Re: [Marxism] Putin's leftist friends
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == T wrote: > That is no excuse for tolerating an infestation of vermin who side with the > U.S. Empire against the Russian Empire, or those who side with the Russian > Empire against the U.S. Empire. And yet you praise the secessionist cause, led by people who make no bones about siding with one empire against the other; who imposed themselves by force against the wishes of the majority of the population in Eastern Ukraine; and who have contempt for elected officials. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Putin's leftist friends
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Russia is run by a corrupt pack of super rich capitalists, called oligarchs, who intend to oppress and exploit every piece of the earth they can get their hands on for their Empire, and don’t give a shit about freedom, democracy, the right of nations to self-determination, or anything else besides heaping up their money. The United States is run by a corrupt pack of super rich capitalists, called oligarchs, who intend to oppress and exploit every piece of the earth they can get their hands on for their Empire, and don’t give a shit about freedom, democracy, the right of nations to self-determination, or anything else besides heaping up their money. The Ukrainian government in Kyiv is run by a corrupt pack of super rich capitalists, called oligarchs, who intend to oppress and exploit every piece of the land inside the borders of the Ukraine they can get their hands on, and don’t give a shit about about freedom, democracy, or anything else besides heaping up their money. That said, regardless of the regime in power over them, the Ukrainians have the right to refuse to become part of either the Russian or the U.S. Empires, and to resist either by force of arms. If Ukrainians could manage to wipe out their own ruling class government of oligarchs, centered in Kyiv, and install a working class government, it would be much easier to defend themselves against hungry Empires. This would also bring the support of unhappy Eastern Ukrainians. The Eastern Ukrainians have as much right to revolution against a government of capitalist oligarch tyrants as the Ukrainians had to rise up against the government of the tyrant Yanukovych and his oligarchs that their uncompleted revolution overthrew in February. The Eastern Ukrainians are right to rise up against the new government of oligarchs in Kyiv and the billionaire oligarchs that government has appointed to rule over them without their consent. If they wish to, the Eastern Ukrainians have as much right to self-determination as any other group of oppressed, exploited people ruled by appointed oligarchs who set governors over them from far away, and grow fat on their exploitation. In the best of all possible worlds, Ukrainian government soldiers and the armed rebels of Eastern Ukraine would stop fighting each other and join together to wipe out all the Ukrainian oligarchs, and set an example for what Russians can do with Putin’s government of, by, and for the super rich in Russia. Obviously, that is not likely now. That is no excuse for tolerating an infestation of vermin who side with the U.S. Empire against the Russian Empire, or those who side with the Russian Empire against the U.S. Empire. T -Original Message- >From: Glenn Kissack via Marxism >Sent: Jul 28, 2014 11:10 AM >To: Thomas F Barton >Subject: Re: [Marxism] Putin's leftist friends > > >> __ > >Thanks for posting this. Among other things, the author clearly understands >that Ukraine is the site of inter-imperialist conflict and that the U.S. has >been active in pulling Ukraine out of the Russian orbit and into that of >Western capitalism. In arguing against the left taking pro-Putin positions, he >consciously avoids letting the U.S. off the hook. The Salon piece stands in >contrast to Clay's postings. > >Glenn > >Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu >Set your options at: >http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Putin's leftist friends
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > http://www.salon.com/2014/07/26/strange_bedfellows_putin_the_chomskyite_left_and_the_ghosts_of_the_cold_war/?source=newsletter > __ Thanks for posting this. Among other things, the author clearly understands that Ukraine is the site of inter-imperialist conflict and that the U.S. has been active in pulling Ukraine out of the Russian orbit and into that of Western capitalism. In arguing against the left taking pro-Putin positions, he consciously avoids letting the U.S. off the hook. The Salon piece stands in contrast to Clay's postings. Glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Putin's leftist friends
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/28/14 12:21 AM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism wrote: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/26/strange_bedfellows_putin_the_chomskyite_left_and_the_ghosts_of_the_cold_war/?source=newsletter I think there's a fairly large bloc of people who have taken the turn to Putin without having read Chomsky or Stephen F. Cohen. These are Trotskyists, or more accurately people trained in the Trotskyist worldview, who are anxious to "defend the Soviet Union" as Trotsky did. They understand that Russia is a capitalist nation and even does some bad things but they see it as the last best hope of the colonial revolution. That is the legacy of Sam Marcy as someone once pointed out here. Sam developed this theory long before Chomsky ever wrote a single article on imperialism. Probably the best example of this is the unfortunate Roger Annis, who seems to have gone off the deep end. If you follow his blog, as I do out of morbid curiosity, you will see some startling formulations including a defense of Igor Strelkov (Girkin), the Russian who commands the Dontetsk People's Republic militia. Strelkov has had some bad press recently, over his reportedly savage behavior as a Russian nationalist fighter in Yugoslavia and Chechnya and for his ISIS like conduct in Donetsk, including the execution of some poor soul who stole a couple of shirts. Here is Annis quoting a "Russian colleague" who makes the case for Strelkov (http://www.rogerannis.com/slander-abounds-in-depictions-of-autonomy-fighters-in-eastern-ukraine-while-mh-17-investigation-stalls-and-kyivs-war-rages/): "As for Strelkov-Girkins' career, he was an historian and he studied together with a comrade, a well-known specialist and member of the Russian Party of Left Socialist Revolutionaries (PLSR). Strelkov was unsuccessful in academia. His ideological sympathies are clearly with pre-revolutionary Russia and the White movement. He identifies with people like General Denikin who in 1941 declared solidarity with the USSR, seeing Stalin as a lesser evil compared with Hitler." While it would be nearly impossible to deny Strelkov's rightwing nationalist affiliations, there's a dodgy attempt to salvage his reputation through a couple of references to his "line of march" coinciding with the left. What does it mean that he "studied with a comrade" of the Party of Left Socialist Revolutionaries? That they sat in the same classroom? In terms of Denikin, the most ruthless counter-revolutionary general in the White Army, what difference does it make that he saw Stalin as a "lesser evil"? I imagine that this is analogous to the Golden Dawn in Greece hailing Putin as an enemy of the EU. There is every likelihood that the "Russian colleague" who fed Annis this information is none other than Boris Kagarlitsky, a Great Russian chauvinist favored by Annis, Renfrey Clarke and our friends in the Australian Socialist Alliance. There's an interesting article on a meeting of the Putinite left in Worker's Liberty, a British sect that plays the same role as the CPGB, to gossip in the "trainspotting" mode. Despite that, there are some useful observations here: http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2014/07/23/popular-front-russian-nationalism. Since the author reads Russian, she has a leg up. She writes: -->Kagarlitsky has attacked Ukrainian socialists for intervening in the Maidan protests (dominated, he says, by fascist slogans), and for failing to support what he calls “the perfect embodiment of the anarchist concept of the revolutionary order” which he has discovered in the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics. (8) And now he writes articles praising Strelkov-Girkin, a Russian nationalist who wants to reduce Ukraine to the borders of historical Galicia, and who fought for the Russian separatists in Transnistria, for Milosevic in Bosnia, and for Putin in the two Chechen wars: “Strelkov promises to maintain order in Donetsk, and there is no reason not to take him at his word. War will be declared on the criminality, looting and anarchy of the field commanders. Military discipline, which was successfully maintained in besieged Slaviansk, will be established in Donetsk as well.” (9),<-- Using her knowledge of Russian, she translates this item from the Russian press (http://novorossia.su/ru/node/3924): -->Until the arrival of Igor Ivanovich (Strelkov-Girkin) in Donetsk there was too much democracy here. In Slaviansk if anyone was guilty of serious looting, we simply shot them. That’s why there was no looting and we were very popular with the population. We had a ‘dry law’ (i.e. a ban on drinking). You need a strong power at a time of war. We are all in one boat – the peaceful citizens and the militia. Strelkov and B
[Marxism] Putin's leftist friends
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.salon.com/2014/07/26/strange_bedfellows_putin_the_chomskyite_left_and_the_ghosts_of_the_cold_war/?source=newsletter Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
