Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Our first responsibility is to try to figure out things. That's what I tried to contribute towards. As far as the Constituent Assembly: I really don't know enough about it other than what I read in the capitalist media, which of course is not reliable. Nor do I automatically trust what the left press has to say, as much of this press is the same press that supports Assad, supported Brexit, etc. If Manuel Barrera or anybody else has some reliable reports on the Constituent Assembly - who they are, how it was organized, etc. - I think we all would greatly benefit from reading it. John Reimann On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Manuel Barrera wrote: > John says: "I think it is correct to characterize the regime there as > bonepartist. > Chavez rose to power based on the support of a layer of mid and lower level > military officers. He never had the support of the Venezuelan capitalist > class, but neither was he based on the organizations of the working class. > In other words, he hovered above or between the classes." > > Roberts doesn't seem to make any political characterizations, but does > throw his economist weight behind the undermining of the Maduro > administration all under the framework of a "discussion" not of Maduro's > capitalsit machinations but on the event of the Constituuent Assembly. > Reimann follows suit, not discussing the Constituent Assembly but whether > Maduro is revolutionary (he's not) and the capitalist nature of his > government (more aptly The government of which he is president). > It may sound all revolutionary to criticize Maduro and his ostensible > "bonapartist regime". Indeed, it is an accurate appraisal to state that the > present Chavista-based government is a capitalist state resting on its > support by the military and feigning alliance with workers and the > oppressed. > > However, NONE of that is really the point. What of the Constituent > Assembly as an answer to the rightist movement of the bosses seeking > hegemony within the present government? What should working people, and > revolutionaries, do. Right now? Oppose the Constituent Assembly because it > isn't creating "dual power" or doing some other "more revolutionary" thing? > > In truth, it is fairly safe to "characterize" Maduro and even critically > support his government against imperialist and rightwing attempts to > undermine it. But what does the Constituent Assembly represent, not for > Maduro or the right wing, but for the masses of Venezuela? Are we to arrive > at some "sideline armchair quarterbacking" to criticize an effort that at > the least seeks to find representation in government for the masses? Should > revolutionaries revert to the time-honored litmus-testing about how this > particular "answer" to right wing and imperialist attack simply isn't good > enough for "our support"? Or, should revolutionaries seek to use this event > of constituent assembly to press forward stronger, more democratic, > economic, and political mobilzations of the masses in their (our) > interests? What is happening in Venezuela is not some "lesser-evilism" > electoral campaign but a protracted struggle in which the masses are indeed > marginalized by the capitalist class And by the Chavista government and > military. I see the Constituent Assembly as an avenue to pursue political > efforts at mobilizing the masses. They must be mobilized, however, For > Something. Either some idealistic notion of a (non-existent currently) > "workers and people's government" , the Chavista government or the Capriles > rightist movement to undermine the Chavistas. Working people do not have > the "luxury" to choose and revolutionaries should not be so arrogant--and > treacherous--as to have an uncategorical answer. > We Need To Support the Constituent Assembly AND, to the extent that Maduro > and his ilk support it, we need to stand against imperialism and their > agents in Venezuela as they try to engage an Allende-like coup. > > -- "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them." Asata Shakur Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and // www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * John says: "I think it is correct to characterize the regime there as bonepartist. Chavez rose to power based on the support of a layer of mid and lower level military officers. He never had the support of the Venezuelan capitalist class, but neither was he based on the organizations of the working class. In other words, he hovered above or between the classes." Roberts doesn't seem to make any political characterizations, but does throw his economist weight behind the undermining of the Maduro administration all under the framework of a "discussion" not of Maduro's capitalsit machinations but on the event of the Constituuent Assembly. Reimann follows suit, not discussing the Constituent Assembly but whether Maduro is revolutionary (he's not) and the capitalist nature of his government (more aptly The government of which he is president). It may sound all revolutionary to criticize Maduro and his ostensible "bonapartist regime". Indeed, it is an accurate appraisal to state that the present Chavista-based government is a capitalist state resting on its support by the military and feigning alliance with workers and the oppressed. However, NONE of that is really the point. What of the Constituent Assembly as an answer to the rightist movement of the bosses seeking hegemony within the present government? What should working people, and revolutionaries, do. Right now? Oppose the Constituent Assembly because it isn't creating "dual power" or doing some other "more revolutionary" thing? In truth, it is fairly safe to "characterize" Maduro and even critically support his government against imperialist and rightwing attempts to undermine it. But what does the Constituent Assembly represent, not for Maduro or the right wing, but for the masses of Venezuela? Are we to arrive at some "sideline armchair quarterbacking" to criticize an effort that at the least seeks to find representation in government for the masses? Should revolutionaries revert to the time-honored litmus-testing about how this particular "answer" to right wing and imperialist attack simply isn't good enough for "our support"? Or, should revolutionaries seek to use this event of constituent assembly to press forward stronger, more democratic, economic, and political mobilzations of the masses in their (our) interests? What is happening in Venezuela is not some "lesser-evilism" electoral campaign but a protracted struggle in which the masses are indeed marginalized by the capitalist class And by the Chavi sta government and military. I see the Constituent Assembly as an avenue to pursue political efforts at mobilizing the masses. They must be mobilized, however, For Something. Either some idealistic notion of a (non-existent currently) "workers and people's government" , the Chavista government or the Capriles rightist movement to undermine the Chavistas. Working people do not have the "luxury" to choose and revolutionaries should not be so arrogant--and treacherous--as to have an uncategorical answer. We Need To Support the Constituent Assembly AND, to the extent that Maduro and his ilk support it, we need to stand against imperialism and their agents in Venezuela as they try to engage an Allende-like coup. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * People seem to take objection to the article by Michael Roberts on Venezuela. I think it is correct to characterize the regime there as bonepartist. Chavez rose to power based on the support of a layer of mid and lower level military officers. He never had the support of the Venezuelan capitalist class, but neither was he based on the organizations of the working class. In other words, he hovered above or between the classes. Yes, he carried through many reforms that benefited the working class and the poor, but they were not in control. And what is so strange about that? Didn't Peron do the same thing? Or Lazaro Cardenas in Mexico? A typical bonepartist regime can shift its balance over time. With the economic crisis there, according to Roberts, the Maduro regime is resting more directly on the military, such as for example the special priviliged stores open to the soldiers. Do people deny that? I also agree that as far as the economy goes, Chavez went part way. He nationalized many major industries (and gave state support to worker cooperatives in other cases). But what wasn't developed was a planned economy. Under democratic state planning, the economy could have been developed in a way that would have left it less dependent on oil exports. None of this means support for Capriles or the right wing opposition. But it also doesn't mean socialists should uncritically support Maduro. John Reimann -- "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them." Asata Shakur Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and // www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts Blog
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 8/4/17 7:44 AM, Jeff wrote: Is that what you mean by "anti-Maduro left?" Seems rather hard to argue with. No, it is this: "So, as anti-government protestors fight the police and army on the streets and the Maduro government moves ever closer to outright authoritarian rule, the working class is left in the cold." _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts Blog
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2017-08-03 14:01, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: Michael Roberts aligns with the anti-Maduro left. "Could this tragedy been avoided? Well, yes, if the Chavista revolution had not stopped at less than halfway, leaving the economy still predominantly in the control of capital. Instead, the Chavista and Maduro governments relied on high oil prices and huge oil reserves to reduce poverty, while failing to transform the economy through productive investment, state ownership and planning." Is that what you mean by "anti-Maduro left?" Seems rather hard to argue with. - Jeff https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/the-tragedy-of-venezuela/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
