Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Sharpening class contradictions
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:28:40 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: G'day all, I'd written, Or shall we wrap the old list up and slip her quietly into the dustbin? Well, I think the eloquent silence with which this was greeted can't be ignored. If no-one on the list nominates for the position of list moderator within the week, I shall have to let Hans know Thaxis is sans moderator and, very possibly, sans raison d'etre. That raises the issue lie this once thriving list has seemed to have slipped into senescence and may well be ready to die a natural death. Long time subscribers may recall that this list is a continuation of the old Marxism-2 list which was founded by Lisa Rogers in reaction to the takeover of the original Spoon Collective's Marxism List by Maoists in 1995. About a year later, the Spoon Collective decided to break up its Marxism space into several lists including a Marxism-International List, Marxism-Thaxis, and a Marxism-and- Sciences List, as well as a Marxism-General List, a Marxism- Feminism List and I think a Marxism-News List as well. This situation lasted until 1998 when the Spoon Collective decided that it no longer wished to host any of the Marxism lists and they were spun off to their respective moderators, who generally sought and obtained hosting privelages elsewhere. The fates of these various lists has been quite diverse. One of the then most active lists was the Marxism-International List which was turned over to Louis Godena (who was probably the most articulate and erudite of the Maoists that had originally invaded the old Marxism List back in 1995). For quite a while that list retained its original vitality, until Godena and his co-moderator Adolfo Olaechea began to purge it of various ideological opponents. As a result many of its most active and interesting participants, if not purged, left on their own accord. As a result two new lists were formed, Louis Proyect's Marxmail List, and Doug Henwood's LBO-Talk List both of which continue to thrive to this day. In the mean time other list were formed as well. Jerry Levy who used to be quite active on Thaxis created his own specialized list that is devoted mainly to rather abstruse discussions of value theory. There is also the Progressive Economists List, which retains a certain vitality. So what happened to this list? This one too used to be quite lively, and for a long time it seemed to carry on more or less in the original spirit of the Marxism-2 list but in more recent times, it has become evident that list traffic has gone way down, and the list simply seems rather lifeless now. Why? I suspect the reason is simply that so many of the people who used to participate here are now most active on the other lists that I have mentioned. Levy used to be quite active here. I can't remember when the last time he ever posted here. And the same is true for most of the other former regulars here. Would different moderators have made a difference? Possibly, Proyect for whatever else one might say about him has been quite aggressive about promoting his list with the result that it has several hundred subscribers. The same can be said about Henwood's LBO-Talk, which also had the advantage of being associated with Henwood's well-known (in leftist circles) newsletter Left Business Observer. And there is also the sad example of Marxism-International which continues with no discernable purpose since the only people who post on it now a days is Godena and Olaechea, and then only at very infrequent intervals. On the other hand it may be that there was little that any moderator or group of moderator could have done about this situation. Back when Thaxis was founded there were only a bare handful of Marxist or left-oriented lists in cyberspace, now there are literally dozens if not hundreds of such lists. This is of course a good thing, since it suggests that there has been indeed a revival of interest in Marxism (after having been declared dead and buried in 1991). At the same time this makes it harder for any one list to thrive since there is now so many competing lists to which people can now choose to participate in. Jim F. All the best to all, Rob. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Sharpening class contradictions
Jim F writes re doom gloom scenarios for the list just as the world is regrouping (my brief comments below): That raises the issue lie this once thriving list has seemed to have slipped into senescence and may well be ready to die a natural death. Long time subscribers may recall that this list is a continuation of the old Marxism-2 list which was founded by Lisa Rogers in reaction to the takeover of the original Spoon Collective's Marxism List by Maoists in 1995. About a year later, the Spoon Collective decided to break up its Marxism space into several lists including a Marxism-International List, Marxism-Thaxis, and a Marxism-and- Sciences List, as well as a Marxism-General List, a Marxism- Feminism List and I think a Marxism-News List as well. This situation lasted until 1998 when the Spoon Collective decided that it no longer wished to host any of the Marxism lists and they were spun off to their respective moderators, who generally sought and obtained hosting privelages elsewhere. The fates of these various lists has been quite diverse. One of the then most active lists was the Marxism-International List which was turned over to Louis Godena (who was probably the most articulate and erudite of the Maoists that had originally invaded the old Marxism List back in 1995). For quite a while that list retained its original vitality, until Godena and his co-moderator Adolfo Olaechea began to purge it of various ideological opponents. As a result many of its most active and interesting participants, if not purged, left on their own accord. As a result two new lists were formed, Louis Proyect's Marxmail List, and Doug Henwood's LBO-Talk List both of which continue to thrive to this day. In the mean time other list were formed as well. Jerry Levy who used to be quite active on Thaxis created his own specialized list that is devoted mainly to rather abstruse discussions of value theory. There is also the Progressive Economists List, which retains a certain vitality. So what happened to this list? This one too used to be quite lively, and for a long time it seemed to carry on more or less in the original spirit of the Marxism-2 list but in more recent times, it has become evident that list traffic has gone way down, and the list simply seems rather lifeless now. Why? I suspect the reason is simply that so many of the people who used to participate here are now most active on the other lists that I have mentioned. Levy used to be quite active here. I can't remember when the last time he ever posted here. And the same is true for most of the other former regulars here. Would different moderators have made a difference? Possibly, Proyect for whatever else one might say about him has been quite aggressive about promoting his list with the result that it has several hundred subscribers. The same can be said about Henwood's LBO-Talk, which also had the advantage of being associated with Henwood's well-known (in leftist circles) newsletter Left Business Observer. And there is also the sad example of Marxism-International which continues with no discernable purpose since the only people who post on it now a days is Godena and Olaechea, and then only at very infrequent intervals. On the other hand it may be that there was little that any moderator or group of moderator could have done about this situation. Back when Thaxis was founded there were only a bare handful of Marxist or left-oriented lists in cyberspace, now there are literally dozens if not hundreds of such lists. This is of course a good thing, since it suggests that there has been indeed a revival of interest in Marxism (after having been declared dead and buried in 1991). At the same time this makes it harder for any one list to thrive since there is now so many competing lists to which people can now choose to participate in. Jim F. This to me indicates the polarization of revolutionary activists, to some extent, away from arguing the toss with petrified opponents (such as, to take a dialectical example, Oleachea, who is not just rigid but also squishy and volatile at the same time...) to more targeted activities in real social life. It also indicates a (temporary) hegemony on the Net of arsehole sceptics and opportunists like P and H, who have nothing but borrowed feathers in common with Marxism and even less in common with Marx himself, his thought and deeds. I think we'd be well advised to hang around for a while to see what new wave of participants gets thrown up on the beach in this latest flood tide. Since Henwood throws people out who wax enthusiastic about October 1917, and Proyect has the mobilizing outgoing charisma of a black hole, their sideshows will be about as relevant to world events as today's bagel menu at their favourite deli. What I'd like to see in the meantime is a bit of serious self-criticism from the fence-sitters who were tempted to write off the working-class and its historical power
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Sharpening class contradictions
Revolutionary greetings fellow thaxists, Before everyone heads off, a belated revolutionary new year good wishes to Rob, James, Hugh and Charles and anyone else who's still watching. I agree with Hugh that the virtual demise of this list is a symptom of the healthy revival of class struggles. So we should not be downhearted but rather bloody raving optimists. I have to admit that I have been busy elsewhere, and that the type of discussion that we used to have on this list seems rather pedestrian compared to what is happening with the war on terrorism and the revolution in Argentina. I see Charles popping on some other lists now and then but hardly anyone else. M Thaxis was one of the first lists I joined back in 1995 too. The internet was a good forum for me in those days as we had just split with the LRCI and I was used to having full on debates. But as you would expect when few of us on this list are members of actual left tendencies, once we parted with the raving Maoists these debates basically went nowhere unless others too became active. For that reason I am on more activist lists where the chances of recruiting people to revolutionary Trotskyism is much higher. Most of my internet activity is on Yahoo these days. The ISKRA group was very active for a couple of years but seems to have slowed right down as the situation in Russia has been upstaged by Bush and Cos plan to reconquer the world. The group that is well worth a visit if you are not there right now is Argentina_Solidarity at Yahoo where the events in Argentina right now are being thrashed over. This is the best test for the left for some years. What do you say Hugh? Many of the themes that we talked about a few years back, such as Bolshevism vs Menshevism are now being put to the practical test in Argentina and elsewhere. The tendency for LA trotskyism to default into the patriotic front is a legacy of menshevism. The falling rate of profit, and value analysis, has been overtaken over by the actual TRPF and devaluation of a world depression. Anarchism is also back on the map with the anti-capitalist movement. Both are symptoms of the weakness of the revolutionary left and were totally non-plussed by Bushes war. But we have to be vigilant against anarchism playing the same counter-revolutionary role today that it did in Spain in the 1930's. Not that the revolutionary left came out with flying colours. You may know of Eric Lee who runs LabourStart coming out in favour of the Wests bombing of Afghanistan causing some ructions on his website? A lot of the left tried to form anti- war movements with pacifists and the results were predictable, a first-round victory to Bush where he redefined 'terrorism' to by used against any form of anti-capitalist resistance at home and abroad. In NZ we formed an anti-imperialist coalition with the hard left which came out for the defence of Afghanistan and defeat of the US. So we gained a solid grouping on the left that forms a pole of attraction in the class war against the US imperialist offensive. We are having regular meetings and actions on Argentina, Palelstine etc. So I would say we should bid goodbye to M-Th. When it was good it was very good. But while events are moving far too fast for its membership it serves no useful purpose. Lets all work to make sure we don't have to revive it this side of socialism. Dave B (CWGNZ) On 22 Jan 2002 at 4:28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day all, I'd written, Or shall we wrap the old list up and slip her quietly into the dustbin? Well, I think the eloquent silence with which this was greeted can't be ignored. If no-one on the list nominates for the position of list moderator within the week, I shall have to let Hans know Thaxis is sans moderator and, very possibly, sans raison d'etre. All the best to all, Rob. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Sharpening class contradictions
G'day all, First of all, I fear I may accidentally just have rejected Dave Bedggood's very worthwhile post in a frenzy of rejecting commercial spam. If so, sorry Dave. Feel free to send it again. And a happy new year to you, too, mate. Now, to Hugh, who wrote: This to me indicates the polarization of revolutionary activists, to some extent, away from arguing the toss with petrified opponents (such as, to take a dialectical example, Oleachea, who is not just rigid but also squishy and volatile at the same time...) to more targeted activities in real social life. It also indicates a (temporary) hegemony on the Net of arsehole sceptics and opportunists like P and H, who have nothing but borrowed feathers in common with Marxism and even less in common with Marx himself, his thought and deeds. Skepticism ain't arseholery, Hugh. It's a daily necessity in a dynamic world. I do suspect some people (and many of 'em lefties) like the cut and thrust of personalised arguments and accusations, and that Thaxis lost its currency when most of the louder duellists left (perhaps leaving the list overly dependent on underly engaged moderators, I dunno). What I'd like to see in the meantime is a bit of serious self-criticism from the fence-sitters who were tempted to write off the working-class and its historical power because of the shock to the existing mass and most left class leaderships caused by the capitulation of the Soviet bureaucracy to imperialism. All those writing off Marx and class analysis and the pivotal significance of the October revolution for instance -- what are they thinking now that even good old Dagens Nyheter, the neo-liberal Swedish daily, has informed us that Marx is back in the ring, and you can't discuss world events and developments without him. Oh, the ironies of history! So. Rob, as fence-sitter par excellence -- a comment? I'll admit to some splinters in the buns, Hugh, but not to the traits you accord 'fencesitters'. I never wrote off Marx, class or history. I have my doubts about the continual 'leadership' and 'vanguard' refrains because I can't (in the context of an imaginable reality) sufficiently distinguish between these programmatic verities of yours and the danger of substitutionalism, charismatic saviourism and bureaucratic centralism. I read socialism as practical radical democracy, you see. But we've been there a hundred times, eh? PS My silence is due to personal reasons. They don't stop me thinking, though... Well, I do hope all's well, mate. All the best, Rob. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Sharpening class contradictions
Oh, I see Dave's post did finally get through. Anyway, yesterday I asked Jim Farmelant if he'd be interested in giving moderation a shot, and he has kindly agreed to throw his hat in the ring. I see today that Karl Carlile is prepared to have a go, too. I do think Thaxis has a promisingly varied subscriber base and a tolerably tolerant culture, and that she might be but an engaged moderator away from spluttering to useful life. Bill and I have just had too much on to do the list justice, I think. Anyway, with thanks to Bill, with whom it was a pleasure to comoderate (and discuss rugby league), I anticipate passing on the mod's chair very soon. So what now, gentle comrades? Cheers, Rob. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
