Re: [Marxism] First things first [Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]

2010-10-13 Thread Shane Mage
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On Oct 13, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Nestor Gorojovsky wrote:

 This answer must always be an, er, one-sided single answer in a
 particular sense. Vladimir Lenin...did not question himself
 whether the German people would rise, as he expected. He did what he  
 had
 to do. First things first: revolt Russia and then hope the Germans
 revolt as forecasted.

On the contrary--the dispute over Brest-Litovsk between Lenin and  
Trotsky centered on whether the German people would rise and so  
whether or not to sign the diktat.  Lenin was right.  Then two and a  
half years later The same sort of issue came back between Lenin and  
Trotsky.  This time Lenin thought that the Polish people would rise if  
the Red Army marched on Warsaw and so it was wrong to sigh the  
favorable peace then on offer.  Trotsky disagreed and he was right (if  
Stalin had not deliberately sabotaged the campaign the defeat would  
still have occurred but it would have been less of a disaster than it  
was).  In neither case was it a matter of first things first'--it was  
a matter of dealing with a complex situation in its full complexity  
and no simplistic solutions were apparent at the time.  Which, in  
revolution, is always the case (Bukharin, who Lenin said never  
understood the dialectic, had a simple approach--toujours l'audace!).

Shane Mage


Thunderbolt steers all things. Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64






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Re: [Marxism] First things first [Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]

2010-10-13 Thread Manuel Barrera
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Nestor states : After a long tirade where he explains that without workers´ 
control of revolution a joint Latin American anti-imperialist army would be a
 national-bourgeois outfit, Manuel Barrera ends a posting with these wise words 
. . .nor does such  non-linear development justify revolutionists putting 
'first things first.'. . . In Latin America, at least the way I see it, the 
idea is Let the unification process advance, at the fastest pace we can force 
it to 
 adopt. Confrontation with imperialism will bring about all those  socialist 
tendencies Manuel is asking for. First things first, that´s the politician´s 
obsession, which, translated  to Latin American terms means Unity, unity, 
unity first and foremost.  I don´t care who leads it, who performs it, what do 
they think or want. I have the greatest confidence in imperialism and in the 
Latin American  masses. I am certain that if we socialists push the whole thing 
ahead we 
 shall create the scenario that will bring us to the leading positions. If our 
 unification becomes strong enough, confrontation with 
 imperialists and ther local Quislings will be inevitable. And in that  
 confrontation, as a revolutionary socialist that I am I trust socialism  will 
 prove the single reasonable way for us to win.
Well, it wasn't meant to be a tirade. Rather, it was meant simply to remind and 
establish that social revolution against capitalism, and imperialism in 
particular, is about ending drive for conquest and militarization. We do not 
wish to go to war because it will be our sisters and brothers whom we will be 
fighting (regardless whether they try to kill us, those workers, peasants, and 
oppressed masses who join imperialist and national armies remain part of our 
class and whom we wish for them to join us in solidarity). I agree, Nestor, 
that unifying América Latina is an indispensable task, and outcome, of 
socialist (in contrast to social) revolution. However, I do not see how 
militarization is just another way of realizing this task. After all, no 
nation-state was ever formed devoid of a class struggle and a specific outcome 
of power. The formation of an army--an armed body of men reflecting the 
State--neither happens in a vacuum nor without a history of class conflict and 
struggle. My question is simple. Does the formation of an anti-imperialist 
army by Bolivia and others (Venezuela, Brazil, Ecuador?) reflect the conquest 
of working class power and the establishment of a workers, peasants, and 
indigenous government? Or is what is being proposed, in essence, seeking to 
bootstrap that concrete struggle by creating an armed body of a state we Hope 
to be such a government, but which it is not exactly clear at this time? 


Anyone who knows me well will know that I have no problem peakin' eh faight 
with the imperialist bullies of the world. I just am interested in being Damn 
sure that it is a William Wallace that is doing the pickin' and not the 
Scottish nobles pretending to do so.


And, of course, you are correct, Nestor, this issue is not a game for 
scholastic strategists, but a deadly serious one whose aim must always be the 
socialist revolution. But a revolution is not an armed struggle (I do apologize 
for stating such an obvious point to us here), especially not one directed at 
conquest. My questions are strategic and serious. Please do not interpret them 
as rhetorical or for purpose of meaningless scholastic debate. If there is a 
mass movement of workers and the oppressed upon which such an anti-imperialist 
army is based, I will be the first to support it (I do not believe it is my 
place to join it, but to continue the fight where I am as best I can). I simply 
am incredulous that the ongoing machinations of Morales, Chavez, or even of 
Correa, constitute such a mass movement, which I define as clear and definitive 
mobilization posing the dissolution of capitalist rule rather than the 
emergence of leftist governments promising as they may be. Please understand 
that I have seen too many revolutionary politicians who profess socialism but 
engage in capitalist oppression and too many honest activist/revolutionists 
sucked into believing that they are making revolution either within or 
without the mass movement (inclusive of my hero and historical mentor, El Che). 
By all means, prove to me that my appraisal of the state of the Latin American 
revolution is incorrect and why the establishment of an armed body of men 
[sic] is currently the natural next step in the international working class's 
strategic march to power and liberation (regardless, whether it is the first 
thing that needs to be put first).

Manuel