Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Tom Hargrave]

Sure, how do you think they pay for the place?

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Curt Raymond
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:02 AM
To: Diesel List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

Last year in Vegas I was walking through the Belaggio with some friends and
happened by a roulette table. I'd never played roulette before and knew one
of my friends was into different table games so asked him to help me.
If I remember correctly I ended up putting $20 on even, my friend said "Oh
thats a mistake see because thats your worst odds on the..." as it hit and I
walked away with (again IIRC) $80.

I gamble very little, if I stay at any game I'll lose (because the odds
really are against you) but I've found if I sort of graze the games I'll do
okay.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:38:52 +
From: "Jeff Zedic" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Actually your best odds are with the table and card games. If you go
to the PBS website you may still be able to watch a documentary on the
slot machine industry.

 Old mechanical slots were much different than the electronic ones of
today. Today's machines use operant conditioning to mess with you. A
lot of psychology is used to keep you at the machine.

 In this documentary they show several of the designers of slots
machine inadvertently saying that slots are for suckers.

Your best odds of a win?.roulette


Zedic


  
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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Curt Raymond]

Last year in Vegas I was walking through the Belaggio with some friends and 
happened by a roulette table. I'd never played roulette before and knew one of 
my friends was into different table games so asked him to help me.
If I remember correctly I ended up putting $20 on even, my friend said "Oh 
thats a mistake see because thats your worst odds on the..." as it hit and I 
walked away with (again IIRC) $80.

I gamble very little, if I stay at any game I'll lose (because the odds really 
are against you) but I've found if I sort of graze the games I'll do okay.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:38:52 +
From: "Jeff Zedic" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Message-ID:
    
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Actually your best odds are with the table and card games. If you go
to the PBS website you may still be able to watch a documentary on the
slot machine industry.

 Old mechanical slots were much different than the electronic ones of
today. Today's machines use operant conditioning to mess with you. A
lot of psychology is used to keep you at the machine.

 In this documentary they show several of the designers of slots
machine inadvertently saying that slots are for suckers.

Your best odds of a win?.roulette


Zedic


  
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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Tom Hargrave]

And casinos have no motivation to rig the machines - the odds are already in
their favor.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Allan Streib
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:52 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

"Luther"  said:

> A trick to always winning on the slot machines is to watch and find the 
> person that plays for 30min-1hr or more and doesn't win.  When they 
> finally get frustrated and leave, sit in their seat and play.  It will 
> probably hit something for you fairly quickly.

The casinos like you think so, but each play is a new random chance. 
It's not affected by prior plays any more than flipping a coin is
affected by prior flips.  Unless, of course, the slots machines are
rigged.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Allan Streib]

"Luther"  said:

> A trick to always winning on the slot machines is to watch and find the 
> person that plays for 30min-1hr or more and doesn't win.  When they 
> finally get frustrated and leave, sit in their seat and play.  It will 
> probably hit something for you fairly quickly.

The casinos like you think so, but each play is a new random chance. 
It's not affected by prior plays any more than flipping a coin is
affected by prior flips.  Unless, of course, the slots machines are
rigged.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Mitch Haley]

Tom Hargrave wrote:

Actually, the house has a 1/2 percent advantage over you and that's assuming
you are an absolute perfect player, but none of us are. Card counting used
to work because the actual hand to hand advantage swings back and for with
the percentage of face cards (10 - A) left in the deck.


The rules vary, and with them, the odds. You really have to look, but last I 
knew there were a few smaller casinos in Vegas running a positive game for 
blackjack counting. I haven't read the blackjack group on USENET in a while, but 
they usually kept pretty good track of where the rules were best, and where the 
shoes were the smallest and most deeply penetrated before shuffling.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Rich Thomas]

Get the book Bringing Down the House about a bunch of MIT folks who 
turned that activity into a very lucrative business, and caused major 
changes in the "gaming" industry.  It's a fun read.


--R

Tom Hargrave wrote:

Actually, the house has a 1/2 percent advantage over you and that's assuming
you are an absolute perfect player, but none of us are. Card counting used
to work because the actual hand to hand advantage swings back and for with
the percentage of face cards (10 - A) left in the deck.

You could use card counting to leverage this advantage and bet accordingly
when you could count cards - that was back when they dealt from 1 or 2
decks. These days they deal from a 6, 12 or more deck shoe and you'd have to
play & count from the time the dealer starts dealing from a fresh set of
decks until the odds stacked in your favor. And even then, there is a 50%
chance that the count will go in the wrong direction. In other words,
multi-deck shoes make card counting very difficult. More complex card
counting schemes have been developed but I don't know if they work and don't
care to try.

  



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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Donald Snook]

Zedic wrote: " Your best odds of a win?.roulette"

If you bet black or red, then roulette is not that bad, but it is still less 
than 50-50% because there is the zero/double zero.  The best odds in the house, 
i.e. closest to 50% is craps and only on the pass/come line and it is still 
less than 50-50.


Donald H. Snook

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Tom Hargrave]

Actually, the house has a 1/2 percent advantage over you and that's assuming
you are an absolute perfect player, but none of us are. Card counting used
to work because the actual hand to hand advantage swings back and for with
the percentage of face cards (10 - A) left in the deck.

You could use card counting to leverage this advantage and bet accordingly
when you could count cards - that was back when they dealt from 1 or 2
decks. These days they deal from a 6, 12 or more deck shoe and you'd have to
play & count from the time the dealer starts dealing from a fresh set of
decks until the odds stacked in your favor. And even then, there is a 50%
chance that the count will go in the wrong direction. In other words,
multi-deck shoes make card counting very difficult. More complex card
counting schemes have been developed but I don't know if they work and don't
care to try.

Some players count during the deal with the belief that the last couple of
rounds dealt affect the next one. This just does not work these days because
the last couple of rounds dealt represent a fairly small percentage of all
the cards in the shoe and although the count is true, the reality is that
now the advantage swings through a much narrower range.

It really does not matter where I play poker. I've watched the tables out of
curiosity and they replace the shoe with a fresh one before it's completely
dealt out.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:23 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

Jeff Zedic wrote:

> Your best odds of a win?.roulette

How many green numbers are on the wheels over there, one or two?

There are still a few casinos in the USA that run a slightly positive
expected 
value game of blackjack, assuming you play perfect basic strategy and can
count.
Make a mistake now and then, and the odds go against you.
(I'm talking less than 1/2 percent edge today, it's not like it was in 1960)

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Mitch Haley]

Jeff Zedic wrote:


Your best odds of a win?.roulette


How many green numbers are on the wheels over there, one or two?

There are still a few casinos in the USA that run a slightly positive expected 
value game of blackjack, assuming you play perfect basic strategy and can count.

Make a mistake now and then, and the odds go against you.
(I'm talking less than 1/2 percent edge today, it's not like it was in 1960)

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Mitch Haley]

Tom Hargrave wrote:

I've heard that theory and believe that some people made a lot of money
selling books that stated the same thing along with "how to beat Black
Jack", etc, etc.


Both my high school math teachers fancied themselves gamblers to a certain 
extent. My geometry teacher liked blackjack, subscribed to the theory that wins 
came in streaks and you needed to keep upping your bet when you were winning.
I thought he was nuts, figuring that if you just won four in a row, you probably 
used up a bunch of good cards and the count was now against you. I'd listen to 
him at the horse track, but I never wanted to go to the casino with him.


My algebra teacher liked slots. It was his belief that different machines had 
different odds, and the only positive expected value game in the casino was the 
few good slot machines. He also said that if it was slow in the slot room, a 
casino employee would be sent to play a good machine for a while, people would 
see him winning and start playing the bad machines. The trick was to take over 
his machine when he left, not to play the other machines.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Jeff Zedic]

Actually your best odds are with the table and card games. If you go
to the PBS website you may still be able to watch a documentary on the
slot machine industry.

 Old mechanical slots were much different than the electronic ones of
today. Today's machines use operant conditioning to mess with you. A
lot of psychology is used to keep you at the machine.

 In this documentary they show several of the designers of slots
machine inadvertently saying that slots are for suckers.

Your best odds of a win?.roulette


Zedic

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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Tom Hargrave]

I've heard that theory and believe that some people made a lot of money
selling books that stated the same thing along with "how to beat Black
Jack", etc, etc.

A slot machine is setup to give the exact same odds with every pull. There
is no sweet spot or cycle the machine goes through. It's all chance, the
probability of a win is the same every time you pull the handle and the long
term odds are against you.

At least with poker (Texas Hold-em), I'm playing against other people at the
table and not against the house. The house still makes their money by
drawing a percentage of each pot, but the house tends to be funded by the
less experienced players.

Speaking of poker, I can see inexperienced players from a mile away because
they don't understand the budget needed to stay with the game. Many times,
I've sat at a Texas Hold-em table and watched a string of players with $20 -
$40 sit down and loose it all in 10 - 15 minutes. You need a minimum of
$120.00 for a 2-4 table, a minimum of $240.00 for a 4-8 table and a minimum
of $300.00 for a 5-10 table. Sit down with less and you might as well play
the slots.

I'm not saying I don't loose - I do. I'm just not up to blindly throwing my
money into a machine just to watch the lights flash. At least when I lose,
it's to a better human player!

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Luther
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:15 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

A trick to always winning on the slot machines is to watch and find the 
person that plays for 30min-1hr or more and doesn't win.  When they 
finally get frustrated and leave, sit in their seat and play.  It will 
probably hit something for you fairly quickly.

Luther

Donald Snook wrote:
> Tom Hargrave: "Yep, with slots and table games you might as well go and
deposit your money
> directly in their bank."
>
> I have never (currently knocking wood) left a casino not having won
something and I play slots.  Now, I am not talking about winning a lot.  The
worst I ever did was winning only $10 by the time I left.  But, I have never
lost money playing slots.  I have won $3500 (net profit), $2100, and several
other times when I have won anywhere between $200-700 (again net profit).  I
only play quarter wheel of fortune and dollar wheel of fortune or dollar
slots with multiple payouts AND I ALWAYS bet the maximum.  My wife and I
were in vegas last year and I won enough on the dollar wheel of fortune to
pay for the whole trip (airfare, food, hotel) and left with $500.
>
> On the same trip, there was a guy next to me playing the .25 Wheel of
Fortune Progressive.  The max bet was .75 (three quarters). After about 30
minutes of playing he hit the three wheel of fortune symbols
(Jackpot/Progressive win), but he was only playing two quarters. He won
$25,000, but if he would have put in the third quarter he would have won the
progressive pot which was just under $1 Million.  No one had the heart to
tell the guy how much he missed out on, because he was so excited to have
won $25,000.
>
> On another trip, I was sitting next to an old lady (that's pretty much
what you see when playing slots) and she won $150,000.  I was out of my mind
excited for her. She was acting like it was not big deal.  After getting all
the paperwork done, she sat back down and started playing again.  I asked
her why she wasn't more excited and she said that win, only put her ahead by
$20,000 for the year. So, she was DOWN $130,000 for the year before that.
>
> In case, you think I am risking a bunch of money to do this, the most I
ever bring into the casino is $200.
>
> Donald H. Snook
-- 
 Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (281,xxx mi)
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x59,xxx mi) BioBeast
'82 300CD (183 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine "The Accordion"


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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Luther]

A trick to always winning on the slot machines is to watch and find the 
person that plays for 30min-1hr or more and doesn't win.  When they 
finally get frustrated and leave, sit in their seat and play.  It will 
probably hit something for you fairly quickly.


Luther

Donald Snook wrote:

Tom Hargrave: "Yep, with slots and table games you might as well go and deposit 
your money
directly in their bank."

I have never (currently knocking wood) left a casino not having won something 
and I play slots.  Now, I am not talking about winning a lot.  The worst I ever 
did was winning only $10 by the time I left.  But, I have never lost money 
playing slots.  I have won $3500 (net profit), $2100, and several other times 
when I have won anywhere between $200-700 (again net profit).  I only play 
quarter wheel of fortune and dollar wheel of fortune or dollar slots with 
multiple payouts AND I ALWAYS bet the maximum.  My wife and I were in vegas 
last year and I won enough on the dollar wheel of fortune to pay for the whole 
trip (airfare, food, hotel) and left with $500.

On the same trip, there was a guy next to me playing the .25 Wheel of Fortune 
Progressive.  The max bet was .75 (three quarters). After about 30 minutes of 
playing he hit the three wheel of fortune symbols (Jackpot/Progressive win), 
but he was only playing two quarters. He won $25,000, but if he would have put 
in the third quarter he would have won the progressive pot which was just under 
$1 Million.  No one had the heart to tell the guy how much he missed out on, 
because he was so excited to have won $25,000.

On another trip, I was sitting next to an old lady (that's pretty much what you 
see when playing slots) and she won $150,000.  I was out of my mind excited for 
her. She was acting like it was not big deal.  After getting all the paperwork 
done, she sat back down and started playing again.  I asked her why she wasn't 
more excited and she said that win, only put her ahead by $20,000 for the year. 
So, she was DOWN $130,000 for the year before that.

In case, you think I am risking a bunch of money to do this, the most I ever 
bring into the casino is $200.

Donald H. Snook

--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (281,xxx mi)
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x59,xxx mi) BioBeast
'82 300CD (183 kmi)
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine "The Accordion"


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Re: [MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Gary Hurst]

i don't play slots, but i understand that many of them do offer very high
percentage payouts and if played optimally leave the house with a very
minimal advantage over the player.

i like poker myself.

guess that's why the casino offers a lot of variety so that anyone who wants
to gamble to find something they like to play.

i like tunica personally.  low rollers.  low pressure.  very nice people,
both in terms of the players and the employees.

one night, the waitress asks me if i want a drink and i say "nah, i'm really
in the mood for rainbow sherbert thought, but i'm too lazy to get up and
find some".

5 minutes later a bowl of rainbow sherbert shows up at my table at no charge
to me.

and they also have a skeet shooting range on the grounds as well as a video
arcade for the kids!


On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Donald Snook  wrote:

> Tom Hargrave: "Yep, with slots and table games you might as well go and
> deposit your money
> directly in their bank."
>
> I have never (currently knocking wood) left a casino not having won
> something and I play slots.  Now, I am not talking about winning a lot.  The
> worst I ever did was winning only $10 by the time I left.  But, I have never
> lost money playing slots.  I have won $3500 (net profit), $2100, and several
> other times when I have won anywhere between $200-700 (again net profit).  I
> only play quarter wheel of fortune and dollar wheel of fortune or dollar
> slots with multiple payouts AND I ALWAYS bet the maximum.  My wife and I
> were in vegas last year and I won enough on the dollar wheel of fortune to
> pay for the whole trip (airfare, food, hotel) and left with $500.
>
> On the same trip, there was a guy next to me playing the .25 Wheel of
> Fortune Progressive.  The max bet was .75 (three quarters). After about 30
> minutes of playing he hit the three wheel of fortune symbols
> (Jackpot/Progressive win), but he was only playing two quarters. He won
> $25,000, but if he would have put in the third quarter he would have won the
> progressive pot which was just under $1 Million.  No one had the heart to
> tell the guy how much he missed out on, because he was so excited to have
> won $25,000.
>
> On another trip, I was sitting next to an old lady (that's pretty much what
> you see when playing slots) and she won $150,000.  I was out of my mind
> excited for her. She was acting like it was not big deal.  After getting all
> the paperwork done, she sat back down and started playing again.  I asked
> her why she wasn't more excited and she said that win, only put her ahead by
> $20,000 for the year. So, she was DOWN $130,000 for the year before that.
>
> In case, you think I am risking a bunch of money to do this, the most I
> ever bring into the casino is $200.
>
> Donald H. Snook
>
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[MBZ] Gambling was Re: math

[Donald Snook]

Tom Hargrave: "Yep, with slots and table games you might as well go and deposit 
your money
directly in their bank."

I have never (currently knocking wood) left a casino not having won something 
and I play slots.  Now, I am not talking about winning a lot.  The worst I ever 
did was winning only $10 by the time I left.  But, I have never lost money 
playing slots.  I have won $3500 (net profit), $2100, and several other times 
when I have won anywhere between $200-700 (again net profit).  I only play 
quarter wheel of fortune and dollar wheel of fortune or dollar slots with 
multiple payouts AND I ALWAYS bet the maximum.  My wife and I were in vegas 
last year and I won enough on the dollar wheel of fortune to pay for the whole 
trip (airfare, food, hotel) and left with $500.

On the same trip, there was a guy next to me playing the .25 Wheel of Fortune 
Progressive.  The max bet was .75 (three quarters). After about 30 minutes of 
playing he hit the three wheel of fortune symbols (Jackpot/Progressive win), 
but he was only playing two quarters. He won $25,000, but if he would have put 
in the third quarter he would have won the progressive pot which was just under 
$1 Million.  No one had the heart to tell the guy how much he missed out on, 
because he was so excited to have won $25,000.

On another trip, I was sitting next to an old lady (that's pretty much what you 
see when playing slots) and she won $150,000.  I was out of my mind excited for 
her. She was acting like it was not big deal.  After getting all the paperwork 
done, she sat back down and started playing again.  I asked her why she wasn't 
more excited and she said that win, only put her ahead by $20,000 for the year. 
So, she was DOWN $130,000 for the year before that.

In case, you think I am risking a bunch of money to do this, the most I ever 
bring into the casino is $200.

Donald H. Snook

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