Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == 2009/11/21 S. Artesian: The left in general did not cause the collapse of those first historical attempts. Dogan: Well, this was not my claim. I said that the defeat of first socialist attempts was also the defeat of the left in general. This includes all sections or fractions of the left. However, leftists attacking SU they did not cause the defeat but they contributed to that direction. --- Dogan Göcmen (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) Author of The Adam Smith Problem: Reconciling Human Nature and Society in The Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations, I. B. Tauris, LondonNew York 2007 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, that is correct-- I used that as a lead in to explore the real sources of the collapse. I responded to your other points in the rest of the post. The fundamental question is why did the fSU and its satellites/allies collapse, and collapse when they did? There is either a Marxist analysis, which explains this in terms of internal class relations as impacted by international class relations, or there's. conspiracy theory. I sure we both reject the latter and are more interested in the former in order to avoid a repeat. - Original Message - From: Dogan Gocmen dgn.g...@googlemail.com To: David Schanoes sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The system collapsed, because of Western bankers and economically it couldn't have continued for much longer. Thatcher and Bush both were wary of any revolutionary ruptures in Eastern Europe and the course of events didn't suit their model of how the collapse of Stalinism should have continued. The system was plagued by its contradictions and collapsed, but that *doesn't* mean it wasn't a historic defeat for the Left. Destalinization didn't occur, but an authoritarian, neoliberal capitalism took root. I don't see how the spread of capitalist global hegemony can't been seen as a defeat for the anticapitalist Left. On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Dogan Gocmen dgn.g...@googlemail.comwrote: Dogan: Well, this was not my claim. I said that the defeat of first socialist attempts was also the defeat of the left in general. This includes all sections or fractions of the left. However, leftists attacking SU they did not cause the defeat but they contributed to that direction. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Bhaskar Sunkara wrote: Isn't the first task to reconstitute a relevant Marxist Left in the West to acknowledge the reasons for the historic failures of Marxism and the Left's defeats in the 30s and 60s? No. And that's that. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Artesian wrote, .. why weren't the CP's of the DDR and the fSU able to mobilize workers in those countries to salvage those first historical attempts? Because, perhaps, the CPs in question were responsible for the decay of those attempts? Because the CP's were totally discredited with the workers, and with the overwhelming mass of the population? Artesian is right that the party was certainly discredited with industrial workers whose vote in the 1990 elections went to a right wing block lead by the Christian Democrats and after that to the list of the SPD. Left wing parties still pulled 20% of the vote and were heavily supported by teachers. I think about this whenever I go to leftist conferences and note there are very few steelworkers in attendance but always an abundant supply of public school employees. Does this count as working class involvement in America's struggling revolutionary movement? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I imagine that others must have had thoughts such as these, but I’ve not seen much sign of them in the triumphalism that has greeted the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Wall. Louis, thank you for this post. Well, I did not celebrate the 20th anniversary of the fall of Berlin wall. And I did not pay much attention to the rubbish Zizek circulated. He is a good example for the confused masochist so-called new-left detached from working classes. The fall of Berlin wall signifies the defeat of the left in general independently from whether one supported Soviet block or not. In Germany the agents of bourgeoisie celebrated their freedom as 20 years ago. Their freedom is our/working classes' slavery. The 20th anniversary should be the year of reflection on why the left in general failed to save those first historical attempts toward socialism. GDR and Soviet Union were the guarantor of international peace. They failed and we are facing the threat of a new imperialist war and colonisation of underdeveloped kept countries. -- Dogan Göcmen (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) Author of The Adam Smith Problem: Reconciling Human Nature and Society in The Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations, I. B. Tauris, LondonNew York 2007 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Come back Karl
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The fact that the western capitalist powers celebrated the fall of the Berlin Wall as a vindication does not, in itself, prove it was a defeat for the Left or much of anything else. They also celebrated the defeat of the apartheid system they supported in South Africa as a vindication of their way of life. They are fantasy merchants, and we can't base any analysis on that. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
