Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?? Part 1 of 3
Found the problem - your list wants small posts. I will break up the response to your questions so it will get past your list limits. Terry Part 1 of 3-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org Greetings Leonard! Just received this morning's digest. Thanks for your note. Answers to your questions below:Message: 6Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:22 +0200From: Leonard den Ottolander [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel mc-devel@gnome.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainHello Terry,On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:05, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, as your own unit, so you can do your work in a supportive, positive, environment with good resources and good leadership?How do you see this task of maintainership?One way to put it would be: [A maintainer] oversees theproject development, formulate[s] sensible milestone targets andcommunicate[s] with the Developers[, Docs Team, Web SupportTeam, Marketing Team, and Project Leadership, as appropriate]about these targets and if they are [not] being met [to recommend,and if necessary take, appropriate steps to either readjust the targets or eliminate the cause of the failure to timely meet the targets], and [successfully complete regular] release[s as appropriate due toDeveloper progress, technological demands, or User demands or needs].Part 1 of 3 - END ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?? Part 2 of 3
Part 2 of 3-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org snip!Our Leadership asked me to be the Project Manager for the MC Project, should the Developers of MC so choose, because I am NOT a C programmer (even though I know and have used, taught, and developed applications in 14 other programming languages) so I will [notnecessarily do a lot of ] the [development] my[self]. That will be up to the MC Developers and the Leadership of the Krusader Project, who are advanced, expert, C Programmers with some pretty incredible credentials (they are the Lead Programmers for Zend, the makers of the PHP language, for example). Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Pavel confirmed this in our conversations. I have been asked to help set reasonable and attainable goals and use my skills to help the Developers meet those goals.Because of my extensive technology management experience, Project Management experience, product design experience, interface design research and coding experience, and a comprehensive understanding of the International software market, together with the fact that I am semi-retired and have the time to be available, our Leadership felt that I would be best able to work with the MC Development Team to make sure their needs were met and to act as a liaison between the MC Project and the Krusader Project, scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner.In other words, I'm an old guy who knows how to do all the different jobs and appreciates how hard it is for developers to do a good job when they are being annoyed by all kinds of other problems and pressures. I can make those problems go away.I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. I feel the midnightcommander is very much it's own project, and I don't feel verycomfortable about becoming a unit of anything.We agree, this is why the fact that the MC Project would remain a discreet, unique, entity is specifically mentioned. What the MC Developers choose to call it: unit, division, department, platoon, whatever - you decide - you will not be absorbed into the Krusader Krew automatically. Some of the MC Developers may wind up being asked to be members of the Krew, but if they are it will be because they have made the grade, just like all the current Krew members. It's not easy. It's not a right. But that is an entirely different issue and has no bearing on your status as a part of the MC Development [insert name here] - for now we'll just call it Team. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above.I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process,just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice.Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc. The MC Development Team will have the benefit of the Krew's infrastructure, and that comes in one flavor - the best we can possibly produce. If this is more than you are used to, sorry! As I said above, we are proud of our standards in every area of our Project, and think if given a chance, you would be proud of them as well. Part 2 of 3 - ENDS ___ Mc-devel mailing list http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/mc-devel
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project?? Part 3 of 3
Part 3 of 3-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org Part 3 of 3 snip! We are interested in helping the MC Team for two reasons: 1) We are all MC users and fans, have been for years. On my SUSE 9.2 workstation MC loads second, Krusader loads fifth. We want to see MC come out with a new version, and then another, and so on..., 2) We are in the File Management business. File Management is what we are about. Even though Krusader and MC are very different products, for very different usages in many cases, for different working environments; they are both Twin-Panel File Managers. Did I mention that this is what we do? We believe that there is considerable synergy between the two products now, and given the right environment and some time, that there could be a great deal of synergy between the two products. We cannot help but believe that if we get an additional development team of file management experts working with us, even in different parts of the house, that this will lead to breakthroughs in file management technology AND make both products better and more desirable - even if all the two different teams do is talk and compare war stories'. How many other file management developers do you guys know who are not on your team? We think having the two premier file management application development teams under the same roof creates a unique and powerful technology situation; and given the current strife and problems your team has been having (the rumors of the product dying, etc.) and our ability to make what we believe is a very attractive offer, on several levels, to help out and take over as Maintainer for MC from Pavel; we would be out of our heads not to at least ask. To at least see if anyone wanted to have a conversation about the possibility. After discussing the matter with Pavel over the past two weeks, we are more sure than ever that such an arrangement can have great potential, and great payoffs, for both teams. Pavel urged me to make contact with you developers and if you were willing, move forward. Given the situation, what would do? I wrote a note asking if anyone wanted to discuss making a change. It was the only choice.One of your developers seemed to be upset because what we are proposing is not gradual enough. The fact is, if the MC Developers want to accept our offer, then Pavel will transfer the Maintainership to me and we will move forward, and the MC Project will get a fresh start and be able to leave all the trouble of the past three years in the past, and we believe, move forward to a rewarding and gratifying future where all of us can break new technology ground and do what we like to do most - design and write killer software that users all over the world love! Any member of the MC Development Team that is not into that idea will not be happy around the Krew, and may want to think about some other hobby than writing free software. But there is really no gradual, incremental way to do this kind of thing. This is a chance that rarely comes up, we could never live with ourselves if we never even tried to see if it could work...What the project needs is a maintainer (or maintainers) that notnecessarily does a lot of development himself, but one that oversees theproject development, can formulate sensible milestone targets andcommunicate with the developers about these targets and if they arebeing met, and do an occasional release.I hope I have covered these concerns.I'm not sure this is what you are suggesting.Be sure. This is exactly what we are suggesting! If you would like to discuss this, or any other File Management related issues, Skype me (Skype ID = fudoki) and we'll chat. I'm a fellow programmer, and a fellow lover of good software that people don't have to buy from the evil empire and sacrifice their firstborn to obtain and use! We like being the best at what we do. Not so long ago the MC Team was the best at what they do. It can be that way again. Where will you find a Maintainer that understands you better than us?You guys deserve, IOHO, a chance to shine again. We offer you that chance under the best conditions we can come up with. It the same as we have, which is the very best we can do - and believe me, it ain't bad! Thanks for your note and please don't hesitate to write or Skype if you have any more questions, concerns, etc. If you and some of the other Developers want to arrange a conference call with me and one or more of our Developers to get a feel for our programming standards and what we expect in terms of professional competence; I will be happy to facilitate this. That's what I am here for - to be a facilitator and liaison. Just let me know.With warm regards,Terry -END of DOCUMENT ___ Mc-devel mailing list http
Re: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??
Hi Terry, On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 21:22, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Well, as such this is not true. I see no problem with a maintainer actively participating in the development process as a programmer, but his first objective should be managing the project. scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner. I'm not sure we should be managed and scheduled in conjunction at this point. Of course I have no problem with people from both teams joining in the development of the other project. As I have expressed before, time tables are not important to me. Milestone targets are. We can always adjust the next target depending on whether we got to the first at a snails pace or like a greased lightning ;) . I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above. I'm not quite sure which services you refer to, except of course for you managing the project. Care to elaborate? I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process, just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice. Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Let's focus on this aspect then ;-) . Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc. You cover quite a few different aspects with this blanket statement. Maybe we don't need two of everything, but we might need two of some. F.e. I can imagine we'll use the same CMS for our websites, but we might want to use a layout with a different kind of blue so people will be able to distinguish between the two projects. If we'd decide to move from Savannah to Sourceforge we would do this as a different project anyway. I don't think anyone on this list wants the midnight commander to become a sub item on the Krusader page. We'll need a separate CVS and bugzilla as we have a different code base. I'm not quite sure how you think this can be integrated. And as these are separate entities anyway I don't see how the two standards would obstruct you in maintaining the project. It's not like one bugzilla is much different from the other. And both Sourceforge and Savannah share the oddity of having separate sections for bugs and patches (I've always thought that every valid bug report needs a patch eventually, so I've always found this distinction rather artificial not to say confusing). Regarding the documentation, mc currently only comes with man pages and an internal help file. Do you suggest we start using docbook instead? And then there are coding standards. Do you suggest we synchronize these as well? Although I personally don't like to use a space between a function and its parameters this seems to be the standard used in the mc codebase. I don't think anybody is willing to go over the whole codebase and fix this. The MC Development Team will have the benefit of the Krew's infrastructure, AFAICT Krusader is just another (not meant to be demeaning) project hosted on Sourceforge. Could you be more specific on what the Krew's infrastructure is exactly, and how we could benefit from it (more than w we do from bugzilla and CVS on Savannah, and the mailing lists at gnome.org)? and that comes in one flavor - the best we can possibly produce. If this is more than you are used to, sorry! Well, I agree the current scattering of mc web pages is a disgrace, but wrt to bugzilla and CVS the Savannah infrastructure is just fine. We believe that there is considerable synergy between the two products now, and given the right environment and some time, that there could be a great deal of synergy between the two products. Given time maybe, yes. But I don't think many mc developers are interested to have a look at Krusader's codebase at this point in time. Which I think is a necessity if you want to share code between the projects. We cannot help but believe that if we get an additional development team of file management experts working with us, even in different parts of the house, that this will lead to breakthroughs in file management technology Wow g. I appreciate your enthusiasm but I don't think you should have such high hopes ;) . I personally enjoy the midnight commander because of its versatility and the twin panel approach which is an old and proven concept. I see the development of the midnight commander as evolutionary. Improvements in the VFSes, the subshell, syntax highlighting, code cleanup and hopefully extended charset support in the foreseeable future. AND
Fwd: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??
Leonard, Due to some problems with Gmail yesterday, it appears that this may not have actually been sent, so I am re-sending it. If this turns out to be a duplicate, please disregard. Thanks! Terry-- Forwarded message --From: Fudoki Wilkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jun 4, 2005 3:22 PMSubject: Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel List mc-devel@gnome.org Greetings Leonard! Just received this morning's digest. Thanks for your note. Answers to your questions below:Message: 6Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:22 +0200From: Leonard den Ottolander [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel mc-devel@gnome.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainHello Terry,On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:05, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, as your own unit, so you can do your work in a supportive, positive, environment with good resources and good leadership?How do you see this task of maintainership?One way to put it would be: [A maintainer] oversees theproject development, formulate[s] sensible milestone targets andcommunicate[s] with the Developers[, Docs Team, Web SupportTeam, Marketing Team, and Project Leadership, as appropriate]about these targets and if they are [not] being met [to recommend,and if necessary take, appropriate steps to either readjust the targets or eliminate the cause of the failure to timely meet the targets], and [successfully complete regular] release[s as appropriate due toDeveloper progress, technological demands, or User demands or needs].Our Leadership asked me to be the Project Manager for the MC Project, should the Developers of MC so choose, because I am NOT a C programmer (even though I know and have used, taught, and developed applications in 14 other programming languages) so I will [notnecessarily do a lot of ] the [development] my[self]. That will be up to the MC Developers and the Leadership of the Krusader Project, who are advanced, expert, C Programmers with some pretty incredible credentials (they are the Lead Programmers for Zend, the makers of the PHP language, for example). Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Pavel confirmed this in our conversations. I have been asked to help set reasonable and attainable goals and use my skills to help the Developers meet those goals.Because of my extensive technology management experience, Project Management experience, product design experience, interface design research and coding experience, and a comprehensive understanding of the International software market, together with the fact that I am semi-retired and have the time to be available, our Leadership felt that I would be best able to work with the MC Development Team to make sure their needs were met and to act as a liaison between the MC Project and the Krusader Project, scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner.In other words, I'm an old guy who knows how to do all the different jobs and appreciates how hard it is for developers to do a good job when they are being annoyed by all kinds of other problems and pressures. I can make those problems go away.I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. I feel the midnightcommander is very much it's own project, and I don't feel verycomfortable about becoming a unit of anything.We agree, this is why the fact that the MC Project would remain a discreet, unique, entity is specifically mentioned. What the MC Developers choose to call it: unit, division, department, platoon, whatever - you decide - you will not be absorbed into the Krusader Krew automatically. Some of the MC Developers may wind up being asked to be members of the Krew, but if they are it will be because they have made the grade, just like all the current Krew members. It's not easy. It's not a right. But that is an entirely different issue and has no bearing on your status as a part of the MC Development [insert name here] - for now we'll just call it Team. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above.I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process,just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice.Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc
Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??
Greetings Leonard! Just received this morning's digest. Thanks for your note. Answers to your questions below:Message: 6Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:03:22 +0200From: Leonard den Ottolander [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: New Maintainer for MC Project??To: MC Devel mc-devel@gnome.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plainHello Terry,On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 15:05, Fudoki Wilkinson wrote: I have also been talking to our leadership, and to Pavel Roskin, about offering to become the new Maintainer of the Midnight Commander Project, and Pavel has encouraged me to do so. Would the developers of MC like to have a conversation about joining the Krusader family, as your own unit, so you can do your work in a supportive, positive, environment with good resources and good leadership?How do you see this task of maintainership?One way to put it would be: [A maintainer] oversees theproject development, formulate[s] sensible milestone targets andcommunicate[s] with the Developers[, Docs Team, Web SupportTeam, Marketing Team, and Project Leadership, as appropriate]about these targets and if they are [not] being met [to recommend,and if necessary take, appropriate steps to either readjust the targets or eliminate the cause of the failure to timely meet the targets], and [successfully complete regular] release[s as appropriate due toDeveloper progress, technological demands, or User demands or needs].Our Leadership asked me to be the Project Manager for the MC Project, should the Developers of MC so choose, because I am NOT a C programmer (even though I know and have used, taught, and developed applications in 14 other programming languages) so I will [notnecessarily do a lot of ] the [development] my[self]. That will be up to the MC Developers and the Leadership of the Krusader Project, who are advanced, expert, C Programmers with some pretty incredible credentials (they are the Lead Programmers for Zend, the makers of the PHP language, for example). Our research indicated that the Maintainer being saddled with programming duties had actually not been helpful in the MC Project. Pavel confirmed this in our conversations. I have been asked to help set reasonable and attainable goals and use my skills to help the Developers meet those goals.Because of my extensive technology management experience, Project Management experience, product design experience, interface design research and coding experience, and a comprehensive understanding of the International software market, together with the fact that I am semi-retired and have the time to be available, our Leadership felt that I would be best able to work with the MC Development Team to make sure their needs were met and to act as a liaison between the MC Project and the Krusader Project, scheduling and deploying the support personnel to make sure both Development Teams have the resources they need in a timely manner.In other words, I'm an old guy who knows how to do all the different jobs and appreciates how hard it is for developers to do a good job when they are being annoyed by all kinds of other problems and pressures. I can make those problems go away.I can also guarantee that the MC Team, should they accept our offer, will be able to enjoy the excellent, fun, production environment that the Krew calls home. I feel the midnightcommander is very much it's own project, and I don't feel verycomfortable about becoming a unit of anything.We agree, this is why the fact that the MC Project would remain a discreet, unique, entity is specifically mentioned. What the MC Developers choose to call it: unit, division, department, platoon, whatever - you decide - you will not be absorbed into the Krusader Krew automatically. Some of the MC Developers may wind up being asked to be members of the Krew, but if they are it will be because they have made the grade, just like all the current Krew members. It's not easy. It's not a right. But that is an entirely different issue and has no bearing on your status as a part of the MC Development [insert name here] - for now we'll just call it Team. The MC Development Team will be separate from the Krew, yet will have the benefit of the Krew's services, in the different units mentioned above.I don't think we need a new infrastructure for the development process,just some fine tuning of the existing would suffice.Well Leonard, we just have an honest difference of opinion here. Simply put, we are not interested in maintaining two sets of standards, two different looks, two of everything when it comes to websites, documentation, etc. The MC Development Team will have the benefit of the Krew's infrastructure, and that comes in one flavor - the best we can possibly produce. If this is more than you are used to, sorry! As I said above, we are proud of our standards in every area of our Project, and think if given a chance, you would be proud of them as well.We are interested in helping the MC Team for two reasons: 1) We
