Re: [matplotlib-devel] deprecate and remove original Navigation toolbar?

2012-10-03 Thread Phil Elson 
Good question!

It would certainly be a welcome deprecation from my point of view. There is
a fair amount of overhead maintaining it if you make any changes to the way
backends work (as I have done a couple of times recently).

Depending on feedback here, it is something we could potentially deprecate
in 1.2 and then completely remove by 1.3.

Cheers,




On 2 October 2012 20:13, Eric Firing  wrote:

> Is there any good reason to retain the original NavigationToolbar code
> in the backends, and the corresponding "classic" option in
> rcParams['toolbar']?
>
> Eric
>
>
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Re: [matplotlib-devel] deprecate and remove original Navigation toolbar?

2012-10-03 Thread Michael Droettboom 

+1

On 10/03/2012 04:36 AM, Phil Elson wrote:

Good question!

It would certainly be a welcome deprecation from my point of view. 
There is a fair amount of overhead maintaining it if you make any 
changes to the way backends work (as I have done a couple of times 
recently).


Depending on feedback here, it is something we could potentially 
deprecate in 1.2 and then completely remove by 1.3.


Cheers,




On 2 October 2012 20:13, Eric Firing > wrote:


Is there any good reason to retain the original NavigationToolbar code
in the backends, and the corresponding "classic" option in
rcParams['toolbar']?

Eric


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[matplotlib-devel] MEP11: Attempting to deal with the Python library dependency issue

2012-10-03 Thread Michael Droettboom 
I invite comments for a new MEP about improving the situation with 
respect to our bundling of third-party Python dependencies.


In particular, I'd love feedback from the various stakeholders -- those 
producing binary installers and packages for the various platforms.


https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/wiki/MEP11

Mike
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Re: [matplotlib-devel] MEP11: Attempting to deal with the Python library dependency issue

2012-10-03 Thread Christoph Gohlke 
On 10/3/2012 9:20 AM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
> I invite comments for a new MEP about improving the situation with
> respect to our bundling of third-party Python dependencies.
>
> In particular, I'd love feedback from the various stakeholders -- those
> producing binary installers and packages for the various platforms.
>
> https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/wiki/MEP11
>
> Mike

Hi,

could dateutil, pytz, and pyparsing be made optional dependencies? I 
just tried, all of my own scripts do work without them being installed 
(one line needed to be removed in axes.py 
https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/blob/master/lib/matplotlib/axes.py#L19).
 
Only about 10 of matplotlib's examples fail (after some additional 
changes).

Frankly, I would remove/unbundle all 3rd party Python packages from 
matplotlib and declare them as dependencies for pip and easy_install, 
and of course in the documentation.

I think that matplotlib, the library, should not attempt to work around 
Python's distribution/packaging limitations. Please do not use 
post-install or run-time scripts to detect and install missing 
dependencies.

Concerning end user experience, the scipy-stack project seems like a 
better place to address this.

Optionally, for Windows users that won't touch pip or easy_install (like 
me), matplotlib could provide separate downloads of installers for 
dateutil, pytz, pyparsing, and six. They are trivial to create.

It is also easy to create EGGs or MSIs for matplotlib, which are 
occasionally requested.

Also consider a separate package for the matplotlib tests, which would 
include 35 MB of baseline images that are of little use to end users.

Christoph

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Re: [matplotlib-devel] MEP11: Attempting to deal with the Python library dependency issue

2012-10-03 Thread Chris Barker 
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Christoph Gohlke  wrote:

A bunch of great stuff:

+1 all around

Another use-case is py2exe, py2app, and friends -- at the moment, you
pretty much have to include the whole dang MPL package to get things
to work. Cleaning up some of these dependencies could improve that.

-Chris


> On 10/3/2012 9:20 AM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
>> I invite comments for a new MEP about improving the situation with
>> respect to our bundling of third-party Python dependencies.
>>
>> In particular, I'd love feedback from the various stakeholders -- those
>> producing binary installers and packages for the various platforms.
>>
>> https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/wiki/MEP11
>>
>> Mike
>
> Hi,
>
> could dateutil, pytz, and pyparsing be made optional dependencies? I
> just tried, all of my own scripts do work without them being installed
> (one line needed to be removed in axes.py
> https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/blob/master/lib/matplotlib/axes.py#L19).
> Only about 10 of matplotlib's examples fail (after some additional
> changes).
>
> Frankly, I would remove/unbundle all 3rd party Python packages from
> matplotlib and declare them as dependencies for pip and easy_install,
> and of course in the documentation.
>
> I think that matplotlib, the library, should not attempt to work around
> Python's distribution/packaging limitations. Please do not use
> post-install or run-time scripts to detect and install missing
> dependencies.
>
> Concerning end user experience, the scipy-stack project seems like a
> better place to address this.
>
> Optionally, for Windows users that won't touch pip or easy_install (like
> me), matplotlib could provide separate downloads of installers for
> dateutil, pytz, pyparsing, and six. They are trivial to create.
>
> It is also easy to create EGGs or MSIs for matplotlib, which are
> occasionally requested.
>
> Also consider a separate package for the matplotlib tests, which would
> include 35 MB of baseline images that are of little use to end users.
>
> Christoph
>
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Re: [matplotlib-devel] MEP11: Attempting to deal with the Python library dependency issue

2012-10-03 Thread Damon McDougall 
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Christoph Gohlke  wrote:
> On 10/3/2012 9:20 AM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
>> I invite comments for a new MEP about improving the situation with
>> respect to our bundling of third-party Python dependencies.
>>
>> In particular, I'd love feedback from the various stakeholders -- those
>> producing binary installers and packages for the various platforms.
>>
>> https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/wiki/MEP11
>>
>> Mike

> I think that matplotlib, the library, should not attempt to work around
> Python's distribution/packaging limitations. Please do not use
> post-install or run-time scripts to detect and install missing
> dependencies.

I whole-heartedly agree here. There are package managers for this job.
I understand there are people less package-literate and, as you point
out below, the development team for each separate dependency can ship
a binary. Though I understand not all do this.

> Optionally, for Windows users that won't touch pip or easy_install (like
> me), matplotlib could provide separate downloads of installers for
> dateutil, pytz, pyparsing, and six. They are trivial to create.

> Also consider a separate package for the matplotlib tests, which would
> include 35 MB of baseline images that are of little use to end users.

I agree here, too. I think most people who want to use the library
won't ever run or touch the tests. Heck, I only ever ran the tests
after I started contributing back to the community. Perhaps they
should be spawn off to a matplotlib-tests git submodule that Travis
can use for commit-checking.

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Re: [matplotlib-devel] MEP11: Attempting to deal with the Python library dependency issue

2012-10-03 Thread Michael Droettboom 
On 10/03/2012 05:26 PM, Erik Bray wrote:
> On 10/03/2012 12:20 PM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
>> I invite comments for a new MEP about improving the situation with
>> respect to our bundling of third-party Python dependencies.
>>
>> In particular, I'd love feedback from the various stakeholders -- those
>> producing binary installers and packages for the various platforms.
>>
>> https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/wiki/MEP11
>>
>> Mike
>
> +1 Let me know if you need/want any help with any distribute or pip 
> intricacies.
>
> As for Windows, I need to double check, but I believe bdist_wininst 
> installers generated by setuptools/distribute do support installing 
> dependencies from PyPI.
>
> Regarding Numpy: I'm not sure, does Matplotlib require Numpy at build 
> time?  I'm guessing probably yes, but if not it can also be installed 
> by easy_install or pip.  IIRC easy_install will install one of the 
> pre-built binary eggs.  pip only installs/builds from source which can 
> be problematic sometimes. Though I fixed Numpy a while back to be 
> installable by pip so it *does* work so long as Numpy can be built on 
> your system.

Numpy is required at build time (matplotlib C++ extensions need to 
include Numpy's headers), but I had assumed if it was a requirement, it 
would get installed first and then we'd be ok to proceed.  Is that not 
how pip works?

Mike


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Re: [matplotlib-devel] MEP11: Attempting to deal with the Python library dependency issue

2012-10-03 Thread Erik Bray 
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Michael Droettboom  wrote:
> On 10/03/2012 05:26 PM, Erik Bray wrote:
>> On 10/03/2012 12:20 PM, Michael Droettboom wrote:
>>> I invite comments for a new MEP about improving the situation with
>>> respect to our bundling of third-party Python dependencies.
>>>
>>> In particular, I'd love feedback from the various stakeholders -- those
>>> producing binary installers and packages for the various platforms.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/wiki/MEP11
>>>
>>> Mike
>>
>> +1 Let me know if you need/want any help with any distribute or pip
>> intricacies.
>>
>> As for Windows, I need to double check, but I believe bdist_wininst
>> installers generated by setuptools/distribute do support installing
>> dependencies from PyPI.
>>
>> Regarding Numpy: I'm not sure, does Matplotlib require Numpy at build
>> time?  I'm guessing probably yes, but if not it can also be installed
>> by easy_install or pip.  IIRC easy_install will install one of the
>> pre-built binary eggs.  pip only installs/builds from source which can
>> be problematic sometimes. Though I fixed Numpy a while back to be
>> installable by pip so it *does* work so long as Numpy can be built on
>> your system.
>
> Numpy is required at build time (matplotlib C++ extensions need to
> include Numpy's headers), but I had assumed if it was a requirement, it
> would get installed first and then we'd be ok to proceed.  Is that not
> how pip works?
>
> Mike

Yes/no.  Pip does install dependencies first, but they aren't
available at run-time of the setup.py of the dependent
package--unfortunate but mostly true.  I've been meaning to see if I
can fix that.  And easy_install of course is flawed in that it
installs dependencies afterwards. easy_install does support
setup_requires for downloading and adding packages to the path when
running setup.py, but this does *not* work with Numpy.

So as you wrote in the MEP, Numpy will simply have to be installed
separately, I think, if the C++ modules require the Numpy headers.

Erik

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