Re: [Marxism] Words-Cuban economy
Nada wrote: >I think we ought not to get into a debate >on the class nature of Cuban society Please note that I said absolutely nothing abut the class nature of Cuba >... no one thinks that Havana ought to become >the second city of Ford Motor Company or be the >biggest producer of industrial productions... >...if there is a different model for socialism, >that avoids the huge social and environmental >dislocations caused by industrialization, >please speak up on this too, There can also be a heavy environmental cost by retaining a dependance on large scale sugar cane production. In the case of Cuba it was a degree of deforestation in order to increase the acerage under cultivation. I am sure there are some people on this list who participated in the goal of harvesting more cane in order to boast the tonnage of sugar being exported. Maintaining an economy based on the production of commodities (without a cartel to set prices) usually results in a fluctuating income from exports chasing ever increasing prices for manufactured imports. This is what I meant by the classic formula for under development. In the Cuban example all the heroic exammples to dramatically increase sugar cane production still had to contend with an international commodities market where increased production is rewarded by falling prices. The barter system the Cubans established with the Soviets and Eastern Europe kept them in oil but also tied them to buying certain manufactured goods that did not meet their needs and thus did not help in the developing an economy to fulfill socialist objectives. I agree there must be changes in the conception of economic development so that it is more and more sustainable by being less and less wasteful and environmentally damaging. This does not automatically result from rejecting manufacturing in favor of retaining an overwhelming dependence on agricultural commodities for export. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Words (Cuban economy)
If Cuba pursued an industrial development plan it would have ended up looking more like Albania than Japan. Socialism in one country is impossible, I don't see anything wrong with Cuba's general economic policy. (and actually I'm a fan of the term "bureaucratic collectivist") On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 4:09 PM, nada wrote: > > Industrialization to some degree is important or you remain poor, a few > steps away from barbarism. If you combine a socialist mode of production > with a world wide divisions of labor, the *need* to "Industrialize on > One Island" goes away. Ideally... "ideally" this is what COMECON > was supposed to represent...a non-capitalist zone of development with a > international, yet equal division of labor. This is still a kind of > model to follow. If something is wrong with it, do speak up. For that > matter, if there is a different model for socialism, that avoids the > huge social and environmental dislocations caused by industrialization, > please speak up on this too, please. Sterile denunciations of the > development of the productive forces is hardly...productive, especially > on a *Marxist* list. > > DW > > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/bhaskar.sunkara%40gmail.com > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Words (Cuban economy)
Japan. --- On Sat, 8/22/09, Bhaskar Sunkara wrote: > From: Bhaskar Sunkara > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Words (Cuban economy) > To: "Steve Palmer" > Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 12:57 PM > When has autarkic state capitalism > ever been a formula to > *solve*underdevelopment? > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, > wrote: > > > Tom Cod wrote: > > > > >Hey, how much heavy industry is there in > Cuba. Don't they still > > >rely on their traditional natural resource: > sugar? > > > > > The answer is yes, to Cuba's detriment. > > Cuba's top exports are: > > Sugar and honey 53% > > Nickel 23% > > Fish > 6.8% > > Tobacco 5.6% > > > > and they import oil, food, machinery, chemicals. > > > > Fidel once remarked that although Cuba faced > > a severe challenge with the fall of the Soviet > > bloc, at least they didn't have to buy all the > > crap Bulgarian machinery they were obligated to > > formerly. I am not sure where they buy their > > machine tools and trucks from now but these > > figures would seem to indicate the classic > > formula for third world economic > > under development. > > > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a > message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/spalmer999%40yahoo.com > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Words (Cuban economy)
I think we ought not to get into a debate on the class nature of Cuban society here on this list. It simply won't work, IMHO. But...there are all sorts of "industrializations" and no one thinks that Havana ought to become the second city of Ford Motor Company or be the biggest producer of industrial productions. This misses the whole point of of industrialization and the development of productive forces. Who argues that Cuba could, regardless of it's political state, should/could/would become some sort of socialist society with all the forces of production necessary to achieve a standard of living (defined anyway you want) or quality of life higher than that of the Imperialist metropolis? Really, anyone? Industrialization to some degree is important or you remain poor, a few steps away from barbarism. If you combine a socialist mode of production with a world wide divisions of labor, the *need* to "Industrialize on One Island" goes away. Ideally... "ideally" this is what COMECON was supposed to represent...a non-capitalist zone of development with a international, yet equal division of labor. This is still a kind of model to follow. If something is wrong with it, do speak up. For that matter, if there is a different model for socialism, that avoids the huge social and environmental dislocations caused by industrialization, please speak up on this too, please. Sterile denunciations of the development of the productive forces is hardly...productive, especially on a *Marxist* list. DW YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Words (Cuban economy)
When has autarkic state capitalism ever been a formula to *solve*underdevelopment? On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, wrote: > Tom Cod wrote: > > >Hey, how much heavy industry is there in Cuba. Don't they still > >rely on their traditional natural resource: sugar? > > > The answer is yes, to Cuba's detriment. > Cuba's top exports are: > Sugar and honey 53% > Nickel 23% > Fish 6.8% > Tobacco 5.6% > > and they import oil, food, machinery, chemicals. > > Fidel once remarked that although Cuba faced > a severe challenge with the fall of the Soviet > bloc, at least they didn't have to buy all the > crap Bulgarian machinery they were obligated to > formerly. I am not sure where they buy their > machine tools and trucks from now but these > figures would seem to indicate the classic > formula for third world economic > under development. > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Words (Cuban economy)
Tom Cod wrote: >Hey, how much heavy industry is there in Cuba. Don't they still >rely on their traditional natural resource: sugar? > The answer is yes, to Cuba's detriment. Cuba's top exports are: Sugar and honey 53% Nickel 23% Fish 6.8% Tobacco 5.6% and they import oil, food, machinery, chemicals. Fidel once remarked that although Cuba faced a severe challenge with the fall of the Soviet bloc, at least they didn't have to buy all the crap Bulgarian machinery they were obligated to formerly. I am not sure where they buy their machine tools and trucks from now but these figures would seem to indicate the classic formula for third world economic under development. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
