Re: [Marxism] Scottish independence
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I am not sure what you mean by obscurantist. In the paragraph you cite, below, Davidson says (1) socialists are not nationalists, (2) Scotland is not an oppressed nation, and (3) socialists can in some situations support a national movement even when the nation in question is not oppressed. These propositions strike me as correct. I leave aside his specific examples of Pan-Slavism in 1848... Serbia in 1914 and ... the Iraqi Kurds today. We are talking about Scotland in 2014, and each national question must be assessed on its own merits. Richard -Original Message- Richard Fidler: Neil Davidson ... the correct standpoint of revolutionary socialist strategy...: http://www.socialistproject.org/the-left/for-a-yes-vote-without-illusions-on -the-scottish-independence-referendum/ You mean obscurantist correctness like this: We need to begin with what I regard as fundamental principles. Socialists cannot be nationalists for any nation, but especially not their own, even if their nation is oppressed. What they can do is support certain national movements and demands, up to and including secession. The basis for deciding which-if any to support in any given situation is political, which is not to say that it can be determined by the blunt instrument of the 'oppressed/oppressor' formula: there are situations where even oppressed nationalities cannot be supported if their objectives are essentially part of a greater imperialist strategy, as was the case for Pan-Slavism in 1848, for Serbia in 1914 and for the Iraqi Kurds today. And Scotland is not, and has never been, an oppressed nation. As one commentator to Davidson's piece quite rightly wrote about his argumentation:'For a yes vote without any illusions there is any point voting yes?' Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Scottish independence
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == In addition to all the excellent arguments advanced by Wainwright, Monbiot and Davidson -- and so many others -- here's more to underscore their point about the political crisis of government in the British state that would be unleashed pursuant to a successful yes vote and the beneficial break-up of Britain that it might entail: http://tinyurl.com/khjwwa8. Richard -Original Message- From: Louis Proyect [mailto:l...@panix.com] Sent: September-04-14 8:32 AM To: Richard Fidler; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] Scottish independence Forwarded from Sandy McBurney: http://tinyurl.com/nml4ufn Useful response to the Neil Davidson article Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Scottish independence
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sandy posted his (her?) own article at http://tinyurl.com/na5azzm Neil Davidson has replied with this, an important article that approaches the question from the correct standpoint of revolutionary socialist strategy, something that is largely overlooked by many radicals today: http://tinyurl.com/mny9otu Richard -Original Message- From: Marxism [mailto:marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu] On Behalf Of sandy McBurney via Marxism Sent: September-03-14 6:41 PM To: rfidle...@sympatico.ca Subject: [Marxism] Scottish independence == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == For a No Vote without Illusions: On the Scottish Independence Referendum For a No Vote without Illusions: On the Scottish Indepen... The working class in Britain has been created in over two hundred years of common struggle against the British capitalist class and the British capitalist state... View on www.socialistproject... Preview by Yahoo Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/rfidler_8%40sympatico.ca Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Scottish independence
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Richard Fidler: Neil Davidson ... the correct standpoint of revolutionary socialist strategy...: http://www.socialistproject.org/the-left/for-a-yes-vote-without-illusions-on-the-scottish-independence-referendum/ You mean obscurantist correctness like this: We need to begin with what I regard as fundamental principles. Socialists cannot be nationalists for any nation, but especially not their own, even if their nation is oppressed. What they can do is support certain national movements and demands, up to and including secession. The basis for deciding which-if any to support in any given situation is political, which is not to say that it can be determined by the blunt instrument of the 'oppressed/oppressor' formula: there are situations where even oppressed nationalities cannot be supported if their objectives are essentially part of a greater imperialist strategy, as was the case for Pan-Slavism in 1848, for Serbia in 1914 and for the Iraqi Kurds today. And Scotland is not, and has never been, an oppressed nation. As one commentator to Davidson's piece quite rightly wrote about his argumentation:'For a yes vote without any illusions there is any point voting yes?' Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
