Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:36:55 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John: pilot bearings are self lubricated, usually oilight bronze, and rarely fail. On both the W115 220D I had and my present W123, the pilot bearing for the input shaft of the manual transmission is a sealed ball bearing. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
That makes good sense , I believe the input bearing are weak on the 5 speed getrag's , anyone with some experience. Wheredo I find a workshop manual for the gearbox? I see the MBUSA W124 CD'd don't cover the gearbox . PEter -Original Message- From: David Bruckmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 October 2007 01:18 To: Mercedes List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? Since yours is a manual transmission, is it possible that a bearing in the transmission (at one or the other end of the input shaft) is shot, which could then reliably vibrate at a consistent engine RPM when the clutch is engaged. When the clutch is disengaged, the vibration would disappear... D. Message: 6 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:00:24 +0200 From: Peter Merle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim There vibration type sounds/feelings are difficult to describe in the English language ! If I could spell it it would be grr , the frequency seems higher than the firing rate of the injectors and appears to be of a mechanical nature as opposed to a combustion thing . I can even replicate this on reverse torque ( engine driven by wheels - downhill travel even when engine switched off). The sound is quite powerfull and does not feel like a unbalanced flywheel/propshaft. It has a high Q value of about 10 ( for engineers they will understand ). The resonance is over a vary narrow bandwidth 1600- 1800 rpm. Outside of this range is engine is silky smooth with good power delivery Peter -- David Bruckmann Systems Leader, North American Outsourcing Development US Operations Transcontinental Printing - Newspaper Group Suite 219, 47102 Mission Falls Ct., Fremont, CA 94539 Tel +1 510-440-0198 Fax +1 510-440-0100 Cell +1 510-579-9920 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
Peter Merle wrote: That makes good sense , I believe the input bearing are weak on the 5 speed getrag's , anyone with some experience. I own a 190E 2.3 16v that's mechanically excellent, except for the noise the tranny makes when you lift throttle in any gear other than the 1:1 fifth gear. Sounds OK with input shaft locked to the output, but there seems to be something wrong with a countershaft bearing, possibly a thrust bearing as it only happens on overrun. I just tried to google the manual, but came up blank except for a suggestion that they may have been available on microfiche from MBZ. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
Haynes Manual #697 ISBN 0 85696 697 5..Titled: Mercedes-Benz Diesel 123 series Automotive Repair Manual1976 thru1985 200D 220D 240D 240TD 300D 300CD 300TD Haynes Publishing Group 1986 1987. -- Chapter 7 Part A page 136-146 of this manual has a very good, very detailed description of how to rebuild both 4 and 5 speed manual transmissions for these cars. The illustrations and exploded views are exceptional. You may be able to order this manual from www.abebooks.com Gerry Archer '83 300D and 240D -- - Original Message - From: Peter Merle [EMAIL PROTECTED] That makes good sense , I believe the input bearing are weak on the 5 speed getrag's , anyone with some experience. Wheredo I find a workshop manual for the gearbox? I see the MBUSA W124 CD'd don't cover the gearbox . PEter -Original Message- From: David Bruckmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Since yours is a manual transmission, is it possible that a bearing in the transmission (at one or the other end of the input shaft) is shot, which could then reliably vibrate at a consistent engine RPM when the clutch is engaged. When the clutch is disengaged, the vibration would disappear... D. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
I guess its not the pilot bearing then , the puzzle is that its dependant on engine rpm and not road speed . Peter -Original Message- From: Kaleb C. Striplin, work [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 October 2007 16:49 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? I had a 240D with a bad throw out bearing that screamed real loud. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
In most manual transmission cars, the pilot bearing is just a bronze bushing. I don't remember what Mercedes uses because the last MB clutch I had apart was in a 1972 220D. When the clutch pedal is released, the flywheel, pilot bearing, clutch input shaft rotate as one mass regardless of the shape the pilot bearing is in it will not make any noise. The pilot bearing comes into play when the clutch pedal is pressed down. It keeps the input shaft centered. One symptom of a worn pilot bearing is slight vibration felt through the pedal but I've never hear of one making a noise even with the clutch pedal pressed down. Also, a worn pilot bearing usually does not make a vibration because the clutch tends to self center as it's released. The vibration could be a damaged clutch friction disk but you'd need to have a chunk missing from the disk. Is the vibration present at 1700 RPM with the car in N the clutch pedal released? Is it also present at 1700 RPM with the car in gear the clutch pedal pressed down? I'm asking because one test has the clutch friction disk and the transmission input shaft spinning while the other does not. If the vibration is the same with both tests then I suggest you look elsewhere. The throwout bearing will screach if it runs dry, but only when there is pressure on the clutch pedal, and the pedal does not have to be pressed down. With no pressure on the clutch pedal, the throwout bearing is spinning free. Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Peter Merle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/16/07 01:26 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I guess its not the pilot bearing then , the puzzle is that its dependant on engine rpm and not road speed . Peter -Original Message- From: Kaleb C. Striplin, work [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 October 2007 16:49 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? I had a 240D with a bad throw out bearing that screamed real loud. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
Tom, the vibration or really it should be called a resonance occurs only when drivetrain is loaded. It appears to come from the whole drivetrain. It does not occur when vehicle is not moving ie in Neutal or in Gear with clutch depressed. It's a resonance which is very similar to a vehicle that is driven in to high a gear such as 1200 rpm in top gear trying to lug up a hill. Resonance is dependant on accelerator position or how much torque is delivered by engine. Peter -Original Message- From: Tom Hargrave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 October 2007 10:20 To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? In most manual transmission cars, the pilot bearing is just a bronze bushing. I don't remember what Mercedes uses because the last MB clutch I had apart was in a 1972 220D. When the clutch pedal is released, the flywheel, pilot bearing, clutch input shaft rotate as one mass regardless of the shape the pilot bearing is in it will not make any noise. The pilot bearing comes into play when the clutch pedal is pressed down. It keeps the input shaft centered. One symptom of a worn pilot bearing is slight vibration felt through the pedal but I've never hear of one making a noise even with the clutch pedal pressed down. Also, a worn pilot bearing usually does not make a vibration because the clutch tends to self center as it's released. The vibration could be a damaged clutch friction disk but you'd need to have a chunk missing from the disk. Is the vibration present at 1700 RPM with the car in N the clutch pedal released? Is it also present at 1700 RPM with the car in gear the clutch pedal pressed down? I'm asking because one test has the clutch friction disk and the transmission input shaft spinning while the other does not. If the vibration is the same with both tests then I suggest you look elsewhere. The throwout bearing will screach if it runs dry, but only when there is pressure on the clutch pedal, and the pedal does not have to be pressed down. With no pressure on the clutch pedal, the throwout bearing is spinning free. Tom www.kegkits.com Original Message From: Peter Merle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/16/07 01:26 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I guess its not the pilot bearing then , the puzzle is that its dependant on engine rpm and not road speed . Peter -Original Message- From: Kaleb C. Striplin, work [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 October 2007 16:49 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? I had a 240D with a bad throw out bearing that screamed real loud. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
the vibration or really it should be called a resonance occurs only when drivetrain is loaded. It appears to come from the whole drivetrain. It does not occur when vehicle is not moving ie in Neutal or in Gear with clutch depressed. It's a resonance which is very similar to a vehicle that is driven in to high a gear such as 1200 rpm in top gear trying to lug up a hill. Resonance is dependant on accelerator position or how much torque is delivered by engine. Sounds more like an injection problem, or a weak cylinder. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
Jim There vibration type sounds/feelings are difficult to describe in the English language ! If I could spell it it would be grr , the frequency seems higher than the firing rate of the injectors and appears to be of a mechanical nature as opposed to a combustion thing . I can even replicate this on reverse torque ( engine driven by wheels - downhill travel even when engine switched off). The sound is quite powerfull and does not feel like a unbalanced flywheel/propshaft. It has a high Q value of about 10 ( for engineers they will understand ). The resonance is over a vary narrow bandwidth 1600- 1800 rpm. Outside of this range is engine is silky smooth with good power delivery Peter -Original Message- From: Jim Cathey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 October 2007 15:06 To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? the vibration or really it should be called a resonance occurs only when drivetrain is loaded. It appears to come from the whole drivetrain. It does not occur when vehicle is not moving ie in Neutal or in Gear with clutch depressed. It's a resonance which is very similar to a vehicle that is driven in to high a gear such as 1200 rpm in top gear trying to lug up a hill. Resonance is dependant on accelerator position or how much torque is delivered by engine. Sounds more like an injection problem, or a weak cylinder. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
even replicate this on reverse torque ( engine driven by wheels - downhill travel even when engine switched off). The sound is quite powerfull and does not feel like a unbalanced flywheel/propshaft. That's a big clue. Not for me, unfortunately, but it ought to tell somebody a lot. If it was clutch or pilot bearing related I would expect that it could be teased away by operating the clutch. I had a car with an unbalanced something, and I'd just run the clutch a few times until the thing got into a sweet spot and didn't do it anymore. Until the next time you shifted up into high. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
Failed motor or tranny mount? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. Jim C: I think you are reporting a throw out bearing failure, not pilot bearing John: pilot bearings are self lubricated, usually oilight bronze, and rarely fail. I would look at the center support bearing assy on the driveshaft for the source of your vibration. But basically, just ignore it until it gets bad enough to find it. Good luck, Jim Friesen Phoenix AZ 79 300SD, 264 K miles 98 ML 320, 152 K miles ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. I think you are reporting a throw out bearing failure, not pilot bearing I mis-spoke, as the problem most definitely _was_ the pilot bearing. It shrieked at idle with the clutch out and in neutral, the clutch in-and-out dance was, now that I think about it, how you got it to _stop_ shrieking! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure?
I had a 240D with a bad throw out bearing that screamed real loud. --- Kaleb C. Striplin Cox Auto Trader 730 FSBO Supervisor - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Pilot bearing failure? A friend of mine suggested that my W124 ( 5 speed maual ) drivetrain vibration ( when loaded at 1700 rpm ) could be related to a failing pilot bearing - that's the bearing that supports the input shaft of the manual gearbox. What are the typical symptons of a failed pilot bearing? The one time I had it there was nasty shrieking, intermittently, when you put the clutch in. This was on a Camaro. The bearing isn't moving when the clutch is out. (But could be off-center, in the proposed scenario.) Me? I'd be looking elsewhere first. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
