/
Subjective "value" is neither exchange value or use value, which the
owner of a pot he "values" at $100 will quickly find out if the market
thinks it is only worth $50.00. [ the socially necessary labor to
produce the pot]

Since I'm running out of time here, i will make this last point brief,
but it is extremely important - the value I'm speaking of here is what
is socially necessary given a certain level of technology and other
concrete condition of production. i.e., you can't increase the value of
your work product by working slower.
"socially necessary" should prefix every reference to exchange value
above even when I short-cut it.

In the case of a high price command by " a well-established abstract
artist,"  we should consider not only all that has gone into creating
this artist, but all the "socially necessary" labor that went into
producing all the artists that are still starving. Same in other areas -
a lucky prospector find a huge nugget his first day on the job - but how
many man-hours were spent panning by the unlucky ones - all their labor
may at first glance appear worthless but it was socially necessary so
that the occasion gem can be produced.

-- 
Clay Claiborne, Owner
Cosmos Engineering Co. 
116 Rose Ave, Ste. 9
Venice Beach, CA 90291
(310)581-1536

(323) 219-6507 cell

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[Marxism] More evidence of Obama's determination to destroy Syria


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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/europe/holder-urges-better-antiterror-tactics-for-europe.html

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[Marxism] Fwd: Questions about socialism and value theory | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist


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Recently a correspondent posed some questions to me that I would like to 
respond to publicly since others might get something out of my response.


Q: “How would a socialist system account for jobs that don’t occur on 
property? Or small businesses that adhere to the service industry where 
minuscule amounts of profit comes from labor time as opposed to capital 
investment? i.e., I get paid $22 per hour / 89.50 labor rate. 60 
otherwise goes overhead. And I sell the parts my boss invests in with 
his capital.”


I’ve been faced with this question and I’m unsure how to respond; what 
is a fairly short explanation of how a social system based on workplace 
democracy would replace this? What’s the socialist solution to this problem?


A: In general, I shy away from questions about how a future socialist 
system will work but in the Russian revolution the original intent was 
to only expropriate the big capitalists. In the immediate period, 
however, a policy of War Communism led to the expropriation of all 
privately owned firms, large and small. This was a function more of the 
need to disempower a middle class that was hostile to the revolution 
rather than comply with any socialist blueprint—which of course Marx 
never intended to begin with.


full: 
http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/08/questions-about-socialism-and-value-theory/


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[Marxism] RedWedge this week: The Black Cultural Front, W. Benjamin and Classical Marxism + more

2014-07-08 Thread Adam Turl via Marxism

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New on redwedgemagazine.com this week:



“Listening for Mrs. Lynch: Left Culture as Mass Matter” by Joseph Ramsey

Brian Dolinar opens The Black Cultural Front: Black Writers and Artists of
the Depression Generation (University Press of Mississippi, 2012) by
quoting not from a major artist or critic, but from a virtually forgotten
participant in a long-dismembered radical organization, an audience member
at a panel about “Culture” held by the National Negro Congress of 1940.
 During the lively discussion that followed the official presentations, a
woman identified in the proceedings only as “Mrs. Lynch” spoke up,
reminding the room that the cultural front mattered because “it is the
cultural things that keep us from going stark crazy” (3).

http://redwedgemagazine.com/articles/listening-mrs-lynch-left-culture-mass-matter

“Walter Benjamin and the Classical Marxist Tradition” by Neil Davidson

An earlier version of this article by Neil Davidson appeared in International
Socialism  121. An updated version appears in
Davidson’s new book Holding Fast to an Image of the Past: Explorations in
the Marxist Tradition

(Haymarket Books,  2014). While Davidson’s
article is part of debate with British socialist Chris Nineham we feel it
offers an excellent introduction and method by which to approach the work
of Walter Benjamin. Benjamin is arguably the most important Marxist
cultural critic of the 20th century. His legacy, however, has long been
distorted by sectarian dismissiveness on the one hand and academic
obscurantism on the other. We hope Davidson’s nuanced but rooted Marxist
approach will help to reclaim Benjamin from the academic swamp and help
inoculate practical socialists from a vulgar approach to art and culture.
Most importantly we hope this article contributes to a discussion that
reconciles the best of so-called “Western Marxism” and the Frankfurt School
with the actuality of revolution and immediacy of the class struggle.

http://redwedgemagazine.com/articles/walter-benjamin-classical-marxist-tradition

“In Defense of Classical Crowd Surfing” by Xavier Pontoon

For the past two weeks, buried within the interminable detritus of most
mainstream news, there has been a real gem of a story. I am speaking, of
course, of David Glowacki: the scientist and artist who was ejected

from a performance of Handel’s Messiah at the Old Vic Theatre in Bristol,
UK for the offense of, apparently, trying to crowd surf.

http://redwedgemagazine.com/articles/defense-classical-crowd-surfing

plus “Bells Being Best Heard in Darkness,” “The Political Murals of
Belfast” and “The Russian Revolution, Stalin and Shostakovich and the Jazz
Age”

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Re: [Marxism] books/articles on the soviets


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On 7/8/14 2:46 AM, LARRY LAMBERT via Marxism wrote:


Does anyone have a bibliography dealing with the structure, operations and role 
of the Soviets in the Russian Revolutionary movement 1905  -- mid 1920s ?

Thanks for any help



Also, I have access to these JSTOR articles. They should have useful 
bibliographical information:


The Bolsheviks and the Formation of the Petrograd Soviet in the February 
Revolution

Tsuyoshi Hasegawa
Soviet Studies, Vol. 29, No. 1 (Jan., 1977), pp. 86-107

The Evolution of Local Soviets in Petrograd, November 1917-June 1918: 
The Case of the First City District Soviet

Alexander Rabinowitch
Slavic Review, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Spring, 1987), pp. 20-37

Contact me offlist if you or others want copies.


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Re: [Marxism] books/articles on the soviets


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On 7/8/14 2:46 AM, LARRY LAMBERT via Marxism wrote:

Does anyone have a bibliography dealing with the structure, operations and role 
of the Soviets in the Russian Revolutionary movement 1905  -- mid 1920s ?

Thanks for any help


This might help. Google this: "soviet masses petrograd 
site:www.marxists.org/"



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[Marxism] Fwd: What compromise are we prepared to make to save lives in the Donbas? | Observer Ukraine

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WHAT COMPROMISE ARE WE PREPARED TO MAKE TO SAVE LIVES IN THE DONBAS?
Zakhar Popovych, member of the Left Opposition, Kyiv

Published originally on the website Haslo: http://gaslo.info/?p=5298

Translation by Marko Bojcun

Only the lazy aren’t talking about the need to stop the Anti-Terrorist
Operation (ATO). The speediest possible halt to the armed conflict has
even become even the official position of the Ukrainian authorities. The
issue, however, is that some people see the halt to the ATO coming with
the ultimate victory of the Ukrainian government’s army, which at this
moment has a clear advantage in numbers and arms. In our view, such a
“victory” is not possible right now without massive civilian casualties
in the region. And even if it is achieved, it will lead to the growth of
a completely justifiable hatred on the part of the local population not
just towards the pro-government army but in general to the Ukrainian
state itself.

A Ukrainian authority established by way of terror will not be strong
and will never be accepted by the eastern Ukrainians as their own. But
it is precisely down this path that extremists on both sides of the
conflict are pushing us. In the end this particular path leads to the
complete loss of faith in these regions in Ukrainian state institutions
and the de facto disintegration of the contemporary Ukrainian state.
This is precisely the scenario that anti-Ukrainian forces want to see;
they want to prove above all the incapacity of the contemporary
Ukrainian state and the inability of Ukrainians to exist as a political
nation.

full:
http://observerukraine.net/2014/06/11/what-compromise-are-we-prepared-to-make-to-save-lives-in-the-donbas/

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Coldplay angers fans by telling them to check out ‘Freedom for Palestine’ video - WorldViews - The Washington Post

2014-07-08 Thread Sheldon Ranz via Marxism

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Uh oh - is this why Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin are no longer a couple?

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
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> ==
>
>
>
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/post/
> coldplay-angers-fans-by-telling-them-to-check-out-
> freedom-for-palestine-video/2011/06/03/AG50OvHH_blog.html
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/sranz18%
> 40gmail.com
>

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Re: [Marxism] Growing support for Open Access journals

2014-07-08 Thread Jesse Lemisch via Marxism


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Taylor and Francis, like Elsevier and the others, are crooks and privateers. 
They offered to sell me my article in their Sixties journal for $39, and it 
was a struggle to get them to acknowledge that they could publish with a 
"licensing agreement" from me, meaning that I wouldn't have to surrender 
copyright (which they may have stolen anyway.) . They are sending 
questionanaires to their authors in the attempt to figure out how to control 
open-access schemes that bypass TandF/ Screw them and their ilk.


Jesse Lemiisch 



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[Marxism] Fwd: Coldplay angers fans by telling them to check out ‘Freedom for Palestine’ video - WorldViews - The Washington Post


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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/post/coldplay-angers-fans-by-telling-them-to-check-out-freedom-for-palestine-video/2011/06/03/AG50OvHH_blog.html

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Re: [Marxism] books/articles on the soviets

2014-07-08 Thread Levins, Richard via Marxism

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Dear Larry, I don¹y have the reference you asked for but was delighted to
see your name and send you greetings from long ago. Dick

On 7/8/14, 2:46 AM, "LARRY LAMBERT via Marxism"
 wrote:

>==
>Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>==
>
>
>Does anyone have a bibliography dealing with the structure, operations
>and role of the Soviets in the Russian Revolutionary movement 1905  --
>mid 1920s ?
>
>Thanks for any help
>
>Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
>Set your options at:
>http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/humaneco%40hsph.harvard.edu

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[Marxism] Growing support for Open Access journals


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http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/explore/open-access-survey-june2014.pdf

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[Marxism] Fwd: Qi Zhao and FALLEN CITY national broadcast premiere | POV


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 Original Message 
Subject:Qi Zhao and FALLEN CITY national broadcast premiere | POV
Date:   Mon, 07 Jul 2014 13:08:10 -0400
From:   eseel borlasa 
Reply-To:   e...@eseelborlasa.com
To: 



FOR YOUR FEATURE CONSIDERATION:

*FALLEN CITY broadcast premiere*

Dear Media Friend,

I hope you this message finds you well, and that you enjoyed the Holiday
Weekend. Please mark your calendar for the broadcast premiere *FALLEN
CITY*, a documentary film directed by Qi Zhao.

Filmmaker Qi Zhao, who producedLAST TRAIN HOME (Sundance Grand Jury
Prize Winner), gives us an intimate look at life in Beichuan, China -
following the tragic earthquake(s) and floods of 2008.

VIEW TRAILER:
http://www.pbs.org/pov/fallencity
FALLEN CITY will have its national broadcast debut on POV, the
critically acclaimed series on PBS; it is scheduled for July 28th at
10pm (check your local listings for exact time and channel).
This film humbly presents the the damages (physcial and emotional) from
natural disasters. I invite you to share this important film with your
audience. Yoru feature coverage is encouraged. Press materials are below
for your reference. If you'd like a screener or a filmmaker interview,
kindly let me know.
Your editorial consideration is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Warmest regards,
Eseel
e...@eseelborlasa.com
562.881.6725 cell

/“The story of Beichuan is just one of many that remained untold. The
city lost some 30,000 lives in the May 2008 earthquake. But added to the
tragedy was a lack of compassion and desire to understand what was
really lost in the disaster. Much of the population took news reports as
the last word on the matter, and Beichuan quickly became a tourist
destination. By giving voice to the survivors, Fallen City provides
direct and intimate access to the people behind the statistics and
headlines. It is not an exploration of the magnitude of the disaster,
but a portrait of human choice and human nature writ large in the wake
of a tragedy.”/
/– Qi Zhao (Director, FALLEN CITY)/

FALLEN CITY director, Qi Zhao // Credit Shaoguang Sun

*FALLEN CITY*
*a documentary film directed by Qi Zhao*
*BROADCAST PREMIERE:*
July 28, 2014  @ 10pm
(check your local listings for exact showtime)
*ABOUT THE FILM: *
In today’s go-go China, an old city completely destroyed by a
devastating earthquake can be rebuilt — boasting new and improved civic
amenities — in an astoundingly quick two years. But, as Fallen City
reveals, the journey from the ruined old city of Beichuan to the new
Beichuan nearby is long and heartbreaking for the survivors. Three
families struggle with loss — most strikingly the loss of children and
grandchildren — and feelings of loneliness, fear and dislocation that no
amount of propaganda can disguise. First-time director Qi Zhao offers an
intimate look at a country torn between tradition and modernity.
Official Selection of the 2013 Sundance Film Festival. A co-production
of ITVS International. A co-presentation with the Center for Asian
American Media (CAAM).
*VIEW TRAILER: *
http://www.pbs.org/pov/fallencity/
*PHOTOS (captions + credits):*
https://www.flickr.com/photos/povdocs/sets/72157641671677854/
*FILMMAKER STATEMENT:*
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JSe783Y2y0qlDkbEX6f3QEEa35TVZ-4YExJwUSo9iIM/edit?usp=sharing 



*INTERVIEW OPPORTUNITY:*
Qi Zhao is based in Beijing. He is available for interview via
Skype/Phone/Email.
*PRESS CONTACT:*
Eseel Borlasa (POV Consultant)
e...@eseelborlasa.com
562.881.6725 cell



This message was sent to l...@panix.com from:

eseel borlasa | e...@eseelborlasa.com | Eseel Borlasa | 4614 Hedda St. |
Lakewood, CA 90712



Email Marketing by iContact - Try It Free!


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[Marxism] Graphic History Collective


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The members of the Graphic History Collective came together specifically 
to produce a historical account of May Day in Canada in the form of a 
comic book. For that purpose we received funding from the “Working 
Histories” Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada’s 
Research Knowledge Cluster initiated by Joan Sangster at Trent 
university, Peterborough, Ontario. Through our historical research we 
found many different May Day stories in newspapers, books, and journals, 
and drafted plans for combining text with images with the aim of making 
this history educational and inspirational for a cross-section of 
audiences. Over time new people joined our project, adding their own 
skills and talents, while sharing a love of history alongside a 
dedication to issues of social and economic justice. The Graphic History 
Collective continues to develop graphic history projects to present 
historical information about issues that remain important and relevant 
today. Members so far have included Mark Leier, Robin Folvik, Sean 
Carleton, Julia Smith, Sam Bradd, and Trevor McKilligan. While we have 
new projects under consideration, we welcome any suggestions from 
readers for histories that you would like to see in graphic form. If you 
have feedback or ideas on what should be brought out of the “dustbin of 
history,” please email us at graphichistorycollect...@gmail.com.


In love and solidarity! The Graphic History Collective

P.S. We’re on Facebook: www.facebook.com/Graphic-History-Collective

http://graphichistorycollective.com/

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Re: [Marxism] STOPFAKE.ORG

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Calling it the Kiev coup regime (even after the election!) is also a
pro-Russian position.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 



On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Magnolia Bloomberg via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> I'd take them more seriously if they framed their statements more
> accurately. Their bias is showing.
> Such as:
> July 02, 2014 - 16:57
>
>
>Pro-Russian Separatist Supporters Seek Western Support On Social
>Media
> supporters-seek-western-support-on-social-media/>
>
> Why call them 'pro-Russian'. They are just Ukrainians who don't recognise
> the Kiev coup regime. Looks fake to me like a NED fake front.
>
>
> On 08/07/14 09:53, marxism-requ...@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
>
>> Message: 21
>> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 16:53:29 -0700
>> From: Clay Claiborne
>> To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
>> 
>> Subject: [Marxism] STOPFAKE.ORG
>> Message-ID:
>> > gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> http://www.stopfake.org
>>
>> This looks like a very good myth debunking site about Ukraine.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clay Claiborne, Director
>>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%
> 40gmail.com
>

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[Marxism] The Everything Bubble

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The expectations that American, European and Japanese capitalism will
somehow come out of the current crisis on a stronger and more vibrant
basis seem grounded more on habits of mind rather than hard reality. It
is entirely possible that these economies will recover but not on the
basis described by Engels or Schumpeter. Unemployed auto workers or
computer programmers cannot be assured of being swept along in a new
upward cycle. It is entirely possible that the reserve army of the
unemployed will never be called into action for the 21st century
equivalent of Ford Motor in the 20s and 30s, or IBM in the 50s and 60s.
That goes a long way in explaining why there has been a recent drop in
unemployment as more and more Americans have given up trying to find a
job. These are members of the reserve army who have simply torn off
their uniforms and gone AWOL.

full:
http://louisproyect.org/2012/01/17/mitt-romney-karl-marx-and-the-myth-of-creative-destruction/

---

NY Times, July 8 2014
Welcome to the Everything Boom, or Maybe the Everything Bubble
by Neil Irwin

In Spain, where there was a debt crisis just two years ago, investors
are so eager to buy the government’s bonds that they recently accepted
the lowest interest rates since 1789.

In New York, the Art Deco office tower at One Wall Street sold in May
for $585 million, only three months after the going wisdom in the real
estate industry was that it would sell for more like $466 million, the
estimate in one industry tip sheet.

In France, a cable-television company called Numericable was recently
able to borrow $11 billion, the largest junk bond deal on record — and
despite the risk usually associated with junk bonds, the interest rate
was a low 4.875 percent.

Welcome to the Everything Boom — and, quite possibly, the Everything
Bubble. Around the world, nearly every asset class is expensive by
historical standards. Stocks and bonds; emerging markets and advanced
economies; urban office towers and Iowa farmland; you name it, and it is
trading at prices that are high by historical standards relative to
fundamentals. The inverse of that is relatively low returns for investors.

The phenomenon is rooted in two interrelated forces. Worldwide, more
money is piling into savings than businesses believe they can use to
make productive investments. At the same time, the world’s major central
banks have been on a six-year campaign of holding down interest rates
and creating more money from thin air to try to stimulate stronger
growth in the wake of the financial crisis.

“We’re in a world where there are very few unambiguously cheap assets,”
said Russ Koesterich, chief investment strategist at BlackRock, one of
the world’s biggest asset managers, who spends his days scouring the
earth for potential opportunities for investors to get a better return
relative to the risks they are taking on. “If you ask me to give you the
one big bargain out there, I’m not sure there is one.”

But frustrating as the situation can be for investors hoping for better
returns, the bigger question for the global economy is what happens
next. How long will this low-return environment last? And what risks are
being created that might be realized only if and when the Everything
Boom ends?

Safe assets, like United States Treasury bonds, have been offering
investors paltry returns for years, ever since the global financial
crisis. What has changed in the last two years is that risky assets,
like stocks, junk bonds, real estate and emerging market bonds, have
also joined the party.

Want to buy shares of American companies? At the current level of the
Standard & Poor’s 500 index, every dollar invested in stocks buys you
about 5.5 cents of corporate earnings, down from 7.4 cents two years ago
— and lower than just before the global financial crisis in 2007-8.

Prefer a more solid asset? The price of office and apartment building
has risen similarly; office space in central business districts
nationwide costs $300 per square foot on average, up from $147 in early
2010, according to Real Capital Analytics. In Manhattan, an investor in
an office building can expect rent payments after expenses to add up to
only a 4.4 percent return, known as the capitalization rate, lower than
even in 2007, the top of the last boom.

What about overseas investments? Spain and other Southern European
countries that were the nexus of the European debt crisis are not the
only places where bond rates have plummeted (even Greece was able to
issue bonds at favorable rates earlier this year). Emerging markets,
which generally have higher interest rates because of higher inflation
and less political stability, are offering record low interest ra

[Marxism] Fwd: [haw-info] Letter in solidarity with Professor Rabab Abdulhadi of San Francisco State University

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 Original Message 
Subject:[haw-info] Letter in solidarity with Professor Rabab Abdulhadi
of San Francisco State University
Date:   Tue, 8 Jul 2014 10:27:16 -0400
From:   Van Gosse 
To: haw-i...@stopthewars.org 



Dear HAW members,

I am sending you the attached "International Academic and Public
Intellectuals Letter," inviting your signature.  It expresses solidarity
with the Palestinian-American scholar Rabab Abdulhadi, Director of
the Arab and Muslim Ethnicities and Diasporas Initiative (/AMED/) at
SFSU. She has been the target of a vicious attack from the rightwing
pro-Israel group AMCHA.   I helped author the letter, which is being
circulated globally.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dEE4RzV2dGR5bThJdERaTmlZeVFwTEE6MA
(you will have to cut-and-paste this link into your search engine, I'm
afraid)


If you need more information, here are some links:
1. AMCHAs May 27^th  attack
http://www.amchainitiative.org/amcha-write-sfsu-president-leslie-wong-regarding-sfsu-professor-of-ethnic-studies-rabab-abdulhadi-egregious-misuse-of-university-and-taxpayer-funds/ 


and the most recent one demanding that the State Controller investigates
me http://www.amchainitiative.org/letter-to-controller-chiang/
2. My public statement in response to the attack
http://palestinelegalsupport.org/download/Public%20Statement%20-%20Abdulhadi%20-%20June%202014.pdf
3. Statement from members of the Jewish community
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?fromEmail=true&formkey=dGhvbDRMQTR0bkhVQWhrWGxCV19GNVE6MA
4. Statement from African American community
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHpudF9LVHFBSjdGVW41WWhHbjJHZFE6MA
5. Statement from members of delegations I led to Palestine
http://palestinelegalsupport.org/download/Public%20Statement%20-%20Abdulhadi%20-%20June%202014.pdf
6. Statement from the Dean of the College of Ethnic Studies
http://ethnicstudies.sfsu.edu/ethnicst/content/application-statement-current-or-going-circumstances

Very best,

Van Gosse
Department of History
Franklin & Marshall College
Lancaster PA 17604-3003
van.go...@fandm.edu 
717-615-4708
@vangosse

For my blog, go to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-gosse

For scholarly, political, and musical writings go to:
http://vangosse.com/

For all kinds of useful material, including Portside and the Radical
History Review, go to the website of the Post-Capitalist Project:
www.postcapitalistproject.org 












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[Marxism] Netanyahu suppressed info to create a bloodlust

2014-07-08 Thread Dennis Brasky via Marxism

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http://electronicintifada.net/content/netanyahu-government-knew-teens-were-dead-it-whipped-racist-frenzy/13533?utm_source=EI+readers&utm_campaign=e73df1d0d5-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-e73df1d0d5-290662377

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[Marxism] The Return of Martin Smith (SWP’s ‘Comrade Delta’).

2014-07-08 Thread andrew coates via Marxism

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Martin Smith (Comrade Delta) is back!
Apparently with the support from some people  based in France.
By an obvious oversight, and no doubt mindful of some ‘other’ controversies 
involving members of political parties, Smith does not mention his most 
celebrated achievement.
But this is what he and his new mate say,
“Over the past 30 years both of us have been involved in one way or another 
with the struggle against racism and fascism.On this blog we will carry news, 
discussion and debate on the rise of the far right and fascism — and the 
movements that are developing to challenge this threat both in Britain and 
Europe.But our interests are many and varied. We will also write about other 
political and cultural matters.If you don’t like football, you should look away 
from posts about West Ham or Spurs!Please feel free to join the debate by 
posting comments.We welcome serious comments and discussion — whether you agree 
or disagree.We hope you enjoy the site.Martin Smith and Tash Shifrin"

More on|: 
http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/the-return-of-martin-smith-swps-comrade-delta/
Andrew Coates 

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Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?

2014-07-08 Thread Ratbag Media via Marxism

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I'm not in the business of denigrating the Greens. I think Gary is right
that our Greens are not a neo-liberal project in the sense that the LNP
and the ALP definitely are.

But that said, what's the likely strength of this "left around Greenland
and Bandt" ? Esp given that on the major disputes it has rolled over for
the sake of consensus...and chooses to ignore spectral pragmatism of the
Tasmanian option.

The recent NSW members meeting organised to discuss the Milne refusal to
block the Abbott budget
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-greens-branded-awesomely-stupid-over-moves-to-block-supply-20140606-39ojp.html
suggests that the momentum is not strong given that the core budget issue
was a biggy when this fuel tax debate is really just fallout
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-in-turmoil-as-grassroots-members-push-for-new-fuel-tax-backflip-20140702-3b8tn.html

But the consequence is that the Greens have lost traction on the left
because -- as Andrew Wilkie has bluntly said, ""Labor and the Greens have
been huffing and puffing against the budget but when it came to the crunch
and an opportunity to put words into actions, they sided with the
government."
https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56744

That's absolutely true. -- and people KNOW it. Even Greens members.

This isn't a " longed for opening to the Left '..not yet, anyway.But it
does suggest that there is motion to the left of the Greens that is
unwilling to be drawn into their electoralist framework...and , in a sense,
they've lost their carte blanche. Indeed if it wasn't for their steady
state hold on the refugee issue their credibility would be much less at the
moment.

But with over 10,000 members the 'Greens' aren't something to ignore or
dismiss:
"Membership figures for the Greens, seen by *The Age*, show that the party
grew from 1538 members in 1998-99 to 10,429 in 2009-10. The party's
membership is dwarfed by Labor, which says it had 37,500 members in
2009-10, but the ALP's membership is in decline, especially since its most
recent peak, around the time of Kevin Rudd's election, when there were just
under 50,000 members."
http://www.theage.com.au/national/greens-membership-tops-1-as-labor-feels-the-heat-20110221-1b2i3.html#ixzz36s17T794

..and many people turn to the Greens as
their initial political engagement beyond the main parties. And as Rudolf
Bahro said, 'The Greens are the last hesitation to socialism." --and even
with all this neo-liberal pressure I think thats;' still absolutely true.

Ultimately, the Greens' core conundrum is strategic. How do they
move forward and impact on Australian politics? While we may know the
answer to that , the tactical reality hasn't registered more generally.
The Greens have chosen to align themselves with either of the main parties
rather than turn to and consistently rely on the streets and the
mobilisations...and that's been the steady trajectory played
out variously in different states.

The tragedy is that in my experience I can cite past ALP MPs
and senators who were day to day very much more supportive of the mass
movements, of protest actions outside parliament, of campaign committees
and organisations, of trade unions, than the Greens gang are today. So I
think we need to consider the Greens in a broader historical threshold
of radicalism as 'NOT being Liberal or ALP' or NOT neo-liberal isn't
really the criteria we should be held hostage to... As a
left alternative to Laborism they are a failed project...already.

dave riley

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Re: [Marxism] It's the St Louis all over again

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This is a deeply shaming action. Words fail me to describe what the
Liberals and their Labor hangers on are doing to the wretched folk to risk
all to get here.

You are absolute correct in your historical comparison, John.  Absolutely.

comradely

Gary

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 3:23 PM, En Passant with John Passant via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> It's the St Louis all over again
>
> In 1939 the US turned back the boat the St Louis with 939 Jews on board.
> It went back to Europe. Estimates are that at least 250 of those Jews died
> in the Holocaust. It is the same logic that sees Australian 'Border
> Protection' Minister Scott Morrison return asylum seekers to the war
> criminals and human rights abusers in charge of Sri Lanka.
>
> http://enpassant.com.au/2014/07/08/its-the-st-louis-all-over-again/
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com
>

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Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?