Fwd: New Maintainer for MC Project
Part 2 of 2 Original Message Subject: Re: A new day for MC? Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:01:32 -0400 From: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello! On Tue, 2005-05-24 at 19:01 -0400, Fudoki wrote: Dear Pavel, I am a longtime MC user and fan. I am also the PR Coordinator for the Krusader Krew. We are the project that makes the Krusader File Manager, so we understand all the issues and concerns you raise, firsthand. Been there, and are doing that. 1) *In reply to your suggestion that If someone else can take the responsibility for the project and make a release, I'm fine with it; the Krew has discussed your Project's current dilemma. All of us are MC users, and many of us use MC as much as we use our own Krusader (they have different areas of usefulness) - so we say this as not only as co-developers, but also as avid supporters, and loyal MC users: We would be willing to have a conversation with you, and your lead developers, about allowing your team to find a home in the Krusader Krew's project.* I'm not sure you really understand the problem. The problem is not with hosting or having a home. The problem is that I don't have enough time to deal with the project properly. This problem exists since January 2003. I'm struggling to reply to all personal e-mail I'm getting regarding the project. Right now, there are about 20 e-mails to reply in my queue. As for the mailing lists, there are hundreds e-mails I haven't seen since the last prerelease. This sort of defeats the purpose of prerelease because the feedback gets ignored. There are other developers doing some work, but I don't see anybody who could take over the project. Maybe we need more decentralization, but I don't think I could be the leading maintainer even in this case unless working on mc becomes my full-time job. The project requires a lot of expertize. Somehow I'm supposed to be able to evaluate Python syntax highlighting or issues with Tamil translation. Or I need people whose judgment I can trust. In any case, I need to be able to be reachable almost every day, and it's something I cannot promise. I cannot see how your project can help here. We can make your infrastructure and marketing problems go away literally overnight, and provide an environment where your team can focus on their work in a supportive and positive environment. Marketing problems? What do you mean? Maybe I just wasted my time explaining you the real problem? Best of all, we are all about file management and developing innovative new ways to deal with file management, so your needs and challenges are already well understood by us. 2) *Trying to forge a new project from the old, as some have suggested on your forums would only introduce further problems and, by itself, solve none. Yet some positive, affirmative, action must be taken for the good of all concerned.* Let's stick to technical terms here. What is forge? Do you mean rewriting the whole codebase or gradual cleaning of the existing code? 3) *If you feel that a fresh start would keep the MC Project viable, and facilitate the development process and morale of your team, let's talk. I believe you will find we have a lot in common, and a lot to offer.* Fresh start needs developers. If you have developers, you don't need to talk to me. Just start coding and show me your existing code if you want me in your team. We are deeply committed to the Open Source Movement, and would normally have posted this offer in open forum, but for several reasons, our leadership felt I should direct this offer to you first, to ensure fairness and as a courtesy. Please understand that we are in no way being secretive or using back channels. It's just that no useful purpose would be served by putting you on the spot; we want to help, not fuel the fire. I'll appreciate if you post in mc-devel@gnome.org. Please be more detailed in your proposal. The Krew extends it's support, encouragement, and if it is desired and would be helpful, our material assistance to keep what we consider a very worthy and worthwhile program that we value and use alive for years to come. I'm on H-1 visa in the USA until November 2005, and it doesn't allow me to be paid by anyone except my employer. You may be more successful hiring other developers in the meantime. --Regards, Pavel Roskin -- Original Message Subject: Re: A new day for MC? Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:29:24 -0400 From: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Pavel, Thanks for the prompt
Fwd: New Maintainer for MC Project
Part 1 of 2-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 7, 2005 9:50 PMSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC ProjectTo: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pavel, Below is your note posted today. Below that the full text of the letter, and response, to which you refer, with key sections highlighted and numbered. Programmers can read - I'll let them draw their own conclusions. A conversation is proposed regarding the project, the Midnight Commander project. The project your quoted comment was discussing. I clearly state that the Krew does not agree with some of the remarks on the Lists and elswhere that Midnight Commander be scrapped, and an entirely new program be written. The we feel Midnight Commander is just fine and can have a bright future with the right leadership. Again, the offer is reiterated, with the sole goal of keeping the MC Project viable. This is the only thing we ever proposed. My note of June 4, 2005, posted in full on this list, reiterated yet again this fact, and asked specifically if you understood that we were not interested in writing a new application, or a branch of the existing MC, but were offering help to the existing MC Team to continue to work on their project in a pleasant and stable environment. Why you now try and say we were, in essence, trying to scavange MC Developers away from the existing project to create a new one I cannot know - but the message traffic shows this in just not so. In my next note, I underscored this fact (note already posted in full below) saying: Regarding a fresh start, if it was our desire to compete with MC, we would have already released our product - this is not our wish. Our wish is to try and save a distressed project that we all regard highly and support. We are MC users, too. From what I see in your forums, you don't need new developers, your developers just need to see their work used by MC users. New developers are not the answer, new leadership is the answer. My note of June 1st also emphasizes that point, full message below. In the sentence marked 1), you acknowledge that you understand that we are talking about giving the current MC Project a home, and no other. No new project, No fork, THE MC Project. That was the offer from the start, and nothing else. Please stop mis-characterizing what I communicated in my messages. The notes speak for themselves. Terry Subject: Re: Awaiting your replyFrom: Pavel Roskin [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Fudoki [EMAIL PROTECTED]In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plainContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitDate: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:38:34 -0400Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mime-Version: 1.0X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5 ) Hello, Terry!On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 13:52 -0400, Fudoki wrote: Pavel, The leaders of the Krusader Krew have decided that we should wait a few days before directly posting our offer on the Midnight Commander Forums to give you an opportunity to respond to my last letter. I see the wisdom of this, and will not be posting to the MC Forums until you have had time to get back to us with your position on the MC Team becoming a part of the Krusader Project.1) *Sorry, I didn't realize that the question was about MC Team becoming apart of the Krusader Project. I cannot answer on behalf of anyone except myself. I may join if I have time, but I'm not very optimistic.*If you are going to create a mailing list, please feel free to subscribeme. I'll unsubscribe if I have to. Our leadership wants to be certain that your feelings on this matter receive the consideration they deserve. Please let me know when you get a chance. Thanks!My feeling is that it would be nice to have a file manager with a maintainable codebase. I don't think anyone would object (maybe exceptcompeting projects).-- Regards,Pavel Roskin From: Pavel Roskin proski gnu orgTo: Fudoki sekhmet_616 yahoo comCc: mc-devel gnome orgSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:57:53 -0400 Hello!Sorry, I should have answered this long ago.On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 05:58 -0700, Fudoki wrote: Greetings All! My name is Terry Wilkinson and I am on the Docs Team and also am the Public Relations Coordinator for the Krusader File Manager Project ( http://krusader.sourceforge.net/index.php). Our Team has been watching this list closely because most of us are regular MC users. I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so.This is not true. In fact, it tried to discourage you from attempts totake over the existing project. That's what I wrote you:Fresh start needs developers. If you have developers, you don't needto talk to me. Just start coding and show me your existing code if youwant me in your team. From another message:By
Fwd: New Maintainer for MC Project?
Part 2 of 2-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 5, 2005 5:16 PMSubject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?To: Miguel de Icaza [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org As I stated previously, if we have problems in Midnight Commander, Iwill step in as its maintainer or suggest someone actively involved (or which has been actively involved in the past) to do so. If you have problems??? Have you been on another planet? Oh, I forget, you have been in your corporate ivory tower. Our kind offer of help was in response to the friendly *invitation* of your current Maintainer, and the *posted messages* of your developers, and your users. Perhaps you should talk to Pavel sometime, he welcomed and encouraged our offer. Alternatively, you could read the MC Mailing Lists. Our kind offer of help was invited by the current Maintainer, who now has a problem on his hands, even larger than his previous problem. You see, your insults and abuse has earned you a new fan, and the first thing I am going to do as your newest buddy, is get out of your way so you can show the world how you step in and save the day with your mighty power. Use it quick, because a fool and his power is soon parted, or was that a fool and his money? No matter same thing, isn't it? Accordingly, in consideration of Mr. Icaza's very ugly letter, it is clear that doing anything to assist or improve anything that might positively reflect on Mr. Icaza is something we would now avoid at all costs. Some people deserve all they earn, and I promise I will do everything I can to see you get what you deserve. You might just be surprised how good at it someone without merit or skill can be. We appreciate Pavel's friendly encouragement, and Leonard's openminded and professional courtesy. Leonard, we truly sympathize and would like to help, the door is always open; but there are just some people whose work is better left to decay, and Mr. Icaza has shown us our mistake in thinking MC was worth the significant erffort we were willing to put into it. There's always Worker. Roland must be Mr. Icaza's protege, just slinging abuse and saying no before the offer is even on the table; but he had already been identified as a cry baby and had no future with the Krew; mainly due to his private notes to our Marketing Manager blasting the MC Project and it's Maintainers. Making a change is one thing, betraying your own team and backbiting is another. Roland and Mr. Icaza should work well together. The rudeness of Roland, and the immature, trailer trash, abusivness of Mr. Icaza are duly noted. I'm sure the folks at Novell will be impressed with the way in which their Vice President has handled this situation. Representing a major corporation is a big responsibility, a 24/7 responsibility, and I am sure your representation of them in this matter will not go overlooked, or unrewarded considering Novell's objective of successfully gaining positive mindshare in the Open Source Community. With Mr. Icaza's representations style, we can all be sure a big impression will be made Remember what they were saying in the Annual Report, and those handouts. You did 'em proud! So you see, Mr. Icaza's note, and the follow up: The question is whether he can execute successfully on those, and everybit of his email rubbed me in the wrong way. Seen this pattern too manytimes in the past to recognize it. Really leave no decision to be made on my part. Will Mr. Icaza ever know if I can execute successfully? Only time will tell, but I will say he will definitely know if the answer is yes! How will he know? Well it *won't* be from an ugly letter from a stranger, I will tell you that much. As of 1800hrs, 5 June 2005, the Krusader Krew's offer of assistance to the Midnight Commander Project is withdrawn. We would like to apologize to the MC List for even suggesting you had a problem, dispite what your Maintainers, Developers, and Users may say. Mr. Icaza has set us straight and we honestly meant no harm with our , we realize now, foolish offer of aide. You can be sure that in future, should you need assistance or face difficulty, that we will not trouble you further with offers of generous help and unqualified support. Sincerely, W. T. Fudoki Wilkinson Public Relations Coordinator The Krusader Krew Miguel. Part 2 of 2 ENDS - End of Document ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
