Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Nestor Gorojovsky wrote: > Paddy Apling escribió: > >> Because of his first paragraphs, I will excuse Nestor for the last paragraph >> quoted above, because he has no experience of war > > Well, not of inter-imperialist war. That´s true. > > I know Paddy has that experience, so that I will refrain from any answer. > > But please remember, Paddy, that in my own country and in Latin America > in general, the limits between peace and war can be hazy from time to time. > I would also think that being a resident of Argentina you, Nestor, have experience of the class war (in the literal sense of the word) that by comparison makes the experience of most of us who live in the countries east and west of the North Atlantic fade into insignificance. Einde O'Callaghan YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Paddy Apling escribió: > Because of his first paragraphs, I will excuse Nestor for the last paragraph > quoted above, because he has no experience of war Well, not of inter-imperialist war. That´s true. I know Paddy has that experience, so that I will refrain from any answer. But please remember, Paddy, that in my own country and in Latin America in general, the limits between peace and war can be hazy from time to time. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
For the truth about the Pearl Harbour stitch up read "Day of Deceit" by Robert B Stinnet George Anthony YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
The Battle of El Alamein was a side show But important for Churchill and the reason he joined the war on the side of progress, to save the British Empire After all the Germans had colonies in Africa that had been lost after WW1 Chamberlain was an appeaser and the British ruling class was riddled with them, seeing Hitler's method of dealing with the organised working class as their ideal Mosley had considerable support in East London William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw) was a councillor in Shoreditch George Anthony NB Antony Beevor's book on Stalingrad showed only grudging respect for the intelligence and bravery displayed by Soviet troops, men and women What can you expect, he had been an officer in the 11th Hussars I was a National Serviceman in the Third Hussars, where the officers were either nitwits or maniacs George Anthony YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Me: >>> Alright, "expropriate" what? This was a discussion about rape of women. >Exactly what does the proletariat have a right to "expropriate?" > >Is this all in my head, or do we have a different idea of what constitutes >"property?" <<< > >- Jeff Your direct response (below) totally misses my point, and thus PROVES my point in a way I could hardly have done myself! - Jeff WL2:(Intentionally NOT clipped) >This is what was stated: > >"Germany should have been liberated of an equivalent value equal to that >in which she >took from the Soviet workers as war aggressors. The German army was not >filled with capitalist but workers." > >EQUIVALENT VALUE EQUAL TO . . . . is what was acceptable payment for >crimes against the Soviet people. One does not have to demand reparations but to >demand such is not wrong morally or politically. > >From time to time the issue of reparations to blacks in America - because >of slavery, is raised and discussed. Generally, I do not weigh in on this >issues because I do not advocate reparations in this instance. If anything >reparations would be North to the South under proletarian rule. In the North >a different solution would be formulated. However, those Marxists that >support reparations "for blacks" are not "politically wrong." Or morally wrong. > >I do believe such advocacy by Marxists is a view of American history with >a Northern bias. > >On the issue of reparations and the unequal treaty of the US government >with the Indian nations, I tend toward strong support for reparations and >ending the unequal treaties as immediate and long term payment for historical >crimes. > >The Soviets did not loot Germany. > >It was the German fascist that did the looting. > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
"Please comrades, learn some deep appreciation of what the world suffered from fascism and forget arguing about what might have been if some of the political struggles in the Soviet Union had concluded differently. The Soviet Union survived the greatest war in history - and saved us all." Dear Paddy, thank you very much for your thoughtfull contribution. --- Dogan Göcmen (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) Author of The Adam Smith Problem: Reconciling Human Nature and Society in The Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations, I. B. Tauris, London&New York 2007 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
waistli...@aol.com wrote: The Soviet armed forces should have not “looted� Germany? Why not? Why should Germany not have been “looted?� To save the German workers? Germany should have been liberated of an equivalent value equal to that in which she took from the Soviet workers as war aggressors. The German army was not filled with capitalist but workers. It is a fact that some Soviet tanks had to throw ammunition over board to fill tanks with “loot.� I do not think this act of “looting� - taking back by force of arms an equal value destroyed by the German fascists, is because of the Patriotic nature of the propaganda campaign to rally the people of the Soviet Union. I believe this was called justice by the men of the Soviet Army and the party was complicit in these actions. Whatever this position represents it has nothing in common with the politics of Lenin, the Bolsheviks or the early Comintern. During the first World War Lenin and the Bolsheviks demanded a peace without reparations or annexations. The Comintern (and teh KPD) opposed the Versailles Treatey among other reasons because it demanded reparations from Germany (i.e. from the whole German people, even though it was the German ruling class that was responsible for taking Germany into teh war) and because a weakening of German industry by removing whole factories also meant a weakening of the German proletariat. After 1945 the Soviet Union annexed those parts of Poland it had occupied under the Hitler-Stalin Pact in 1939 and "compensated" Polant by giving it an equivalent area of eastern Germany. The removal of factories was a form of reparations - which did indeed weaken the proletariat in the Soviet Zone and set back industry there by about a decade - the British, French and American zones were not subjected to reparations at all (although the French did initially want them and did take over control of Saarland with its coalfields for 10 years). All in all, these policies seem to have little in common with the communism of Lenin, the Bolsheviks and the early Comintern. One final comment, many of the factories dismantled weren't (or indeed couldn't) be reconstructed within the USSR and it simply rotted or rusted. And in one respect the former Soviet Zone (later the GDR) still hasn't recovered - on many sections of the railway system where there had been two sets of tracks (one in each direction) one set was removed and sent to the USSR. Very few of these tracks were ever replaced in GDR times and some of them have still not been replaced today although on those parts of the railway system that haven't been closed down (in the run-up to privatisation) there has been major investment since German reunification. Einde O'Callaghan YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
At 14:13 05/08/09 EDT, WL2 wrote: >The Soviet armed forces should have not "looted" Germany? Why not? Well lots of reasons why not. But more importantly, this was a discussion about mass RAPE, which you address in terms of LOOTING = stealing PROPERTY. Did I get that right?? Your "old Indian story" makes the same equivalence: >"Why should another teepee for the violator be provided? Are we to also to >hunt the buffalo to feed him; bring him fresh water and another women Does anyone see a difference between bringing a needy person (rightly or wrongly) a teepee, buffalo meat, fresh water, and a WOMAN?? >The Soviets did not loot Germany. Expropriation of the fascist classes and >supporters was not an act of looting. The capitalist and fascists loot. The > proletariat expropriate. Alright, "expropriate" what? This was a discussion about rape of women. Exactly what does the proletariat have a right to "expropriate?" Is this all in my head, or do we have a different idea of what constitutes "property?" - Jeff YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Nestor Gorojovsky wrote: > Dogan Gocmen escribió: >> To claim that there was a mass rape of women of all age would require to >> show evidence and further qualification. Was is it for example an >> intentional act or a spontaneous act. That there were rapes of German women >> is known and people from east Germany say that. And this is surely not to >> deny. But if claim is made that is was intentionally and consciously >> organised to take revenge on German people this must be shown by evidences. >> > > The below goes for loot also: > > I have NOT stated that mass rape was "intentionally and consciously > organized to take revenge on German people". I haven´t even stated that > there was "a mass rape of women of all age". We agree in that there WAS > a wave of rapes. Period. This is enough. > > Had the war been waged as a war for the extension of socialism, officers > on the field, and every soldier to the last, would have had strict > political orders to repress rapists on the spot. Shootings included, if > necessary. It is politics that leads war, not the other way round. > > They did not have them. It is me who challenges you to produce evidence > to the contrary. > If I recall correctly, during the Russian Civil War, i.e. when the Red Army was under the political leadership of Trotsky, rape was strictly forbidden and harshly punished - up to and including the death penalty. Enforcing this was one of teh roles of the political commissars. When political commissars neglected their duties they were also subject to the harshest penalties - also including the death penalty. By 1945 this was no longer the case - I've come across no reports of soldiers who raped German women being punished for doing so. I've already quoted the article by Ilya Ehrenburg, one of the major propagandists in the Soviet war effort, where he describes Germans as "animals" - not Nazi Germans, not upper-class Germans, but all Germans. This isn't an example of internationalism - and when you describe your enemies as animals then treating them (or their wives, sisters, mothers and daughters) as sub-humans is almost inevitable - and rape (which has a lot to do with power and very little to do with sex as such) is a common consequence. Einde O'Callaghan YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape (Soldiers and socialism)
Nestor wrote: >Had the war been waged as a war for >the extension of socialism, >officers on the field, and every soldier >to the last, would have had strict >political orders to repress rapists >on the spot. Shootings included, if >necessary. It is politics that leads >war, not the other way round. > Nestor is absolutely right that the Red Army and the Soviet government bear the responsibility for the criminal acts committed by their soldiers in the field. We must also bear in mind though that while politics always aspires to lead war, it is not always the case. The Red soldiers, sailors and workers that stormed the Winter Palace were definitely fighting for socialism. It is also true that when the comrades discovered the vast wine cellars a good many of them were drunk off their butt for about two days before order and discipline were restored. It is evident to me that the order and discipline of the Soviet Army regarding looting and rape dissolved when they hit German territory. I believe the top leadership on the spot, political and military lost control and the atrocities ensued. It was an unbelievably savage zone of conflict at the end of an unbelievably savage campaign. In 1945 Soviet soldiers captured by the Germans were beaten to death on the spot with the small shovels (entrenching tool) carried by infantrymen. Once again, the tenet of the totalitarian school believes that the evil dictatorship has such overwhelming social control that everything done must be according to an official directive. The top Soviet priority in the spring of 1945 was to finish off the Nazis as quickly as possible and everythng else became secondary. This was tragic for German civilians and a political disaster when the Soviets had to then construct an regime in East Germany founded on the premise of eternal friensdship between the German and Soviet peoples. The security services on the ground knew this which is why they were sending those anguished reports. Does this imply that mass rape was an organized goal of Stavka and the Politburo? Mark has so contended and the evidence does not support him. Could it just be that there were many other instances in Soviet history when the party and the government were responding to events as they imperfectly understood them and, in essence, lost control of situations they were essentially reacting to? Was everything in the Stalin era a cynical ploy by people without commitment to anything other than their own murderous hold on power? This is an open historical question and one which is at the heart of Mark's vehemence toward other comrades on this list. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Well, I never thought I'd say this, making a political justification for mass rape is probably preferable to defending it by pretending it never happened. All of this came from the politics, from how the Soviets chose to regard the Germans...as nationally subhuman and beast.. On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:13 PM, wrote: > But if the Soviet Union had NOT waged the war as a "National", > "Patriotic", war, every unit to the last soldier would have known that > their duty once they crossed the border was to GAIN THE GERMAN PEOPLE, > AND ITS WORKING CLASS, for socialism. Massive rape and loot, on our > side, the side of socialists, cannot be understood on strictly military > (loss of discipline) terms but also on POLITICAL terms. > > On these terms, the results of the way in which Stalin waged the war > (once he recovered from the mistakes that had previously taken Nazis to > power in Berlin) were not exactly the best ones for socialism as a > global enterprise. > > This does not mean Satanizing Stalin or the USSR. But we should accept > that on the POLITICAL side, the war was waged as a war of revenge > against the German people not as a war of liberation from Fascism AND > capitalism. > > > Comment > > The Soviet armed forces should have not “looted” Germany? Why not? Why > should Germany not have been “looted?” To save the German workers? Germany > should have been liberated of an equivalent value equal to that in which she > took from the Soviet workers as war aggressors. The German army was not > filled with capitalist but workers. > > It is a fact that some Soviet tanks had to throw ammunition over board to > fill tanks with “loot.” I do not think this act of “looting” - taking back > by force of arms an equal value destroyed by the German fascists, is > because of the Patriotic nature of the propaganda campaign to rally the > people > of the Soviet Union. I believe this was called justice by the men of the > Soviet Army and the party was complicit in these actions. > > An old Indian story is in order. I leave my teepee to hunt or hang out with > the fellows, only to return and discover my wife has been brutalized and > murdered, my personal belonging taken and teepee ruined. We hunt down the > violator in his community. Their community chief says, “we should not exact > revenge but build this man a teepee and imprison him so as to rehabilitate > him and return him to the tribe.” > > I say, “I do not understand your meaning. I am here because he called for > me to take his teepee and deny him the wind. I come to honor his call. > > “Why should another teepee for the violator be provided? Are we to also to > hunt the buffalo to feed him; bring him fresh water and another women and > divert our human labor towards his protection. Why would we station men to > watch him from moon to moon? Are we to also to give him our finest horse to > run with the wind, rather than deny him the wind? Why should we try to > perform mystery and make him one of us when he clearly is not? What is the > purpose? Why do you seek to protect him and stop his call from being > answered? ” > > > The community chief says, “we should not seek revenge for wrong inflicted > against us, but seek forgiveness and class brotherhood.” > > I say, “what is the meaning of ‘revenge?’ I do not understand the meaning > of class with one who has murdered my wife and words of those who protect > this taker of life. Clearly this one that has killed my wife and taken my > personal things does not deserve anything other than one arrow. The call must > be answered.” > > “No brother, we must teach him and rehabilitate him.” > > I look at my other brothers, hunch my shoulder’s and say, “then it shall > be many arrows shot and half your women murdered, to answer your call. Then > you will provide us with tepees, fresh water; guard us from other, hunt the > buffalo for us and bring us new women to speak with. Your ways are strange > indeed. ” > > The Soviets did not loot Germany. Expropriation of the fascist classes and > supporters was not an act of looting. The capitalist and fascists loot. The > proletariat expropriate. > > II. > > Rape - mass rape, may have taken place. In fact, I personally believe this > did take place. Massive rape took place as an act of revenge and > humiliation of “the German.” > > On the political side the war was waged as a war to defeat the fascist > aggressors. It was a patriotic war against capitalist fascism. It was the duty > of all to defend the motherland of socialism. Those who hated socialism > were called upon to defend the motherland of socialism in the basis of > defending the motherland. > > I have never understood the objection to this patriotic call. > > The weakness was on the ideological side in respect to rape. Revenge was > dished out. The fascist understood that their actions would drive men insane > but this did not prevent them from attacking and killing everything in > their way.
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
But if the Soviet Union had NOT waged the war as a "National", "Patriotic", war, every unit to the last soldier would have known that their duty once they crossed the border was to GAIN THE GERMAN PEOPLE, AND ITS WORKING CLASS, for socialism. Massive rape and loot, on our side, the side of socialists, cannot be understood on strictly military (loss of discipline) terms but also on POLITICAL terms. On these terms, the results of the way in which Stalin waged the war (once he recovered from the mistakes that had previously taken Nazis to power in Berlin) were not exactly the best ones for socialism as a global enterprise. This does not mean Satanizing Stalin or the USSR. But we should accept that on the POLITICAL side, the war was waged as a war of revenge against the German people not as a war of liberation from Fascism AND capitalism. Comment The Soviet armed forces should have not “looted” Germany? Why not? Why should Germany not have been “looted?” To save the German workers? Germany should have been liberated of an equivalent value equal to that in which she took from the Soviet workers as war aggressors. The German army was not filled with capitalist but workers. It is a fact that some Soviet tanks had to throw ammunition over board to fill tanks with “loot.” I do not think this act of “looting” - taking back by force of arms an equal value destroyed by the German fascists, is because of the Patriotic nature of the propaganda campaign to rally the people of the Soviet Union. I believe this was called justice by the men of the Soviet Army and the party was complicit in these actions. An old Indian story is in order. I leave my teepee to hunt or hang out with the fellows, only to return and discover my wife has been brutalized and murdered, my personal belonging taken and teepee ruined. We hunt down the violator in his community. Their community chief says, “we should not exact revenge but build this man a teepee and imprison him so as to rehabilitate him and return him to the tribe.” I say, “I do not understand your meaning. I am here because he called for me to take his teepee and deny him the wind. I come to honor his call. “Why should another teepee for the violator be provided? Are we to also to hunt the buffalo to feed him; bring him fresh water and another women and divert our human labor towards his protection. Why would we station men to watch him from moon to moon? Are we to also to give him our finest horse to run with the wind, rather than deny him the wind? Why should we try to perform mystery and make him one of us when he clearly is not? What is the purpose? Why do you seek to protect him and stop his call from being answered? ” The community chief says, “we should not seek revenge for wrong inflicted against us, but seek forgiveness and class brotherhood.” I say, “what is the meaning of ‘revenge?’ I do not understand the meaning of class with one who has murdered my wife and words of those who protect this taker of life. Clearly this one that has killed my wife and taken my personal things does not deserve anything other than one arrow. The call must be answered.” “No brother, we must teach him and rehabilitate him.” I look at my other brothers, hunch my shoulder’s and say, “then it shall be many arrows shot and half your women murdered, to answer your call. Then you will provide us with tepees, fresh water; guard us from other, hunt the buffalo for us and bring us new women to speak with. Your ways are strange indeed. ” The Soviets did not loot Germany. Expropriation of the fascist classes and supporters was not an act of looting. The capitalist and fascists loot. The proletariat expropriate. II. Rape - mass rape, may have taken place. In fact, I personally believe this did take place. Massive rape took place as an act of revenge and humiliation of “the German.” On the political side the war was waged as a war to defeat the fascist aggressors. It was a patriotic war against capitalist fascism. It was the duty of all to defend the motherland of socialism. Those who hated socialism were called upon to defend the motherland of socialism in the basis of defending the motherland. I have never understood the objection to this patriotic call. The weakness was on the ideological side in respect to rape. Revenge was dished out. The fascist understood that their actions would drive men insane but this did not prevent them from attacking and killing everything in their way. Thus, the fascist hurt us twice with one blow. Many of the returning soldiers also raped Soviet wives after their return. There is no deed to low for fascists aggressors. The fascist understood what they were doing to drive men insane and revealed their intensions in promising the German masses “French wine, Polish hams and Slavic slave women.” Their propaganda w
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Thank you! > A rough translation of the content: > This is a description of what leadership of the Red Army did against rapes. > It says that the leadership first tried to stop the rape of German women. > But with little success. Then since early autumn 1945 the punishment could > take an arrest of many days up to some years of punishment camp. If the rape > lead to the death of the victim the person concerned was shot death. In 1949 > presidium of the highest Soviets determined measures to be taken against > people committing rape: 10 to 15 or 10 to 20 years of punishment camp > depending on the case. > > This clearly shows that rapes were even not tolerated. > > Dogan Göcmen > (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
"This does not mean Satanizing Stalin or the USSR. But we should accept that on the POLITICAL side, the war was waged as a war of revenge against the German people not as a war of liberation from Fascism AND capitalism." Everything you say is accepted except the point above. I want to see evidences for this. I recall a speech made by Stalin, I believe in 1941, addressed to the Red Army that Soviet Union is not fighting against German people but against fascism. Show me a similar speech by Western leaders. After the war allies agreed that to root out fascism in Germany the industry must be socialised. Western allies were the forces to hinder this in West Germany. There is no one single bombing of German cities by the Soviet Union when it was clear that the war was won. Western allies especially USA continued to do so (see Leipzig and Hamburg for example). To claim that there was a mass rape of women of all age would require to show evidence and further qualification. Was is it for example an intentional act or a spontaneous act. That there were rapes of German women is known and people from east Germany say that. And this is surely not to deny. But if claim is made that is was intentionally and consciously organised to take revenge on German people this must be shown by evidences. -- Dogan Göcmen (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) Author of The Adam Smith Problem: Reconciling Human Nature and Society in The Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations, I. B. Tauris, London&New York 2007 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
sobuadha...@hushmail.com> wrote of me "I get it now. You really hate the Stalin and the USSR and these two terms are essentially the same thing." You don't like the message, so you tell yourself fairy tales about the messenger. Amazing. ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Totalitarianism and Mass Rape
Mark wrote: >Anybody who cares to examine the facts >knows that Stalin's "Great Patriotic War" >was not waged with internationalist >principles and the official policy of the >USSR unleashed a war against German >civilians. The terror was imposed >with the institutionally sanctioned >mass rape of German females of all ages. > I get it now. You really hate the Stalin and the USSR and these two terms are essentially the same thing. I keep forgetting that totalitarian regimes are the malignant extension of a totalitarian dictator whose cynicism and brutality animates every aspect of life as well as public policy. I am still unclear as to "the facts" behind your analysis. Where do they reside? With the avalanche of documents available from former Soviet archives it should be easy to demonstrate that the Soviets planned and executed the mass rape of millions of German females of all ages. If you have done research on this I would be most interested in your findings and in particular which agency did the operational planning, how was this atrocity organized and for how long a period of time. If, on the other hand your polemical zeal is in advance of your research may I suggest you read some literature on the subject starting with "Red Storm on the Reich' by the British military historian Christopher Duffy. In this work Duffy pays a great deal attention to the breakdown in the order and discipline of the Soviet Army once it crossed into German territory. According to Duffy this breakdown alarmed Soviet officers because it degraded the military capacity of their units. For example, tanks were so full of looted goods that they could not carry their full load of ammunition. The archival documents I am aware of do talk about rape and these reports from the security services were also alarmed and highly critical of this activity. I believe there was a wide spread breakdown of discipline in Soviet forces as they drove to Berlin an this is readily seen in early works such as "The Last Battle" by Cornelius Ryan. In that book Ryan depicts a range of actions by Soviet units with some maintaining their discipline and others not. All the accounts of the fall of Berlin I have read describe a frenzy of looting and rape for around two days after the final defeat of the Nazis followed by the Red Army bringing order to the city and dispensing food to civilians. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
