Re: [Marxism] What is to be Done with the Banks? Radical Proposals for Radical Changes
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thanks Richard. When I posted to this list the version on the IV website I forgot to mention that it's a product of CADTM, and it helps to have their original link. Because CADTM knows whereof they speak, and has played a big role in helping radicals in several countries - including most recently Greece - to resist the TINA myth. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Richard Fidler via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Well worth considering... > http://cadtm.org/What-is-to-be-Done-with-the-Banks,13315 > > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] What is to be Done with the Banks? Radical Proposals for Radical Changes
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well worth considering... http://cadtm.org/What-is-to-be-Done-with-the-Banks,13315 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is to be done
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Good job Louis. Ironically the quote cited by Brinton - and taken totally out of context - comes from a pamphlet which shows Lenin precisely at his best, both in terms of making realistic compromises, and in his insistence on rank-and-file control of production, accounting and management wherever realistically possible, an insistence overlapping with his repeated tribute to co-ops. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/mar/x03.htm On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Dr. Welton, > > In your long diatribe against Lenin on CounterPunch today, you turn "What > is to be Done" into some kind of original sin: > > "In his educational treatise What is to be Done? (1903), Lenin formulates > the pedagogical relationship between educator (socialist intellectual) and > those to be educated (peasants and proletariat) in bluntly instrumental and > directive terms. > > "This famous (or infamous) text can be situated in the years between 1872 > and 1905 that were marked by the absence of revolution. The existing > revolutionary parties held gradualist and economistic beliefs, and Lenin > could not see any way forward without 'vanguard' subordination of the > working class to the Leninist educator." > > You don't seem to understand that Lenin's ideas on the revolutionary party > were a direct application of the model of the German Social Democracy. > Lenin wrote: > > "Why is there not a single political event in Germany that does not add to > the authority and prestige of the Social-Democracy? Because > Social-Democracy is always found to be in advance of all the others in > furnishing the most revolutionary appraisal of every given event and in > championing every protest against tyranny...It intervenes in every sphere > and in every question of social and political life; in the matter of > Wilhelm's refusal to endorse a bourgeois progressive as city mayor (our > Economists have not managed to educate the Germans to the understanding > that such an act is, in fact, a compromise with liberalism!); in the matter > of the law against 'obscene' publications and pictures; in the matter of > governmental influence on the election of professors, etc., etc." > > Lenin's main point is that the Social Democrat should not aspire to be a > trade union secretary, but instead the "tribune of the people." This > tribune will "react to every manifestation of tyranny and oppression, no > matter where it appears, no matter what stratum of people it affects; who > is able to generalize all these manifestations and produce a single picture > of police violence and capitalist exploitation; who is able to take > advantage of every event, however small, in order to set forth before all > his socialist convictions and his democratic demands, in order to clarify > for all and everyone the world-historic significance of the struggle for > the emancipation of the proletariat." > > Lenin's example of one such tribune is the German Social Democratic leader > Wilhelm Liebnecht. The German Social Democracy was Lenin's *model* for what > was needed in Russia. This type of party did not exist in Russia and it was > his goal to build one. > > You cite a number of enemies of Lenin in your diatribe including Maurice > Brinton whose citation of Lenin's 1918 article "The Immediate Tasks of the > Soviet Government" supposedly sealed the fate of the Russian Revolution and > prepared the way for Stalin: > > “Revolution demands, in the interests of socialism, that the masses > unquestioningly obey the single will of the leaders of the labour process.” > > I am not sure what it is that you teach but history does not seem to be > your forte. Lenin's article was written during the civil war when the USSR > was invaded by 8 imperialist armies, including the USA. This was resulted > in the death of 7 to 12 million people, mostly civilians, according to the > Wikipedia article on the Russian civil war. > > Once the civil war was over, the Soviets dropped war communism like a hot > potato and moved toward the NEP which hardly maps to Maurice Brinton's > nightmare. Of course the NEP led to a series of other problems that > arguably strengthened Stalin's hand. In any case, the best way to > understand what happened in the USSR is not by quoting libertarian
[Marxism] What is to be done
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Dr. Welton, In your long diatribe against Lenin on CounterPunch today, you turn "What is to be Done" into some kind of original sin: "In his educational treatise What is to be Done? (1903), Lenin formulates the pedagogical relationship between educator (socialist intellectual) and those to be educated (peasants and proletariat) in bluntly instrumental and directive terms. "This famous (or infamous) text can be situated in the years between 1872 and 1905 that were marked by the absence of revolution. The existing revolutionary parties held gradualist and economistic beliefs, and Lenin could not see any way forward without 'vanguard' subordination of the working class to the Leninist educator." You don't seem to understand that Lenin's ideas on the revolutionary party were a direct application of the model of the German Social Democracy. Lenin wrote: "Why is there not a single political event in Germany that does not add to the authority and prestige of the Social-Democracy? Because Social-Democracy is always found to be in advance of all the others in furnishing the most revolutionary appraisal of every given event and in championing every protest against tyranny...It intervenes in every sphere and in every question of social and political life; in the matter of Wilhelm's refusal to endorse a bourgeois progressive as city mayor (our Economists have not managed to educate the Germans to the understanding that such an act is, in fact, a compromise with liberalism!); in the matter of the law against 'obscene' publications and pictures; in the matter of governmental influence on the election of professors, etc., etc." Lenin's main point is that the Social Democrat should not aspire to be a trade union secretary, but instead the "tribune of the people." This tribune will "react to every manifestation of tyranny and oppression, no matter where it appears, no matter what stratum of people it affects; who is able to generalize all these manifestations and produce a single picture of police violence and capitalist exploitation; who is able to take advantage of every event, however small, in order to set forth before all his socialist convictions and his democratic demands, in order to clarify for all and everyone the world-historic significance of the struggle for the emancipation of the proletariat." Lenin's example of one such tribune is the German Social Democratic leader Wilhelm Liebnecht. The German Social Democracy was Lenin's *model* for what was needed in Russia. This type of party did not exist in Russia and it was his goal to build one. You cite a number of enemies of Lenin in your diatribe including Maurice Brinton whose citation of Lenin's 1918 article "The Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Government" supposedly sealed the fate of the Russian Revolution and prepared the way for Stalin: “Revolution demands, in the interests of socialism, that the masses unquestioningly obey the single will of the leaders of the labour process.” I am not sure what it is that you teach but history does not seem to be your forte. Lenin's article was written during the civil war when the USSR was invaded by 8 imperialist armies, including the USA. This was resulted in the death of 7 to 12 million people, mostly civilians, according to the Wikipedia article on the Russian civil war. Once the civil war was over, the Soviets dropped war communism like a hot potato and moved toward the NEP which hardly maps to Maurice Brinton's nightmare. Of course the NEP led to a series of other problems that arguably strengthened Stalin's hand. In any case, the best way to understand what happened in the USSR is not by quoting libertarian communists like Maurice Brinton that sound great one paper. Rather it requires an engagement with the social and economic forces that acted mercilessly on Lenin and all attempts in the 20th and 21st century to build an alternative to capitalism. The lesson that can be drawn is that socialism requires a global framework if it is to succeed. Lenin's writings and even the fitful attempts of the Comintern to provide such a framework are still useful for those of us who remain inspired by the 1917 revolution. Although I am happy to see CounterPunch, a website that unfortunately gives far too much space for people who obviously admire Stalin and Stalin Jr. (Vladimir Putin), publish your article, it is a disservice to socialism. My recommendation to you is to read Neil Harding's "Lenin's Political Thought" to get a handle on what Lenin believed as opposed to the funhouse mirror of Maurice Brinton et al. Have a nice day.
