Re: New Maintainer for MC Project
Pavel, Below is your note posted today. Below that the full text of the letter, and response, to which you refer, with key sections highlighted and numbered. Programmers can read - I'll let them draw their own conclusions. A conversation is proposed regarding the project, the Midnight Commander project. The project your quoted comment was discussing. I clearly state that the Krew does not agree with some of the remarks on the Lists and elswhere that Midnight Commander be scrapped, and an entirely new program be written. The we feel Midnight Commander is just fine and can have a bright future with the right leadership. Again, the offer is reiterated, with the sole goal of keeping the MC Project viable. This is the only thing we ever proposed. My note of June 4, 2005, posted in full on this list, reiterated yet again this fact, and asked specifically if you understood that we were not interested in writing a new application, or a branch of the existing MC, but were offering help to the existing MC Team to continue to work on their project in a pleasant and stable environment. Why you now try and say we were, in essence, trying to scavange MC Developers away from the existing project to create a new one I cannot know - but the message traffic shows this in just not so. In my next note, I underscored this fact (note already posted in full below) saying: Regarding a fresh start, if it was our desire to compete with MC, we would have already released our product - this is not our wish. Our wish is to try and save a distressed project that we all regard highly and support. We are MC users, too. From what I see in your forums, you don't need new developers, your developers just need to see their work used by MC users. New developers are not the answer, new leadership is the answer. My note of June 1st also emphasizes that point, full message below. In the sentence marked 1), you acknowledge that you understand that we are talking about giving the current MC Project a home, and no other. No new project, No fork, THE MC Project. That was the offer from the start, and nothing else. Please stop mis-characterizing what I communicated in my messages. The notes speak for themselves. Terry Subject: Re: Awaiting your replyFrom: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED]In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitDate: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:38:34 -0400Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mime-Version: 1.0X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) Hello, Terry!On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 13:52 -0400, Fudoki wrote: Pavel, The leaders of the Krusader Krew have decided that we should wait a few days before directly posting our offer on the Midnight Commander Forums to give you an opportunity to respond to my last letter. I see the wisdom of this, and will not be posting to the MC Forums until you have had time to get back to us with your position on the MC Team becoming a part of the Krusader Project.1) *Sorry, I didn't realize that the question was about MC Team becoming a part of the Krusader Project. I cannot answer on behalf of anyoneexcept myself. I may join if I have time, but I'm not very optimistic.*If you are going to create a mailing list, please feel free to subscribe me. I'll unsubscribe if I have to.Our leadership wants to be certain that your feelings on this matter receive the consideration they deserve. Please let me know when you get a chance. Thanks! My feeling is that it would be nice to have a file manager with amaintainable codebase. I don't think anyone would object (maybe exceptcompeting projects).-- Regards,Pavel Roskin From: Pavel Roskin proski gnu orgTo: Fudoki sekhmet_616 yahoo comCc: mc-devel gnome orgSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:57:53 -0400 Hello!Sorry, I should have answered this long ago.On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 05:58 -0700, Fudoki wrote: Greetings All! My name is Terry Wilkinson and I am on the Docs Team and also am the Public Relations Coordinator for the Krusader File Manager Project (http://krusader.sourceforge.net/index.php). Our Team has been watching this list closely because most of us are regular MC users. I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. This is not true. In fact, it tried to discourage you from attempts totake over the existing project.That's what I wrote you:Fresh start needs developers. If you have developers, you don't need to talk to me. Just start coding and show me your existing code if youwant me in your team.From another message:By the way, I think the new project shouldn't be called Midnight Commander.Either you misunderstood me or you are misrepresenting my words. Ineither case, I don't think you should take over the existing project.If you
Fwd: New Maintainer for MC Project
Part 2 of 2 Original Message Subject: Re: A new day for MC? Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:01:32 -0400 From: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello! On Tue, 2005-05-24 at 19:01 -0400, Fudoki wrote: Dear Pavel, I am a longtime MC user and fan. I am also the PR Coordinator for the Krusader Krew. We are the project that makes the Krusader File Manager, so we understand all the issues and concerns you raise, firsthand. Been there, and are doing that. 1) *In reply to your suggestion that If someone else can take the responsibility for the project and make a release, I'm fine with it; the Krew has discussed your Project's current dilemma. All of us are MC users, and many of us use MC as much as we use our own Krusader (they have different areas of usefulness) - so we say this as not only as co-developers, but also as avid supporters, and loyal MC users: We would be willing to have a conversation with you, and your lead developers, about allowing your team to find a home in the Krusader Krew's project.* I'm not sure you really understand the problem. The problem is not with hosting or having a home. The problem is that I don't have enough time to deal with the project properly. This problem exists since January 2003. I'm struggling to reply to all personal e-mail I'm getting regarding the project. Right now, there are about 20 e-mails to reply in my queue. As for the mailing lists, there are hundreds e-mails I haven't seen since the last prerelease. This sort of defeats the purpose of prerelease because the feedback gets ignored. There are other developers doing some work, but I don't see anybody who could take over the project. Maybe we need more decentralization, but I don't think I could be the leading maintainer even in this case unless working on mc becomes my full-time job. The project requires a lot of expertize. Somehow I'm supposed to be able to evaluate Python syntax highlighting or issues with Tamil translation. Or I need people whose judgment I can trust. In any case, I need to be able to be reachable almost every day, and it's something I cannot promise. I cannot see how your project can help here. We can make your infrastructure and marketing problems go away literally overnight, and provide an environment where your team can focus on their work in a supportive and positive environment. Marketing problems? What do you mean? Maybe I just wasted my time explaining you the real problem? Best of all, we are all about file management and developing innovative new ways to deal with file management, so your needs and challenges are already well understood by us. 2) *Trying to forge a new project from the old, as some have suggested on your forums would only introduce further problems and, by itself, solve none. Yet some positive, affirmative, action must be taken for the good of all concerned.* Let's stick to technical terms here. What is forge? Do you mean rewriting the whole codebase or gradual cleaning of the existing code? 3) *If you feel that a fresh start would keep the MC Project viable, and facilitate the development process and morale of your team, let's talk. I believe you will find we have a lot in common, and a lot to offer.* Fresh start needs developers. If you have developers, you don't need to talk to me. Just start coding and show me your existing code if you want me in your team. We are deeply committed to the Open Source Movement, and would normally have posted this offer in open forum, but for several reasons, our leadership felt I should direct this offer to you first, to ensure fairness and as a courtesy. Please understand that we are in no way being secretive or using back channels. It's just that no useful purpose would be served by putting you on the spot; we want to help, not fuel the fire. I'll appreciate if you post in mc-devel@gnome.org. Please be more detailed in your proposal. The Krew extends it's support, encouragement, and if it is desired and would be helpful, our material assistance to keep what we consider a very worthy and worthwhile program that we value and use alive for years to come. I'm on H-1 visa in the USA until November 2005, and it doesn't allow me to be paid by anyone except my employer. You may be more successful hiring other developers in the meantime. --Regards, Pavel Roskin -- Original Message Subject: Re: A new day for MC? Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:29:24 -0400 From: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Pavel, Thanks for the prompt
Re: New Maintainer for MC Project
From - Thu Jun 2 20:53:04 2005X-Account-Key: account1X-UIDL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]X-Mozilla-Status: 0013X-Mozilla-Status2: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Received: from ibm46aec.bellsouth.net ([64.105.159.118]) by imf12aec.mail.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED] for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:07:32 -0400Received: from dv.roinet.com ([ 64.105.159.118]) by ibm46aec.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED] for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:07:31 -0400Received: from dv.roinet.com (localhost.localdomain [ 127.0.0.1]) by dv.roinet.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j52N7VA5003842 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:07:31 -0400 Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by dv.roinet.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j52N7VmY003839 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:07:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: dv.roinet.com: proski set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -fSubject: Re: A new day for MC?From: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED]In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:07:31 -0400Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mime-Version: 1.0X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-7) Hi, Terry!On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:42 -0400, Fudoki wrote: Greetings Pavel! Thanks for the kind and prompt reply. Many of the technical issues you raise have been things we have discussed. As one would expect, you have some great ideas. I'm glad you have come to realize that great developers often have little patience for the trivia of Project Management. I have done both jobs, but *never* at the same time! ;) When I manage a project, I don't write code, beyond fixing an occasional typo, or commenting code. Rafi and Shie (our leaders, and Lead Developers at Zend, The PHP Company in their day jobs) were insistent that we wait until you gave your blessing before posting an open message on the MC Forums. As Maintainers themselves, they wanted everything we did to be 100% true to the Open Source way. Thanks for giving me the go ahead on this.You definitely have my go ahead. I have two concerns about how to proceed, and perhaps you can give me the benefit of your years of experience with the MC Project. They are: 1) The professional and family responsibilities you have being fully understood and appreciated, I want you to know that whatever happens your input and ideas are considered valuable. I understand the concerns you raise, and respect them, but want to be clear that just because you have had trouble dealing with the nuisance and time drain a Maintainer has thrown at him, that does not take away from your talent as a developer, in fact it just proves it. Programmers just don't deal with trivial nonsense very well - it's just a fact.Exactly. Thank you for your support.In fact, I stopped contributing much to the project after I was accusedin January 2003 that I ignore the discussion (which ended up as a flamewar), while I was actually doing my best to keep track of it whileon vacation in Russia.As soon as people expect me to participate in every flamewar nad have anopinion on everything, it just stops to be fun. I want you to know that I value your advice and ideas as a programmer, and time permitting, welcome these. My guess is that once freed of the misery of having to be a Maintainer, you might just have some really good ideas for new functionality, and if you do, I would like to know. OK?It's hard for me to promise, but I'll be glad to participate if I can. 2) You mentioned the developers from the old project who don't want to repeat old design flaws. Could you give me some insight, privately, on which developers in the current MC Project are forward thinking, innovative, and adaptable? (On the next item, I understand if you prefer to pass.) If there are developer(s) who are an overall impediment to the Project, it would be great to know this too. Sometimes programmers will become attached to old ways, or don't want to change because they don't want to give up being the expert. This is what I see between the lines here. If you could give me some guidance on who might be suffering from this problem it will help us greatly Those who are really annoying have a short attention span and leave oncethey see that they are ignored. Those are usually single-issuedevelopers with one patch they desperately want applied. I haven't seen them much in the last months, but they can resurface.As for helpers, they all are constrained by the fragility of theexisting code. They could act differently when working on the new code.Some are learning good manners now, but please judge them by their code and their ability to understand, not by their manners.I have a feeling that the best programmers will join
Re: New Maintainer for MC Project
Hello, Terry!Now I see you actually understand me better than many mc contributorsand better than I initially thought. Maybe I was too harsh in myinitial e-mail. There was a significant fallout in my inbox caused by the recent discussions, and I had to deal with it while being verypressed with work and family duties.I agree that the project needs a fresh start. I mean something likewhat Subversion is to CVS - a new codebase, new technology, new protocol, but similar interface for the end user. And most importantly,the developers from the old project who don't want to repeat old designflaws.Speaking of the design flaws, these are some key issues I'd like to see addressed:1) Unicode and wide chars everywhere. No more strlen().2) No more targeting obsolete platforms. Portability fixes are appliedonly if they are reasonably maintainable.3) Object oriented design from ground up. Using an object oriented language (e.g. C++) to enforce the design. This is highly debatable,but I don't think C would be good enough, with all my love to low-levelprogramming. Other languages are fine as long as they bind easily to libraries in C.4) Reduce the number of --with and --enable. One screen library (Isuggest ncurses), mandatory VFS (one could disable some methods but notthe whole VFS layer), dynamically load optional libraries. 5) Internal terminal and internal subshell from the beginning. Whinersare free to use the old mc. Maintaining 4 combinations ofshell/terminal capabilities (with/without subshell, with/without screensaving) should no longer be needed. I'm fine with sharing code with screen and bash.6) Reuse externally maintained libraries whenever possible. Immediateportability to ancient OSes should not be an issue. Quality of code and _potential_ portability should be considered instead. We need aportability layer (either glib2 or APR), a fullscreen graphic library(maybe ncurses forms) and a library for settings. 7) The viewer should be a special read-only mode of the editor. Itcould share a library with the file manager, but I would prefer it to bea separate project with a separate maintainer and maybe a separate mailing list.8) We need a modular configuration for file associations with amechanism to find the best application for the environment.I'm ready to post the above publicly, but right now I'd like to keep the communication channels open for 4.6.1 release.I have absolutely no problem with you writing to the mailing listdirectly.Unfortunately, I don't see myself the maintainer of the new project. Ihave realized over the years of work with free software that I'm much more effective as a contributor than as a maintainer.Once people start expecting me to deal with issues I'm not interested inor to write responses in timely manner, contributing to the projectstops being interesting for me. Once I even had to stop participating in a project after my activity in the mailing list caused a wave offree support requests over the private e-mail. At some point I waseven thinking of closing my e-mail addresses and assuming a new identity just to get rid of the expectations.I'm ready to help with my experience, but my experience with mc wasmostly fixing and reorganizing the code, not implementing newfunctionality. That's why I'm asking you to look for a better maintainer.By the way, I think the new project shouldn't be called MidnightCommander. Maybe something with Commander at the end and adistinctive two letter command name, e.g. Zivisus Commander - zc, where Zivisus is Zivisus Is VISUal Shell :-) -- Regards,Pavel Roskin ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Fwd: New Maintainer for MC Project
Part 1 of 2-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 7, 2005 9:50 PMSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC ProjectTo: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pavel, Below is your note posted today. Below that the full text of the letter, and response, to which you refer, with key sections highlighted and numbered. Programmers can read - I'll let them draw their own conclusions. A conversation is proposed regarding the project, the Midnight Commander project. The project your quoted comment was discussing. I clearly state that the Krew does not agree with some of the remarks on the Lists and elswhere that Midnight Commander be scrapped, and an entirely new program be written. The we feel Midnight Commander is just fine and can have a bright future with the right leadership. Again, the offer is reiterated, with the sole goal of keeping the MC Project viable. This is the only thing we ever proposed. My note of June 4, 2005, posted in full on this list, reiterated yet again this fact, and asked specifically if you understood that we were not interested in writing a new application, or a branch of the existing MC, but were offering help to the existing MC Team to continue to work on their project in a pleasant and stable environment. Why you now try and say we were, in essence, trying to scavange MC Developers away from the existing project to create a new one I cannot know - but the message traffic shows this in just not so. In my next note, I underscored this fact (note already posted in full below) saying: Regarding a fresh start, if it was our desire to compete with MC, we would have already released our product - this is not our wish. Our wish is to try and save a distressed project that we all regard highly and support. We are MC users, too. From what I see in your forums, you don't need new developers, your developers just need to see their work used by MC users. New developers are not the answer, new leadership is the answer. My note of June 1st also emphasizes that point, full message below. In the sentence marked 1), you acknowledge that you understand that we are talking about giving the current MC Project a home, and no other. No new project, No fork, THE MC Project. That was the offer from the start, and nothing else. Please stop mis-characterizing what I communicated in my messages. The notes speak for themselves. Terry Subject: Re: Awaiting your replyFrom: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED]In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plainContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitDate: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:38:34 -0400Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mime-Version: 1.0X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5 ) Hello, Terry!On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 13:52 -0400, Fudoki wrote: Pavel, The leaders of the Krusader Krew have decided that we should wait a few days before directly posting our offer on the Midnight Commander Forums to give you an opportunity to respond to my last letter. I see the wisdom of this, and will not be posting to the MC Forums until you have had time to get back to us with your position on the MC Team becoming a part of the Krusader Project.1) *Sorry, I didn't realize that the question was about MC Team becoming apart of the Krusader Project. I cannot answer on behalf of anyone except myself. I may join if I have time, but I'm not very optimistic.*If you are going to create a mailing list, please feel free to subscribeme. I'll unsubscribe if I have to. Our leadership wants to be certain that your feelings on this matter receive the consideration they deserve. Please let me know when you get a chance. Thanks!My feeling is that it would be nice to have a file manager with a maintainable codebase. I don't think anyone would object (maybe exceptcompeting projects).-- Regards,Pavel Roskin From: Pavel Roskin proski gnu orgTo: Fudoki sekhmet_616 yahoo comCc: mc-devel gnome orgSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:57:53 -0400 Hello!Sorry, I should have answered this long ago.On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 05:58 -0700, Fudoki wrote: Greetings All! My name is Terry Wilkinson and I am on the Docs Team and also am the Public Relations Coordinator for the Krusader File Manager Project ( http://krusader.sourceforge.net/index.php). Our Team has been watching this list closely because most of us are regular MC users. I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so.This is not true. In fact, it tried to discourage you from attempts totake over the existing project. That's what I wrote you:Fresh start needs developers. If you have developers, you don't needto talk to me. Just start coding and show me your existing code if youwant me in your team. From another message:By
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?? Part 1 of 3
Found the problem - your list wants small posts. I will break up the response to your questions so it will get past your list limits. Terry Part 1 of 3-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org Greetings Leonard! Just received this morning's digest. Thanks for your note. Answers to your questions below:Message: 6Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:22 +0200From: Leonard den Ottolander [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel mc-devel@gnome.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainHello Terry,On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:05, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, as your own unit, so you can do your work in a supportive, positive, environment with good resources and good leadership?How do you see this task of maintainership?One way to put it would be: [A maintainer] oversees theproject development, formulate[s] sensible milestone targets andcommunicate[s] with the Developers[, Docs Team, Web SupportTeam, Marketing Team, and Project Leadership, as appropriate]about these targets and if they are [not] being met [to recommend,and if necessary take, appropriate steps to either readjust the targets or eliminate the cause of the failure to timely meet the targets], and [successfully complete regular] release[s as appropriate due toDeveloper progress, technological demands, or User demands or needs].Part 1 of 3 - END ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?? Part 2 of 3
Part 2 of 3-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org snip!Our Leadership asked me to be the Project Manager for the MC Project, should the Developers of MC so choose, because I am NOT a C programmer (even though I know and have used, taught, and developed applications in 14 other programming languages) so I will [notnecessarily do a lot of ] the [development] my[self]. That will be up to the MC Developers and the Leadership of the Krusader Project, who are advanced, expert, C Programmers with some pretty incredible credentials (they are the Lead Programmers for Zend, the makers of the PHP language, for example). Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Pavel confirmed this in our conversations. I have been asked to help set reasonable and attainable goals and use my skills to help the Developers meet those goals.Because of my extensive technology management experience, Project Management experience, product design experience, interface design research and coding experience, and a comprehensive understanding of the International software market, together with the fact that I am semi-retired and have the time to be available, our Leadership felt that I would be best able to work with the MC Development Team to make sure their needs were met and to act as a liaison between the MC Project and the Krusader Project, scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner.In other words, I'm an old guy who knows how to do all the different jobs and appreciates how hard it is for developers to do a good job when they are being annoyed by all kinds of other problems and pressures. I can make those problems go away.I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. I feel the midnightcommander is very much it's own project, and I don't feel verycomfortable about becoming a unit of anything.We agree, this is why the fact that the MC Project would remain a discreet, unique, entity is specifically mentioned. What the MC Developers choose to call it: unit, division, department, platoon, whatever - you decide - you will not be absorbed into the Krusader Krew automatically. Some of the MC Developers may wind up being asked to be members of the Krew, but if they are it will be because they have made the grade, just like all the current Krew members. It's not easy. It's not a right. But that is an entirely different issue and has no bearing on your status as a part of the MC Development [insert name here] - for now we'll just call it Team. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above.I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process,just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice.Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc. The MC Development Team will have the benefit of the Krew's infrastructure, and that comes in one flavor - the best we can possibly produce. If this is more than you are used to, sorry! As I said above, we are proud of our standards in every area of our Project, and think if given a chance, you would be proud of them as well. Part 2 of 3 - ENDS ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?? Part 3 of 3
Part 3 of 3-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org Part 3 of 3 snip! We are interested in helping the MC Team for two reasons: 1) We are all MC users and fans, have been for years. On my SUSE 9.2 workstation MC loads second, Krusader loads fifth. We want to see MC come out with a new version, and then another, and so on..., 2) We are in the File Management business. File Management is what we are about. Even though Krusader and MC are very different products, for very different usages in many cases, for different working environments; they are both Twin-Panel File Managers. Did I mention that this is what we do? We believe that there is considerable synergy between the two products now, and given the right environment and some time, that there could be a great deal of synergy between the two products. We cannot help but believe that if we get an additional development team of file management experts working with us, even in different parts of the house, that this will lead to breakthroughs in file management technology AND make both products better and more desirable - even if all the two different teams do is talk and compare war stories'. How many other file management developers do you guys know who are not on your team? We think having the two premier file management application development teams under the same roof creates a unique and powerful technology situation; and given the current strife and problems your team has been having (the rumors of the product dying, etc.) and our ability to make what we believe is a very attractive offer, on several levels, to help out and take over as Maintainer for MC from Pavel; we would be out of our heads not to at least ask. To at least see if anyone wanted to have a conversation about the possibility. After discussing the matter with Pavel over the past two weeks, we are more sure than ever that such an arrangement can have great potential, and great payoffs, for both teams. Pavel urged me to make contact with you developers and if you were willing, move forward. Given the situation, what would do? I wrote a note asking if anyone wanted to discuss making a change. It was the only choice.One of your developers seemed to be upset because what we are proposing is not gradual enough. The fact is, if the MC Developers want to accept our offer, then Pavel will transfer the Maintainership to me and we will move forward, and the MC Project will get a fresh start and be able to leave all the trouble of the past three years in the past, and we believe, move forward to a rewarding and gratifying future where all of us can break new technology ground and do what we like to do most - design and write killer software that users all over the world love! Any member of the MC Development Team that is not into that idea will not be happy around the Krew, and may want to think about some other hobby than writing free software. But there is really no gradual, incremental way to do this kind of thing. This is a chance that rarely comes up, we could never live with ourselves if we never even tried to see if it could work...What the project needs is a maintainer (or maintainers) that notnecessarily does a lot of development himself, but one that oversees theproject development, can formulate sensible milestone targets andcommunicate with the developers about these targets and if they arebeing met, and do an occasional release.I hope I have covered these concerns.I'm not sure this is what you are suggesting.Be sure. This is exactly what we are suggesting! If you would like to discuss this, or any other File Management related issues, Skype me (Skype ID = fudoki) and we'll chat. I'm a fellow programmer, and a fellow lover of good software that people don't have to buy from the evil empire and sacrifice their firstborn to obtain and use! We like being the best at what we do. Not so long ago the MC Team was the best at what they do. It can be that way again. Where will you find a Maintainer that understands you better than us?You guys deserve, IOHO, a chance to shine again. We offer you that chance under the best conditions we can come up with. It the same as we have, which is the very best we can do - and believe me, it ain't bad! Thanks for your note and please don't hesitate to write or Skype if you have any more questions, concerns, etc. If you and some of the other Developers want to arrange a conference call with me and one or more of our Developers to get a feel for our programming standards and what we expect in terms of professional competence; I will be happy to facilitate this. That's what I am here for - to be a facilitator and liaison. Just let me know.With warm regards,Terry -END of DOCUMENT ___ Mc-devel mailing list http
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??
Leonard, Due to some problems with Gmail yesterday, it appears that this may not have actually been sent, so I am re-sending it. If this turns out to be a duplicate, please disregard. Thanks! Terry-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org Greetings Leonard! Just received this morning's digest. Thanks for your note. Answers to your questions below:Message: 6Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:22 +0200From: Leonard den Ottolander [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel mc-devel@gnome.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainHello Terry,On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:05, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, as your own unit, so you can do your work in a supportive, positive, environment with good resources and good leadership?How do you see this task of maintainership?One way to put it would be: [A maintainer] oversees theproject development, formulate[s] sensible milestone targets andcommunicate[s] with the Developers[, Docs Team, Web SupportTeam, Marketing Team, and Project Leadership, as appropriate]about these targets and if they are [not] being met [to recommend,and if necessary take, appropriate steps to either readjust the targets or eliminate the cause of the failure to timely meet the targets], and [successfully complete regular] release[s as appropriate due toDeveloper progress, technological demands, or User demands or needs].Our Leadership asked me to be the Project Manager for the MC Project, should the Developers of MC so choose, because I am NOT a C programmer (even though I know and have used, taught, and developed applications in 14 other programming languages) so I will [notnecessarily do a lot of ] the [development] my[self]. That will be up to the MC Developers and the Leadership of the Krusader Project, who are advanced, expert, C Programmers with some pretty incredible credentials (they are the Lead Programmers for Zend, the makers of the PHP language, for example). Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Pavel confirmed this in our conversations. I have been asked to help set reasonable and attainable goals and use my skills to help the Developers meet those goals.Because of my extensive technology management experience, Project Management experience, product design experience, interface design research and coding experience, and a comprehensive understanding of the International software market, together with the fact that I am semi-retired and have the time to be available, our Leadership felt that I would be best able to work with the MC Development Team to make sure their needs were met and to act as a liaison between the MC Project and the Krusader Project, scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner.In other words, I'm an old guy who knows how to do all the different jobs and appreciates how hard it is for developers to do a good job when they are being annoyed by all kinds of other problems and pressures. I can make those problems go away.I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. I feel the midnightcommander is very much it's own project, and I don't feel verycomfortable about becoming a unit of anything.We agree, this is why the fact that the MC Project would remain a discreet, unique, entity is specifically mentioned. What the MC Developers choose to call it: unit, division, department, platoon, whatever - you decide - you will not be absorbed into the Krusader Krew automatically. Some of the MC Developers may wind up being asked to be members of the Krew, but if they are it will be because they have made the grade, just like all the current Krew members. It's not easy. It's not a right. But that is an entirely different issue and has no bearing on your status as a part of the MC Development [insert name here] - for now we'll just call it Team. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above.I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process,just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice.Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc
Fwd: New Maintainer for MC Project?
Part 2 of 2-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 5, 2005 5:16 PMSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?To: Miguel de Icaza [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org As I stated previously, if we have problems in Midnight Commander, Iwill step in as its maintainer or suggest someone actively involved (or which has been actively involved in the past) to do so. If you have problems??? Have you been on another planet? Oh, I forget, you have been in your corporate ivory tower. Our kind offer of help was in response to the friendly *invitation* of your current Maintainer, and the *posted messages* of your developers, and your users. Perhaps you should talk to Pavel sometime, he welcomed and encouraged our offer. Alternatively, you could read the MC Mailing Lists. Our kind offer of help was invited by the current Maintainer, who now has a problem on his hands, even larger than his previous problem. You see, your insults and abuse has earned you a new fan, and the first thing I am going to do as your newest buddy, is get out of your way so you can show the world how you step in and save the day with your mighty power. Use it quick, because a fool and his power is soon parted, or was that a fool and his money? No matter same thing, isn't it? Accordingly, in consideration of Mr. Icaza's very ugly letter, it is clear that doing anything to assist or improve anything that might positively reflect on Mr. Icaza is something we would now avoid at all costs. Some people deserve all they earn, and I promise I will do everything I can to see you get what you deserve. You might just be surprised how good at it someone without merit or skill can be. We appreciate Pavel's friendly encouragement, and Leonard's openminded and professional courtesy. Leonard, we truly sympathize and would like to help, the door is always open; but there are just some people whose work is better left to decay, and Mr. Icaza has shown us our mistake in thinking MC was worth the significant erffort we were willing to put into it. There's always Worker. Roland must be Mr. Icaza's protege, just slinging abuse and saying no before the offer is even on the table; but he had already been identified as a cry baby and had no future with the Krew; mainly due to his private notes to our Marketing Manager blasting the MC Project and it's Maintainers. Making a change is one thing, betraying your own team and backbiting is another. Roland and Mr. Icaza should work well together. The rudeness of Roland, and the immature, trailer trash, abusivness of Mr. Icaza are duly noted. I'm sure the folks at Novell will be impressed with the way in which their Vice President has handled this situation. Representing a major corporation is a big responsibility, a 24/7 responsibility, and I am sure your representation of them in this matter will not go overlooked, or unrewarded considering Novell's objective of successfully gaining positive mindshare in the Open Source Community. With Mr. Icaza's representations style, we can all be sure a big impression will be made Remember what they were saying in the Annual Report, and those handouts. You did 'em proud! So you see, Mr. Icaza's note, and the follow up: The question is whether he can execute successfully on those, and everybit of his email rubbed me in the wrong way. Seen this pattern too manytimes in the past to recognize it. Really leave no decision to be made on my part. Will Mr. Icaza ever know if I can execute successfully? Only time will tell, but I will say he will definitely know if the answer is yes! How will he know? Well it *won't* be from an ugly letter from a stranger, I will tell you that much. As of 1800hrs, 5 June 2005, the Krusader Krew's offer of assistance to the Midnight Commander Project is withdrawn. We would like to apologize to the MC List for even suggesting you had a problem, dispite what your Maintainers, Developers, and Users may say. Mr. Icaza has set us straight and we honestly meant no harm with our , we realize now, foolish offer of aide. You can be sure that in future, should you need assistance or face difficulty, that we will not trouble you further with offers of generous help and unqualified support. Sincerely, W. T. Fudoki Wilkinson Public Relations Coordinator The Krusader Krew Miguel. Part 2 of 2 ENDS - End of Document ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?
now avoid at all costs. Some people deserve all they earn, and I promise I will do everything I can to see you get what you deserve. You might just be surprised how good at it someone without merit or skill can be. We appreciate Pavel's friendly encouragement, and Leonard's openminded and professional courtesy. Leonard, we truly sympathize and would like to help, the door is always open; but there are just some people whose work is better left to decay, and Mr. Icaza has shown us our mistake in thinking MC was worth the significant erffort we were willing to put into it. There's always Worker. Roland must be Mr. Icaza's protege, just slinging abuse and saying no before the offer is even on the table; but he had already been identified as a cry baby and had no future with the Krew; mainly due to his private notes to our Marketing Manager blasting the MC Project and it's Maintainers. Making a change is one thing, betraying your own team and backbiting is another. Roland and Mr. Icaza should work well together. The rudeness of Roland, and the immature, trailer trash, abusivness of Mr. Icaza are duly noted. I'm sure the folks at Novell will be impressed with the way in which their Vice President has handled this situation. Representing a major corporation is a big responsibility, a 24/7 responsibility, and I am sure your representation of them in this matter will not go overlooked, or unrewarded considering Novell's objective of successfully gaining positive mindshare in the Open Source Community. With Mr. Icaza's representations style, we can all be sure a big impression will be made Remember what they were saying in the Annual Report, and those handouts. You did 'em proud! So you see, Mr. Icaza's note, and the follow up: The question is whether he can execute successfully on those, and everybit of his email rubbed me in the wrong way. Seen this pattern too manytimes in the past to recognize it. Really leave no decision to be made on my part. Will Mr. Icaza ever know if I can execute successfully? Only time will tell, but I will say he will definitely know if the answer is yes! How will he know? Well it *won't* be from an ugly letter from a stranger, I will tell you that much. As of 1800hrs, 5 June 2005, the Krusader Krew's offer of assistance to the Midnight Commander Project is withdrawn. We would like to apologize to the MC List for even suggesting you had a problem, dispite what your Maintainers, Developers, and Users may say. Mr. Icaza has set us straight and we honestly meant no harm with our , we realize now, foolish offer of aide. You can be sure that in future, should you need assistance or face difficulty, that we will not trouble you further with offers of generous help and unqualified support. Sincerely, W. T. Fudoki Wilkinson Public Relations Coordinator The Krusader Krew Miguel. On 6/5/05, Miguel de Icaza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello,Thanks for offering to become the new maintainer for MidnightCommander. I do not want you to become the Project Manager for anumber of reasons:* In open source, maintainers are chosen by their merits, before today I have never heard of you.It is a meritocracy, youhave shown none so far.* In open source, I have never seen a project manager, this isan invention of the standard software industry.There is noproject manager for Linux, Samba, x-Windows.* Maintainers are people with deep understanding of the codebaseand the language the code is written in, so they can make decisions as to what is best for the project on technicalgrounds.* You exhibit the behavior of many people who have no ideaswhatsoever about the project but like big titles.Public Relations Coordinator, the leadership, and ProjectManager.* MC should not be part of the Krusader family, it isan independent project, not part of a suite. * I dislike people who misspell: Krusader and Krew.* Tell the Leadership that thanks, but no thanks. As I stated previously, if we have problems in Midnight Commander, I will step in as its maintainer or suggest someone actively involved (orwhich has been actively involved in the past) to do so.Miguel. On 6/5/05, Miguel de Icaza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello,Thanks for offering to become the new maintainer for MidnightCommander. I do not want you to become the Project Manager for anumber of reasons:* In open source, maintainers are chosen by their merits, before today I have never heard of you.It is a meritocracy, youhave shown none so far.* In open source, I have never seen a project manager, this isan invention of the standard software industry.There is noproject manager for Linux, Samba, x-Windows.* Maintainers are people with deep understanding of the codebaseand the language the code is written in, so they can make decisions as to what is best for the project on technicalgrounds.* You exhibit the behavior of many people who have no ideaswhatsoever about the project but like big titles.Public Relations Coordinator, the leadership
Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?
Looks like it did, since this is not an apology. You really *don't* know who I am. But at least this note was not loaded with blind insults, so I guess that's progress. Good luck with MC, Fudoki On 6/5/05, Miguel de Icaza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings,Your last email proved my point.Miguel. ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
New Maintainer for MC Project??
Greetings All! My name is Terry Wilkinson and I am on the DocsTeam and also am the Public Relations Coordinator forthe Krusader File Manager Project( http://krusader.sourceforge.net/index.php). Our Teamhas been watching this list closely because most of usare regular MC users. I have also been talking to ourleadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight CommanderProject, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Pavelonly wants what is best for Midnight Commander to besuccessful. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, asyour own unit, so you can do your work in asupportive, positive, environment with good resourcesand good leadership? If so, just let me know. Sincerely,W. T. Fudoki WilkinsonPublic Relations CoordinatorThe Krusader Krewhttp://krusader.sourceforge.net/dev.php ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??
Greetings Leonard! Just received this morning's digest. Thanks for your note. Answers to your questions below:Message: 6Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:22 +0200From: Leonard den Ottolander [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel mc-devel@gnome.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainHello Terry,On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:05, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, as your own unit, so you can do your work in a supportive, positive, environment with good resources and good leadership?How do you see this task of maintainership?One way to put it would be: [A maintainer] oversees theproject development, formulate[s] sensible milestone targets andcommunicate[s] with the Developers[, Docs Team, Web SupportTeam, Marketing Team, and Project Leadership, as appropriate]about these targets and if they are [not] being met [to recommend,and if necessary take, appropriate steps to either readjust the targets or eliminate the cause of the failure to timely meet the targets], and [successfully complete regular] release[s as appropriate due toDeveloper progress, technological demands, or User demands or needs].Our Leadership asked me to be the Project Manager for the MC Project, should the Developers of MC so choose, because I am NOT a C programmer (even though I know and have used, taught, and developed applications in 14 other programming languages) so I will [notnecessarily do a lot of ] the [development] my[self]. That will be up to the MC Developers and the Leadership of the Krusader Project, who are advanced, expert, C Programmers with some pretty incredible credentials (they are the Lead Programmers for Zend, the makers of the PHP language, for example). Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Pavel confirmed this in our conversations. I have been asked to help set reasonable and attainable goals and use my skills to help the Developers meet those goals.Because of my extensive technology management experience, Project Management experience, product design experience, interface design research and coding experience, and a comprehensive understanding of the International software market, together with the fact that I am semi-retired and have the time to be available, our Leadership felt that I would be best able to work with the MC Development Team to make sure their needs were met and to act as a liaison between the MC Project and the Krusader Project, scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner.In other words, I'm an old guy who knows how to do all the different jobs and appreciates how hard it is for developers to do a good job when they are being annoyed by all kinds of other problems and pressures. I can make those problems go away.I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. I feel the midnightcommander is very much it's own project, and I don't feel verycomfortable about becoming a unit of anything.We agree, this is why the fact that the MC Project would remain a discreet, unique, entity is specifically mentioned. What the MC Developers choose to call it: unit, division, department, platoon, whatever - you decide - you will not be absorbed into the Krusader Krew automatically. Some of the MC Developers may wind up being asked to be members of the Krew, but if they are it will be because they have made the grade, just like all the current Krew members. It's not easy. It's not a right. But that is an entirely different issue and has no bearing on your status as a part of the MC Development [insert name here] - for now we'll just call it Team. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above.I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process,just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice.Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc. The MC Development Team will have the benefit of the Krew's infrastructure, and that comes in one flavor - the best we can possibly produce. If this is more than you are used to, sorry! As I said above, we are proud of our standards in every area of our Project, and think if given a chance, you would be proud of them as well.We are interested in helping the MC Team for two reasons: 1) We
