Re: [Marxism] American style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, This list is not for me, so I'm unsubscribing as soon as I send this to you, but I will send you some comments (directly to your email) on the new article "Bipartisanship," that I like very much. glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] To My Socialists Friends: I care who wins the election.
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == There is no doubt that the Democratic party and the Republican party are the two wings of the Capitalist demon that is dragging us all to hell, but it is equally clear, if We want to be honest, that the Republicans are worse, not only in the sense of their hateful intentions, but also in the sense of the direct impact of their policies on the daily lives of millions of Americans. The call for radical change meets with resistance from Dem-progressives who want incremental change now, and Socialists cannot overcome it by correctly pointing out how bad the Democrats are because the Republicans are worse? In Ca., the Republican Senatorial candidate, Carly Fiorina, said last week that there are approximately 16 million people on Medical who don't belong there? I know from personal experience how stringent the requirements are for being accepted into this program. One must be poor to the point of destitution in order to qualify. Many people who have relatives in this program are not politically savvy. They don't have the luxury to think only long-term. They may be against the wars and the privatization of SS, and so on, but they need to refill the medication bottles next month, as a matter of life and death. If you are going to tell these people not to vote, or to vote for a third party candidate that the polls clearly show is not going to win this time around, then you better have a better argument than listing many other big problems that the Democrats are causing? I don't really know the answer to this dilemma myself, but I think it needs serious attention. g Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American style: tomorrow elections, Obama , The Future is Up to Us
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, Defeating the Republican Party is the politics of emergency, which is very different from building a deep, long-range radical movement, and that's why I vote Democratic unless there's a Green or Socialist who has a chance to win. I don't know why you say that "building a socialist movement is a middle class pipe dream"? The idea of using "church time" for another project is a novel ideal. I like it! I agree that America is undergoing an economic revolution to an electronic-technological regime, but the Subjective factor still lags behind? Could you say more about "the historical errors of American communism". I think that the ritualization of language and dogmatism are reasons why the socialists and communists parties have failed in America. More later today g > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > > 2. Thinking that voting straight Democratic is anyway to build a socialist > movement is fucknuts. > ML Voting for the lesser-evil while building a deep, long-range movement for real change in America is not "fucknuts," but dogmatic disrespect toward fellow Socialists/Communists is poison. No one twisted your arm to reply to my comments or questions. g > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, I'm on my way out the door to my second job, but I will respond to both of your messages asap, probably tomorrow afternoon. Thank you very much. g > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > a Dump Obama movement afoot: replace Obama in the primaries with a true > progressive. What's your take on this effort, as a Marxist? > > glenn > > Reply > > Progressive? > > Richard Nixon himself (a man I loved to hate), was progressive concerning a > huge part of Civil Rights. But was he "progressive?" Nixon's > administration was the architect of official black capitalism and using > government as an > insurgent instrument to desegregate institutions. This reform of the > system was a precondition for its expansion. Nixon's administration coined > "affirmative action," demanding quotas as proof of desegregation policy. "Who > and how many as proof of policy" was the watchword. > > Today, the "reactionary right" has spent 30 years attacking this system of > affirmative action, quotas and so-called big government. > > Who and what is progressive in national politics ought to be weighed > against an on going living process, with differences between national, local > and governor sized elections. > > Brother, we're subject to be under martial law by October 2012. > > II. Progressive > > Opposing expansion of police power, seeking to strip from the executive > branch and intelligence, built up mandates of authority since Nixon, is > progressive in November 2010. Avoiding jail in America is progressive, every > since Paris Hilton and Martha Stewart. When jailing blonds becomes a public > ritual, the state - executive authority, is fighting women and anyone can be > jailed for something or another. > > "Who's next?" > > Betty Crocker? > > After Betty goes Aunt Jemina. > > Then, somebody who" looks like" Maria - Mexican immigrant housekeepers. We > wake up one morning and everyone's children are born in jail, with > biological tag implants and a prison record. > > Obama increases police and executive power, which makes him a cop's cop. > > Cop systems use government to hire people to spy on other people, jail them > and beat them up. Americans do not put on their job applications, "I want > to beat people up, jail them and spy on my mother." Lots of people within > the executive branch is progressive, opposing expansion of police power but > needed a job. > > Working for a "progressive presidential contender" inside and outside the > two party system seems to be "the question." > > Using ones tiny organization resources to shape "national party primary > candidates," is a waste of my time, money, patients and good humor as a > suggestion. If a third party candidate is the issue, then communists and > socialist recruit within this process. > > III. > > I do not advocate communists work within the Democratic Party to shape its > primary Presidential election in 2012 . . . or back in 2008, 04, 1998, > going back to Jesse Jackson first run for President. When "big Jesse" ran for > president, this was the first modern - post desegregation, breach in > national politics. Before "big Jesse" Presidential run I advocate nothing > other > than "Freedom Now" as the cutting edge of the fight for emancipation of the > proletariat. > > On the local level, working within the two party systems is a different > attitude. Specifically, we ran a local communist candidate within the > Democratic primary due to election laws outlawing third party candidates. > This > meant we went overboard and put the "hammer and sickle" - literally, on all > our > campaign literature and posters. As things turned out, going overboard was > the right thing to do. > > Detroit in the 1970's was on political fire. During the next election cycle > a combination of forces were able to overturn this state law. This > condition meant the Communist Labor Party and the Socialist Workers Party > could > run candidates on their party platforms. > > What happened is this: campaign handbills focused on the issue of the > election and policy 100% favorable to the workers. We spoke of George Edwards > being in the pocket of the banks in this kind of literature. In the paper - > communist press, we spoke of the banks and high finance, and the system of > capitalist exploitation. > > IV. > > Communists are going to recruit people in the Democratic Party, because > communists are involved in electoral work. My opinion is this; outside of > ones > organization support for a "
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark, Is there a reason why you speak of "independent political action on the Left " instead of building a socialist movement? Would that language scare off too many Greens? Just asking? Sounds like you don't like my perspective on voting: I vote straight Democratic ticket unless the polls indicate that a Green or a Socialist has a chance to win. I appreciate your bold and honest position, but the outcome of the midterms and 2012 is not, in my opinion, "of absolutely no importance whatsoever." I know that this is an informal conversation, and that the Democrats, to be sure, can't save Capitalism, but if Jerry Brown becomes Governor of Ca., and Boxer wins, then my brain-damaged immigrate brother-in-law has a better chance to survive budget cuts to Medicaid, and that's especially important to my Philpina wife, Yolanda, so I advise her and her friends to vote Democratic. I don't believe We can dismiss the differences between the Democrats and the Republicans around election time. I'm not big on electoral politics except as an educational platform for getting out the radical message. However, my interest in contributing to a deep, long-range socialist movement does not bar me from taking short-term, immediate actions that can make a real difference in the lives of actually existing people (such as vote for Democrats at 5 minutes to midnight). I'm not condemning your point of view, and in fact I'm hoping you will shed some light on this issue. After all, the example I gave is indicative of what goes on in the minds and lives of Americans everywhere, and We need to adequately address it. In fact, it's probably the most common objection that Dem-Progressives raise against radicals, so how do you respond? g > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > I care about electoral politics, mostly as a measure at this point. > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Morning Mark, I'm not saying that the Greens are guilty of the petrification of Marxian language. I was talking about the Socialists/Communists parties in America. This is no longer the 19th Century, and so we should not use canned vocabulary to explain the essence behind the appearance to the people. Capitalism has changed and dialectical concepts should reflect that change. My point about the Greens is that, yes, they set people in motion around key issues, but spontaneous protest must be translated into organized action that calls for a radical restructuring of society, and that's the role of the leadership. There's a gap or leap between the consciousness of the people, even the people in revolt, and true class consciousness. The Greens (like American Anarchists) place too much emphasis on the process of struggle, and not enough emphasis on intellectual comprehension of the process that sums it up, and plainly explains to the people that Capitalism has to go. Marxists have an obligation to tell the people what they know in a language the people can relate to. Question: I don't know who started this thread, but do you care about the elections on tuesday? g > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Frankly, Glenn, I don't see the difference between your insistence on > "Marxist analysis in a language that people can understand," which you say > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Morning Mark, I'm not saying that the Greens are guilty of the petrification of Marxian language. I was talking about the Socialists/Communists parties in America. This is no longer the 19th Century, and so we should not use canned vocabulary to explain the essence behind the appearance to the people. Capitalism has changed and dialectical concepts should reflect that change. My point about the Greens is that, yes, they set people in motion around key issues, but spontaneous protest must be translated into organized action that calls for a radical restructuring of society, and that's the role of the leadership. There's a gap or leap between the consciousness of the people, even the people in revolt, and true class consciousness. The Greens (like American Anarchists) place too much emphasis on the process of struggle, and not enough emphasis on intellectual comprehension of the process that sums it up, and plainly explains to the people that Capitalism has to go. Marxists have an obligation to tell the people what they know in a language the people can relate to. Question: I don't know who started this thread, but do you care about the elections on tuesday? g > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Frankly, Glenn, I don't see the difference between your insistence on > "Marxist analysis in a language that people can understand," which you say > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark, A big problem for me personally, and for many others I think, with the SLP and other major Socialist/Communists parties in America is the ritualization and fetishization of Marxian language. For the Greens not to play footies with the Democrats is a part of the solution, but they also need an overt and explicit radical message in a language that connects with the immediate lives of people, otherwise they become Progressives who never get around to explaining the systemic cause of human want and suffering. The revolutionary starting point depends on one's point of view: from the point of view of politically unaware people, the beginning is the everyday struggle for survival, but from the point of view of politically awake folks, the beginning is Marxist analysis in a language that people can understand. Is it really necessary for intellectuals to join the picket lines, or is it more important that they provide a theoretical framework for workers to grasp what is happening and why it is happening? g > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > No, Glenn. Absolutely not. The Greens don't "get lost in processes, > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, I really like the communal effort of your organization, including "Rally Comrades." Of course some people know better than others, but that's not the main thing. Everyone, who is politically aware, has something worthwhile to say, and the truth is an integral politics. In the later years of his life, Rudolf Bahro had some interesting things to say about the process of political integration in which not all perspectives are equal, but the aperspectival truth is a true synthesis. Do you know his later work? Anyhow, here's a question for you: There's a Dump Obama movement afoot: replace Obama in the primaries with a true progressive. What's your take on this effort, as a Marxist? glenn > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > >> > > Perry's "Epoch of Social Revolution" sparked a massive debate within the > communist/socialist ideological currents. Initially, we were dubbed > "techno-communist," revisionist and deniers of "workers revolution" to speak > of a > new form of the proletariat birthed in correspondence to a new technology > regime. > >> > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, Thank you. That's helpful. More later, after work. glenn >> > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark, The Greens get lost in processes, strategies, and actions because the self-conscious End ( of Capitalism) is not always clearly contained in what they do. When Marx supported the Unions he always did so in the bold, explicit context of getting rid of Capitalism. There was nothing shy or hidden about his approach. He did not believe that any struggle would automatically lead to class consciousness. The essence of dialectical materialism is that the End is contained in the Beginning, and the role of intellectuals in understanding and articulating the whole process at every stage is indispensible, or so it seem to me? glenn > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Some Greens advocate an end to capitalism and some don't. But that's the > wrong starting point to understand these things. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark, Yes, it is too bad that Marxists haven't related better to the Greens (as a whole). Why do you suppose that it? Do you think that the US Green Party even desires the end of Capitalism, or are they too much of a mixed bag for anyone to know? glenn > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > The Greens remain, as they always have been...a mixed bag that varies > tremendously from one part of the country to another. > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, Just finished "The Politics of Bipartisanship." It's a brilliant Marxist analysis of American electoral politics, and that's EXACTLY what is needed right now in my opinion. I have some reservations about what is said regarding the necessity of a Third Party, but that's OK because the most important thing at this historical moment is that WE have this conversation, and bring forth a lot of perspectives that will help us move forward. I'm now reading Nelson Peery's "Entering An epoch of Social Revolution," and I see that he has the right focus. Pleased to meet you on Marxmail, courtesy of Louis Proyect. glenn > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, Thank you once again for your in-depth analysis of the American political scene. I get your basic point: the role of intellectual revolutionaries is to help the people in moving along what you call the "line of march. Simply put, you see workers, who are displaced by advancing technological society, engaging in more and more of a struggle against the State; they cannot really get at corporate employers, so they will increasingly demand the satisfaction of their needs from the State. In this way, the economic struggle becomes a political struggle, and with the help of revolutionaries, the collective awareness is ultimately reached that it is necessary (for the satisfaction of human needs) to make the means of production public property. Is that the gist of it? I find it to be a novel and insightful perspective that I need to further consider? The manner in which "Rally Comrades" is organized and functions is fascinating, and I'm glad to hear that these kind of political-communal experiments are happening in America. As you know, America has its own history of Utopian experimentation, which may not be as bold or deep, generally speaking, as European-style alternative living and working circles, but there's a rich history here to be build on. I'm going to read the new essay on the politics of bipartisanship this afternoon, and post some comments asap. Naturally, I'm very interested to hear more about your class on "America and the Marxist approach". What else can you tell me about it? glenn> > > Marx economic determinism - (how revolution in means of production and > corresponding political relations compel society to leaps to a new mode of > production), Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, Yes, "Rally Commades" has great material. Who writes those articles? They do make sense! I tried to subscribe just now, but the page gets "broken," so I'll try again tomorrow, after I read the new essay you recommended, and I'll probably get back to you tomorrow. Nice photo! glenn > > WL. > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style (sorry)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, Don't apologize because this is exactly the kind of discussion I hoped to start: to examine the surface of American politics toward the goal of building a deep, long-range movement in America. I almost called this thread "Toward a Theory of Revolution (fundamental change) in America, but decided on the more general label of "21st Century American-style Socialism." It seems to me that there hasn't been a lot of really good comprehensive work of this kind in several decades, but I admit that I don't a have as close a relationship to the relevant literature as I once did. Nevertheless, fresh attempts are needed to identify the new forces or tendencies for revolution in America, as well as the counter-forces that function to preserve the status quo or worse. Your new post is a goldmine in this regard, so I will study it and get back to you asap? glenn > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > > I reread what I wrote and Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL, I appreciate the thoughtful concern that you and a few others have given to this thread. You have just laid out what appears to me to be an original account of the meaning of the term "progressive," so I need to read it several times, ponder it, and then I will respond, probably tomorrow (mon) afternoon. glenn > From: waistli...@aol.com > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:42:11 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Marxism] American-style > To: rai...@hotmail.com > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > > Defining the politics and class sociology of "progressive" is a recurring > subject of this list. Is industrialism progressive on the scale of history? > During the period of the direct colonial system, one section of Marxism > defined resistance to direct colonial structures and combat against the > imperial storm troopers as progressive. During WW II "progressive" had a > specific > meaning. > > In the movie Casablanca, bar owner Rick is cast as a progressive democrat > in relationship to German fascism and its military representatives. Is Rick > progressive in fact? My opinion is Rick is progressive as an > anti-fascist/anti-communist democrat of the era of the war against the > fascist axis. > > When legal segregation was under dismantling, a complex intersection of > classes (social forces) pushed forth desegregating American society. > Desegregation generated its political polarity, as those for and against > desegregation. Those opposing desegregation were "reactionary." Communists > and > socialists operated within the general desegregation - progressive, political > polarity. > > It gets more complicated in real time. Progressive ought to be anchored in > real time. > > Obama is not progressive. Nor is he reactionary. Rather, I place Obama on > the "revolutionary right," increasingly fascist but not "reactionary." > > Obama is on the "revolutionary right" meaning he is fighting for a > revolutionary overhaul of the system based on a revolutionary new technology > regime and a new form of private property detached from surplus value > production. Obama politics of bipartisanship is not an impulse to return to > the past, > the meaning of reactionary, but an attempt to shape the evolutionary leap > to a new mode of production with a new form of private property. > > This approach implies a reactionary and revolutionary component of the > left, however one defines the left. "Left" for the past 100 years has meant > the > left bench of the bourgeoisie. Communists identified themselves with and > within the broad "left wing" during a period of evolutionary leap from > agrarian relations to industrial relations, or the period of destruction of > political feudalism. This period of history is long gone. > > It seems to me the "reactionary left" demands a return to the past, or > restoration of the buying and selling of labor ability, based on the social > relations of capital of an era gone. At its worse the reactionary Left calls > for restoration of the old Roosevelt Coalition, or a "new" New Deal, > believing this program rather than WW II brought the American economy out of > crisis. This feature of the "left" under conditions of an evolutionary leap > to a > new mode of production is not clear to all at this moment. > > Demanding the return of "our jobs" is neither progressive nor clever, but > apparently something we have to grapple with. Many working class folks hold > to magical thinking believing "we" can return to the post WW II period of > class fluidity and higher wages. > > It gets more complicated because the distressed segments of the proletariat > have no choice but to demand government aid. Is seeking government aid > progressive? Large corporations have no choice but to seek government bailout > facing market failure. General Motors and Chrysler are examples of > non-financial companies going "belly up." > > Real class struggle is a messy business, with complex overlapping demands > by all classes and class fragments, compelled to attack the system as it > exists. > > I don't seek to avoid this issue, but defining and clarifying what is > "progressive" outside an actual context is virtually impossible. As a curve > of > history, the rising bourgeoisie manifest and express a new "revolutionary > agency" - is progressive, in the form of new means of production, a new form > of wealth (private property), as these new forms of social intercourse > evolved in antagonism with the old dying feudal social order. Here, > progressi
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tom, I'm all for mass actions, and there's a multitude of ways tot get our ideas out. I happen to believe in the primacy of radical political education/communication, and perhaps that's one more reason why working within the uncensored "progressive" blogs appeals to me, but focusing on issues that most/many people already agree with never seems to lead to Alternative consciousness, but starting with S//C also has its problems, as Mark noted ? What's needed is a leap of consciousness, and that probably has a lot to do with personal experience? glenn > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark, The danger is that We don't get to the point of clearly articulating and explaining the End of Capitalism and the concrete Alternative. I suspect that there are a significant number of closet radicals in the progressive movement, but they get lost in process/strategy. I actually favor a more direct approach. I see your point about presenting things as a "shift of control", but the situation is truly ambiguous because even workers control would not necessarily mean liberation unless they also reached emancipatory consciousness. Agree? glenn > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:54:27 -0400 > From: markala...@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [Marxism] American-style > To: rai...@hotmail.com > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > I suppose that socialism in the abstract isn't a good start. We start with > immediate problems and begin to pose questions in such a way as to clarify > that socialism is the solution. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mark, I didn't say, or mean to say, that We are not getting our ideas to relevant blogs. I'm just asking for ideas on the best way to present Socialist/C ideas to, say, Open Salon and the Seminal (now known as MYFDL)? , if you think the task is important? The Daily KOZ seems to be too much pro-capitalism to bother with. Perhaps Left Talk? g > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > I called bloggers a "mixed bag" not only because of the diverse politics, > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey Mark, I don’t want to defend Olbermann, especially since I’ve been railing against the Progressive leadership for months now on other websites, and because that’s not the focus of my question to fellow Socialists and Communists at the moment, so let’s go back to the “mixed bag of bloggers” that you referred to. Within this diverse group, there’s a lot of intelligent folks, Can We? how can We? move them to radical/higher consciousness? More specifically, it there a way to tailor our message so that it appeals to those who are full of facts, information, electoral processes and issues, but lack Vision of a completely different life-style? glenn > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Yes, Glenn. When the media gives someone like Keith Olbermann a platform, > he is, for all practical purposes, a corporate mouthpiece. > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Are you telling me, Mark, that Keith Olbermann is a corporate mouthpiece? I don't think so? He's not a radical, and that's a big problem in my mind, but he's a broadcaster, I believe, hat We shouldn't write off? Actually, I don't think there's much chance of folks like me influencing Olbermann, but what about all the little professional and amateur intellectual progressives out there? Is it worthwhile trying to build a bridge with them? I'm not sure myself? I'm retiring for the evening, but I be back online tomorrow morning. g > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tom, I agree with most of what you say, but I'm not sure that we can or should ignore or minimize the importance of the intellectual progressive broadcasters and bloggers. Let's face it, Countdown (with Keith Olberman) helps to quiet Fox Noise, or what do you think? I too dislike one-way communication/education, and that's why I only pariticipate on open blogs, and I find that they do provide a lot of valuable facts, and up-to-the-minute information, but little radical consciousness? So far I have not been able to make much head way in terms of radicalizing these folks, and that's why I'm asking for insights from others about possible ways of doing so. I'm a mailman (who has read a lot of books to be sure) with not much time or energy at this point in my life for travel, or out of town meetings, especially since I live in a rural community in N. CA. Perhaps I've been forced to believe in the battle of ideas on the internet, or perhaps this really is an important forum for making history in the 21st Century? I'll be 60 in a few months. g > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Glenn, there's no contradiction between being a worker with one's hands on > the means of production and being an intellectual > > Tom, > > Wouldn'd you say that intellectual progressives also need to hear the > socialist message, or do you think that they can't be reached? > > glenn > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tom, Wouldn'd you say that intellectual progressives also need to hear the socialist message, or do you think that they can't be reached? glenn > From: bia...@embarqmail.com > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 18:57:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Marxism] American-style > To: rai...@hotmail.com > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > It's not so much what people THINK, as who they are. The people to whom we > should reach out are the organized workers and people of color who are > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I see what you mean now! Do you think that some progressives are pushing things in the right direction? How about the professional progressives, for lack of better words, who blog everyday for specific issues that might actually improve the quality of life in America for ordinary people at least a little? Any ideas about how We, who believe that the whole thing is still moving in the wrong direction, bridge with these folks?I agree with Tom's point about the importance of building respect, but I'm not likely to personally bond with most of the young professional progressives who are an important political force in this country? glenn > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > But if you want to build bridges someplace, you'd better have a good, clear > idea of where you're hoping to anchor the other end of the bridge, right? > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == ML, The term "progressive" is used everywhere in American politics. I believe it has a general meaning, if not a singular meaning. Wouldn't you agree? If you don't like that term, then think of people in America who are Left of Obama, but not (yet?) Socialists or Communists. Clealy, there are many people like Olbermann, for example, who speak, write, blog and organize everyday around issues that would improve the lives of ordinary folks, but show no hint, as far as I can tell, of being Socialists. My question is" How do WE build a bridge with them? glenn > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > The notion that there is so singular thing as "a progressive movement" is > mistaken. As far as that goes, so is the very idea that we can define the > term "progressive" in any meaningful way...that is, something that reflects > how the term's used in the wider world...particularly as it's > self-applied > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WL. Your observation that progressives are focused on issues that put human needs ahead of corporate profits is spot on, and you provide a useful insight that We (from the 60s) were driven more by moral imperatives (such as ending the war in Vietnam) than the (potentially) “new revolutionaries,” who are mostly trying to avoid growing destitution (in part because We were privileged middle and upper middle class youth). I’m still pondering your comments overall, and it would be helpful to know what you think not only about the base of the progressive movement--which is pretty much what you have characterized to me, I believe--but what’s your take on the leadership of the progressive movement? I mean not only folks such as Olbermann, David Corn, Norman Soloman, and the other stars or celebrities, taken as a whole, but what about all the progressive bloggers out there? It seems to me that some of the best and brightest young people in America are to be found in this arena, but not many of them are socialists/communists, as far has I can see? What is a good way for radicals to relate to these different layers of the progressive movement? glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I’m wondering if electoral politics can work for the purpose of getting the Communist/Socialist message out, to publicly explain the symptoms of the money-sickness in America, and offer a cure. It seems clear enough that any politician and/or activist who ignores the basic fact that America requires a whole new foundation, is building a house of cards, but since there are many bright folks, especially youth, in Dem-Progressive politics, there might be a good way to build a bridge with them, and eventually bring them over to our side, so I would like to hear what others think? glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A simple slogan [Re: American-style]
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ok, thanks for the clarification. . The comments were > directed towards to the US, where I know there is no widespread embrace of > socialist consciousness. > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ecosocialism reviewed
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Rudolf Bahro never rejected socialism in his embrace of ecology. glenn Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I would put it this way: America needs a planned economy for the satisfaction of basic/vital needs for all. Agree? glenn > From: waistli...@aol.com > Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 08:39:56 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Marxism] American-style > To: rai...@hotmail.com > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > > Broad advocacy for "Nationalization" and explanation of its meaning to the > working class masses is on the agenda. The "agenda" grows out of the > spontaneous impulses of all classes struggling to mitigate and survive crisis > of > capital in an environment of revolution in the means of production. General > Motors and Chrysler have been partially nationalized. > > Health care or "Medicare for all" with zero cost to the individual is > something our working class is spontaneously fighting for in the here and > now. > Expanded "section 8" - "Public housing," with no cost to the individual or > cost based on income. Full nationalization of public education; zero cost to > the local state jurisdictions or the individual. State jurisdictions > should have no role in education delivery. Nationalization of utilities; a > nationalized system of public transportation. Nationalize pensions. > > In a few words, nationalization of socially necessary means of life, with > zero demand of labor exchange as a precondition for delivery of services. > > As a vision the "national state system" and federal authority - government, > should be barred and prohibited from owning any property, including > military installations. Abolish the stock market; abolish the new non-banking > financial institutions. Heck, abolish the banking system and temporarily > replace it with credit unions and payday loan centers. > > WL. > > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ok, I'll put something together over the next week. Pleasant dreams! > Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:36:40 -0400 > From: l...@panix.com > Subject: Re: [Marxism] American-style > To: rai...@hotmail.com > > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > On 10/17/10 1:12 PM, Glenn Parton wrote: > > > Louis Proyect, > > > > As a newcomer to the list, I have observed so far that there doesn't > > seem to be much general discussion about developing a 21st Century > > American-style Socialism. Should we begin one (in addition to our > > concerns with revolutions elsewhere of course)? The relationship > > between American Progressives and Socialists could be is a starting > > point, and I have a few ideas in this regard, if there is any > > interest? > > Go ahead and start a conversation. This list is fairly permissive and > just about anything goes, as long as I didn't wake up on the wrong side > of bed that day. Just keep your posts within 35,000 bytes. > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/rain51%40hotmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] American-style
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis Proyect, As a newcomer to the list, I have observed so far that there doesn't seem to be much general discussion about developing a 21st Century American-style Socialism. Should we begin one (in addition to our concerns with revolutions elsewhere of course)? The relationship between American Progressives and Socialists could be is a starting point, and I have a few ideas in this regard, if there is any interest? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
