Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Crankshaft harmonic balancer, where the scale is. Peter
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Thanks for the answers about injection duration. It saves me a lot of grief to have my misunderstanding corrected. Please excuse the dumb questions, but I'm just getting started with FI pump work. In "a damper reading of 15 deg ATDC" what is "The Damper"? Is that something on the FI pump? The only timing marks I'm familiar with are on the pulley at the front of the crank. Ned Kleinhenz '95 E300D x2 '85 300D '80 300TD
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: you cant use the drip method on the 60x engines Actually you can as long as you can keep fuel going to the pump. If the tank of a sedan is full it WILL work. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Why not? Peter
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Duration is related to fuel delivery -- the more fuel to be delivered, the farther the sleeve is rotated, and the farther the plunger has to rise before the vent slot in the plunger opens to the end of delivery (spiral) groove in the sleeve. VERY slick, as this longer duration injection also produces the lovely torque of our diesels. MB uses a centrifugal advance mechanism to move the start of injection earlier as the engine speeds up -- some diesel locomotive engines use unit injectors (driven by a cam for each cylinder instead of in a separate pump) that actually advance the injection timing with increasing fuel -- the fill slot is helical rather than the vent slot, so more fuel injected means earlier injection. Peter
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
No, sorry. The "start of injection" is always 24 or 26 degrees before TDC -- that is when the rising plunger covers the fill slot in the sleeve and pressure starts building. The nub on the governor shaft arm for the RIV system goes past the center of the hole at 15 degrees ATDC. I do not know why Bosch chose to set it this way, but I suspect it has something to do with internal geometry that was already designed and it was not worth the engineering effort to change (I believe the "nub" is on part of the governor assembly that was pre-existing). The location of the hole was determined by the presence of the fuel gallery, the governor and linage, and the presence of the engine block on one side -- pretty much limited to the outside of the rear of the pump. Difficult (or maybe impossible) to get that hall effect "nub" to go past a coil in any other position. In other words, the hall effect pickup triggers at 15 degrees ATDC when the plunger covers the fill slot at 24 degrees BTDC. Peter
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
you cant use the drip method on the 60x engines Peter Frederick wrote: The drip method on a 603 pump will require the normal 24 BTDC -- the RIV uses a hall effect pickup, and the bump is in the correct place at 15 ATDC due design constraints. peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
ned kleinhenz wrote: Marshall: So it appears the duration of fuel injection is either 39 or 40 degrees of crank rotation, depending upon engine vintage. This duration is mechanically fixed by the way the FI pump internals are machined. And the various methods of setting the injection timing adjust either the start or end of injection. Do I understand correctly? I don't know what the actual duration of injection is (I believe it changes with pedal pressure and engine rpm), but it has nothing to do with the degrees of rotation between the two measuring points used for the two techniques. The 24 degree BTDC injection point actually coincides with the beginning of delivery to cylinder #1. Setting the the injection pump so the flywheel know corresponds to a damper reading of 15 deg ATDC corresponds exactly to beginning of delivery at 24 deg. BTDC!!! You can set it using either method and the timing IS identical. There is NO relationship between the different methods of setting the timing and the duration of the injection pulse. Marshall Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Marshall: So it appears the duration of fuel injection is either 39 or 40 degrees of crank rotation, depending upon engine vintage. This duration is mechanically fixed by the way the FI pump internals are machined. And the various methods of setting the injection timing adjust either the start or end of injection. Do I understand correctly? Thanks, Ned Kleinhenz
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
The drip method on a 603 pump will require the normal 24 BTDC -- the RIV uses a hall effect pickup, and the bump is in the correct place at 15 ATDC due design constraints. peter
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marshall, Using the bubble technique... is the 24 BTDC for all engines? The cd rom says 15 BTDC for the 603 engine (yes the rod bender) when setting the start of delivery. Or is the timing mark different because of the method? Using the RIV or pump lock method at 15 ATDC (after top dead center) gives exactly the same results as the drip or bubble method at 24 degrees BTDC (before top dead center). In the former method, you are setting an arbitrary pump position to a set point on the crank damper. Using the latter techniques, you can actually measure where the pump is starting and stopping fuel delivered to the injector. Done correctly, the engine is set at the same injection point using either method. There are a few older engines (615.94 for one) that use 26 BTDC as the set point. All of the 60x engines from model year 1990 or newer use 14 degrees ATDC rather than 15 deg ATDC like '80s diesels use as the set point. That would correspond to 25 deg BTDC when using the bubble or drip method. Not a big deal as I can NOT detect any difference in power/performance/fuel economy from a one degree change in pump time. In a car I am familiar with, I CAN detect a 2 degree change! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
You can also get very close by just eyeballing the Vee-ridge on the IP governor through the threaded port with a flashlight and small mirror. Set your crankshaft to the desired position, then loosen the pump and turn the adjuster bolt until the Vee-ridge is perfectly centered in the threaded port. You need to avoid parallax perspective, so be sure to be looking at it dead-on. I've personally done this on multiple occasions, so I know it works. Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state" '87 300TD intercooler #22 (216k) '84 300D (214k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Marshall, Using the bubble technique... is the 24 BTDC for all engines? The cd rom says 15 BTDC for the 603 engine (yes the rod bender) when setting the start of delivery. Or is the timing mark different because of the method? Thanks Mark Maturo Marshall Booth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To Sent by: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes-bounces@ okiebenz.com cc Subject 06/28/2006 07:49 Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor PM Please respond to Mercedes Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED] z.com> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set the > start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one? > Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor? You can set the timing PERFECTLY using the locking screw 601 589 05 21 00 at a cost of about $25-30 using a variant of the technique shown in 7.1-8410. Or you CAN use the very accurate bubble technique posted by the late Bob Sanigar that's been repeated again and again. > On the subject of diesel timing. If you are replacing the pump or > rebuilding the engine. The simplest and most accurate way of setting > the pump is. Disconnect the fuel line going into the pump from the > filter. Take the spring and plunger out of #1 delivery valve, put the > delivery valve back in and snug it down, hold the the pump linkage in > the full open position. If you have the drip tube install it on the > delivery valve, if not use the injector line in such a way that it is > pointing away from the engine. It you don't mind the taste of diesel > you can blow through the fuel line or use low air pressure. Put the > open end of the injector line in a glass of water and watch the > bubbles. Turn the engine slowly until the bubbles stop and check the > timing mark. Should be at 24 BTDC. After tightening the pump recheck. > This method is really more precise than it needs to be and although it > may sound complicated it is very easy . Bob Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. *
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Ouch! Thanks Rusty, I will let you know if one of the other methods
don't work.
Mark Maturo
"Rusty Cullens"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.com> To
Sent by: "'Mercedes Discussion List'"
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Subject
06/28/2006 04:09 Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
PM
Please respond to
Mercedes
Discussion List
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z.com>
$300.00
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
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Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:01 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
617 589 08 21 00
Mark Maturo
"Rusty Cullens"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.com>
To
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Subject
06/28/2006 03:46 Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
PM
Please respond to
Mercedes
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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If you can get me a part # I can see how much.
-Original Message-
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 3:17 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set
the
start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one?
Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor?
Thanks
Mark Maturo
*
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Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set the start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one? Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor? You can set the timing PERFECTLY using the locking screw 601 589 05 21 00 at a cost of about $25-30 using a variant of the technique shown in 7.1-8410. Or you CAN use the very accurate bubble technique posted by the late Bob Sanigar that's been repeated again and again. > On the subject of diesel timing. If you are replacing the pump or > rebuilding the engine. The simplest and most accurate way of setting > the pump is. Disconnect the fuel line going into the pump from the > filter. Take the spring and plunger out of #1 delivery valve, put the > delivery valve back in and snug it down, hold the the pump linkage in > the full open position. If you have the drip tube install it on the > delivery valve, if not use the injector line in such a way that it is > pointing away from the engine. It you don't mind the taste of diesel > you can blow through the fuel line or use low air pressure. Put the > open end of the injector line in a glass of water and watch the > bubbles. Turn the engine slowly until the bubbles stop and check the > timing mark. Should be at 24 BTDC. After tightening the pump recheck. > This method is really more precise than it needs to be and although it > may sound complicated it is very easy . Bob Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
$300.00
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:01 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
617 589 08 21 00
Mark Maturo
"Rusty Cullens"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.com>
To
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Subject
06/28/2006 03:46 Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
PM
Please respond to
Mercedes
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z.com>
If you can get me a part # I can see how much.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 3:17 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set
the
start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one?
Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor?
Thanks
Mark Maturo
*
This communication, including attachments, is
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Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
617 589 08 21 00
Mark Maturo
"Rusty Cullens"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.com> To
Sent by: "'Mercedes Discussion List'"
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Subject
06/28/2006 03:46 Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
PM
Please respond to
Mercedes
Discussion List
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z.com>
If you can get me a part # I can see how much.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 3:17 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: [MBZ] RIV sensor
Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set
the
start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one?
Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor?
Thanks
Mark Maturo
*
This communication, including attachments, is
for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary,
confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended
recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution
is
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
notify
the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and
destroy all copies.
*
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Re: [MBZ] RIV sensor
If you can get me a part # I can see how much. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 3:17 PM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: [MBZ] RIV sensor Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set the start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one? Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor? Thanks Mark Maturo * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] RIV sensor
Does anyone know of a place that rents the RIV position sensor to set the start of delivery on the inj. pump? Rusty, how much is a new one? Is there another way to set the start of delivery without the sensor? Thanks Mark Maturo * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. *
