Re: [Marxism] National armies in Latin America (please, Mark L, help) [was Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]

2010-10-14 Thread Nestor Gorojovsky
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El 14/10/2010 11:33 a.m., Manuel Barrera escribió:
 such an anti-imperialist army derived out of the mobilization of
 the working masses of Latin America would not only be feared by U.S.
 capitalist (and welcomed by the conscious and awakening masses of the
 U.S.), but would be a formidable defense against the perpetrators of
 war and plunder. It just seems that there are a few steps that need
 to be taken to realize this.

The last sentence is the SINGLE reason why I insist on first things 
first. And yes, such an army would be the starting point or one of the 
starting points for an army to end all armies...



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Re: [Marxism] National armies in Latin America (please, Mark L, help) [was Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]

2010-10-13 Thread Kenneth Morgan
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On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 Maybe the Prussian/German model would fit this Latin American scenario
 better

 I would say the allied command structure during World War II might be a
model. Different national armies under a central command structure. On an
unrelated note, my readings of World War II indicates that the majority of
axis troops, German and Italian, killed by the 45th Infantry Division was
after they had surrendered.

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Re: [Marxism] National armies in Latin America (please, Mark L, help) [was Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]

2010-10-13 Thread S. Artesian
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The Prussian-German model was the model [sometimes fused with some elements 
of French military organization]that was indeed adapted by some Latin 
American countries in the late 19th and early 20the centuries.


- Original Message - 
From: Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com 



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Re: [Marxism] National armies in Latin America (please, Mark L, help) [was Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]

2010-10-13 Thread Néstor Gorojovsky
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2010/10/13 Manuel Barrera mtom...@hotmail.com:
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 Nestor said: Yes, of course, the national army would end serving the ruling 
 class as it always, in the end, does. The question is why do you think that 
 the single class in Latin America that can lead a process of national 
 reunification is the bourgeoisie?


 First, why should we believe that a unified army of Bolivia, Venezuela, et 
 al. constitute an anti-imperialist army? Because Evo says so, or Hugo?

No. Because the USofAm say so. Ask DoD who would they rather fear, a
host of midget impossible armies or a joint army of everyone South
of the Border. It is almost absurd to have to explain this.


Do you believe that a unified army of Bolivia and other Latin American
countries (other than of Cuba, which I consider reflecting a different
class than that of those others) would represent the workers and
oppressed of those unified countries? How would that happen, by
dictate of Morales or by a proletarian revolution and mass
mobilization against both the imperialists and their partners in the
national bourgeoisies?

I believe that such an army could only be the consequence of a
revolutionary victory of the peoples of the South and Central tier of
the Americas against the Northern one. And it would happen by
Permanent REvolution in action.

 Second, I believe, Nestor, that you misunderstand my question regarding an 
 anti-imperialist army and whether I (or others?) believe that the national 
 bourgeois can lead a process of national reunification. Of course not, but 
 these are two different questions.


 Indeed, the national bourgeoisies are united in maintaining their national 
 identifies precisely against a broad unification that would result in the 
 hegemony of the working masses and the oppressed. They (the bourgeois) are 
 only interested in maintaining their rule, so, they are unlikely to seek 
 unification Except to further their rule. The imperialists will support or 
 oppose such unifications depending on whether it serves their class. There 
 really is only one class, the proletariat (in its broad conception of the 
 working masses and their allies), that is capable of promoting 
 internationalist unity, so, no, I do not believe the bourgeoisie to be 
 capable of fostering unity except the unity of dominance by capital over 
 labor.

There is no bourgeoisie worth that name South of the Border. There are
oligarchies, who really want to make everyone believe that there can
exist an Uruguayan, Guatemalan, Bolivian, Argentinean, even Brazilian
INDEPENDENT nation. The bourgeoisies (even the b in S Paulo) are
unable to understand their own historic needs, not to speak of tasks.
And the unification of Latin America is certainly NOT an
internationalist agenda. It is simply to start again where we had
begun 200 years ago: as a unified whole, now with the bridge between
Luso and Castillian Iberoamericans spanned thanks to the force of
acts.



 To conflate these two issues seems to be an evasion of the question whether 
 an anti-imperialist army as proposed here by a bourgeois government albeit 
 led by a leftist leader whose class identity has yet clearly to be defined 
 by its actions and class allegiances as anything but a bourgeois government. 
 Is Evo calling for a different revolutionary army composed of workers, 
 peasants, and indigenos or for a unification of current armies of each state 
 into a single unified anti-imperialist army? If the latter, why would a 
 call by a revolutionist (conceding for the sake of argument the still 
 questionable issue whether Evo is indeed such) to build such an army out of 
 the components of armies that constitute the armed body of the State in their 
 respective countries be anything but reflective of the class nature of the 
 state they  are organized to defend? What exactly are these armed bodies of 
 men doing to defend the working class and its march to power in Bolivia never 
 mind against U.S. imperialism?



I am not used to evade questions. When they deserve an answer. From my
own humble point of view yours brings about nothing, so I don´t feel I
should answer it. Sorry.

 It seems to me that the class nature of the respective leftist governments 
 are still in question and role of Morales, Chavez, or Correa (among others) 
 remain in question, too. There is much promise, and hope, in the 
 anti-imperialist nature of these governments, but they can Never hope to 
 transcend that promise absent a strategic march to end capitalism and the 
 mobilization of the masses to