Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
I was about to say that Marshall settled this for me last winter, but I see that he has settled it again in 2006. But I do challenge him on one point -- given sufficiently low temps (not seen normally seen in PA but commonly seen in northwest IA) wind chill continues to matter, because it determines how damn'd cold you feel while jump-starting your diesel after it has sat outside your workplace for nine hours. (We are talking sub-ZeroF temps here.) On 12/7/06, Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mercedes has stated that it takes about 8 hours on average for the car to reach temperature equilibrium (and I agree that's about right) with the ambient temperature. On a windy night it takes less time and in a well sheltered area a bit longer. Once at equilibrium, wind makes no further contribution. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Most men want to spend time in the garage. As for me, I'd much rather be in the kitchen -- cooking, not eating.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
LT Don wrote: I was about to say that Marshall settled this for me last winter, but I see that he has settled it again in 2006. But I do challenge him on one point -- given sufficiently low temps (not seen normally seen in PA but commonly seen in northwest IA) wind chill continues to matter, because it determines how damn'd cold you feel while jump-starting your diesel after it has sat outside your workplace for nine hours. (We are talking sub-ZeroF temps here.) Can't dispute that! I've spent a morning or two at 20 below (F) starting a wife's diesel that had sat outside in a hospital parking lot all night! Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
My '83 VW Quantum diesel kicked right over (Mobil-1 15-W-50) at lunch time in +1F, after being driven two blocks from the garage at 7:30 am and then sitting until noon. Two quick hits of the glow plugs and pulled the cold start handle (have no idea what that does, but it works). I think my 240D will be a Garage Queen during the salt season. On 12/7/06, Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LT Don wrote: I was about to say that Marshall settled this for me last winter, but I see that he has settled it again in 2006. But I do challenge him on one point -- given sufficiently low temps (not seen normally seen in PA but commonly seen in northwest IA) wind chill continues to matter, because it determines how damn'd cold you feel while jump-starting your diesel after it has sat outside your workplace for nine hours. (We are talking sub-ZeroF temps here.) Can't dispute that! I've spent a morning or two at 20 below (F) starting a wife's diesel that had sat outside in a hospital parking lot all night! Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Most men want to spend time in the garage. As for me, I'd much rather be in the kitchen -- cooking, not eating.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
That's what you silly folk get for living where it gets so damn cold. Down here, we hardly EVERY see temps below zero! And wind? Nah, too many trees for that! :) On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:47:22 -0600, Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LT Don wrote: I was about to say that Marshall settled this for me last winter, but I see that he has settled it again in 2006. But I do challenge him on one point -- given sufficiently low temps (not seen normally seen in PA but commonly seen in northwest IA) wind chill continues to matter, because it determines how damn'd cold you feel while jump-starting your diesel after it has sat outside your workplace for nine hours. (We are talking sub-ZeroF temps here.) Can't dispute that! I've spent a morning or two at 20 below (F) starting a wife's diesel that had sat outside in a hospital parking lot all night! Marshall -- Luther KB5QHUAlma, Ark '87 300SDL (270,491 mi) head case? '83 300SD (241 kmi) '82 300CD (162 kmi) '82 300D (74 kmi) needs MAJOR engine work '85 300D (280,176) parts car
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Yeah, it was fun this morning at a balmy 5F with a windchill of probably around -10F or less. It was quite windy. Yeah, my battery is definitely toast. What amazed me was just how slow the engine can crank and still start. my brother just swapped out his like 4 year old Subaru battery (I'm guessing like 350CCA's, maybe it's more) so I used the jumper cables to add some capacity to the Benz battery (cause the 100amp jump start function on the charger wouldn't budge it) Oh, and I did leave the block heater plugged in all night. I'm gonna have to check it with my kill-a-watt cause it didn't seem like any difference this morning, it was a good 15 minutes or so before I saw any movement on the temp gauge. ANYWAY... With that little Suby battery jumpered in (after I took the jumper cables out to the shop and used the brush on the grinder wheel to clean the rust off as I couldn't get them to connect at ALL prior to that) It woud at least turn the engine over, but I can't imagine it was anything more than 100RPM. But I let it try a few times just for kicks. I'll be darned if about 5 seconds in it started to sputter and within around 10 seconds was actually running! Hopefully it will be a bit warmer at lunch time when I head home and that Sube battery will get me to life again and then I can figure out what I'm doing battery -wise. Do you have to take the air cleaner off to change the battery? Levi On 12/7/06, Marshall Booth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LT Don wrote: I was about to say that Marshall settled this for me last winter, but I see that he has settled it again in 2006. But I do challenge him on one point -- given sufficiently low temps (not seen normally seen in PA but commonly seen in northwest IA) wind chill continues to matter, because it determines how damn'd cold you feel while jump-starting your diesel after it has sat outside your workplace for nine hours. (We are talking sub-ZeroF temps here.) Can't dispute that! I've spent a morning or two at 20 below (F) starting a wife's diesel that had sat outside in a hospital parking lot all night! Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
charger wouldn't budge it) Oh, and I did leave the block heater plugged in all night. I'm gonna have to check it with my kill-a-watt cause it didn't seem like any difference this morning, it was a good 15 minutes or so before I saw any movement on the temp gauge. If it's working, and it's quiet out, you can hear the gentle sizzle. Do you have to take the air cleaner off to change the battery? Not on my cars. But there are a lot of differences in that area. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
LT Don wrote: My '83 VW Quantum diesel kicked right over (Mobil-1 15-W-50) at lunch time in +1F, after being driven two blocks from the garage at 7:30 am and then sitting until noon. Two quick hits of the glow plugs and pulled the cold start handle (have no idea what that does, but it works). It adds a fixed amount of timing advance at low RPM -- about 5 degrees, IIRC.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Werner Fehlauer wrote: Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Ah, but we're talking about an engine being actively heated by a block heater. Kinda like how your body is actively heated. So wind chill *will* have some effect -- the wind will carry more of the block heater's heat away, and the engine will be colder than it would have been in a sheltered area.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
David - Bzzzt! An engine block, whether standing in the wind or in an unheated shelter, will never get below ambient temperature, no matter how hard the wind blows. Now it will cool down to ambient faster with air circulation, but no way will it get colder than that - unlike humans, who would feel like it is a lot colder than ambient when in the wind. I was referring to the term Wind Chill, as in Wind Chill factor, which only affects animate objects as has been correctly pointed out by several listers. Werner - Original Message - From: David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Werner Fehlauer wrote: Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Ah, but we're talking about an engine being actively heated by a block heater. Kinda like how your body is actively heated. So wind chill *will* have some effect -- the wind will carry more of the block heater's heat away, and the engine will be colder than it would have been in a sheltered area. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It's just semantics; you're both right. There are many different ways to define and calculate wind chill. On Dec 6, 2006, at 6:42 PM, David Brodbeck wrote: Ah, but we're talking about an engine being actively heated by a block heater. Kinda like how your body is actively heated. So wind chill *will* have some effect -- the wind will carry more of the block heater's heat away, and the engine will be colder than it would have been in a sheltered area. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFd5e7t178NxI/higRAnyHAJoDr5ItSEk7UOGFT53z+Y2viFmPygCfVaHd HN9luAd5OpslxY7M4gs49Ms= =NcGu -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Werner Fehlauer wrote: David - Bzzzt! An engine block, whether standing in the wind or in an unheated shelter, will never get below ambient temperature, no matter how hard the wind blows. I realize that, but the original question was what temperature the engine will reach WITH THE BLOCK HEATER ON. That will *always* be above ambient, but in the case of windy conditions (which would have a low wind chill reading) it will be lower than it would be in calm conditions.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
circulation, but no way will it get colder than that - unlike humans, who would feel like it is a lot colder than ambient when in the wind. We feel the extra cold because of the increased rate of heat loss. The largest component of this is due to the wind, the sweating component is much smaller. I was referring to the term Wind Chill, as in Wind Chill factor, which only affects animate objects as has been correctly pointed out by several listers. I'm not talking about Wind Chill Factor (TM, all rights reserved, etc.), I'm talking about being chilled faster via wind. Wind chill, for short. It's an operating mechanism, just not exactly the same as for fur-less mammals. Humans also rarely get below ambient temperature. Until they are long past caring. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
It may not be relevant but I tell you it has an effect. I agree... If you park out in a windy spot as opposed to a shielded spot on a cold night, you will notice a difference not only in starting but in how stiff the whole car is. ...But not really about this. Wind or not, parked outside it all should have reached equilibrium before the night was over. Assuming temperatures cold enough to be worthy of the name. 45 degrees doesn't cut it. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Jim Cathey wrote: It may not be relevant but I tell you it has an effect. I agree... If you park out in a windy spot as opposed to a shielded spot on a cold night, you will notice a difference not only in starting but in how stiff the whole car is. ...But not really about this. Wind or not, parked outside it all should have reached equilibrium before the night was over. Assuming temperatures cold enough to be worthy of the name. 45 degrees doesn't cut it. Mercedes has stated that it takes about 8 hours on average for the car to reach temperature equilibrium (and I agree that's about right) with the ambient temperature. On a windy night it takes less time and in a well sheltered area a bit longer. Once at equilibrium, wind makes no further contribution. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
i've spent much of the best times of my life below ambient temperature; but then again, i *like* it in the Dez. ;-) cheers! e Jim Cathey wrote: I'm not talking about Wind Chill Factor (TM, all rights reserved, etc.), I'm talking about being chilled faster via wind. Wind chill, for short. It's an operating mechanism, just not exactly the same as for fur-less mammals. Humans also rarely get below ambient temperature. Until they are long past caring. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. Werner - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Block Heater The block heater puts out a steady output of heat. Most block heaters use 750 watts, and that can be translated into an average number of BTUs or My MB ones measure about 450W. Engine will eventually get to about body temperature with enough time, unless sitting in an arctic blast. (Wind chill comes into effect on anything heated.) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. I prefer to think that it applies to both, but the common tables aren't designed for dry inanimate objects. So, your car's 'feels as cold as X in still air' number will be different than yours, but the effect still applies so long as the thing is warmer than ambient. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
I guess you could say that there is circulation in the engine as convection moves the coolant around. So if there is circulation wind chill comes into play? Mike - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. I prefer to think that it applies to both, but the common tables aren't designed for dry inanimate objects. So, your car's 'feels as cold as X in still air' number will be different than yours, but the effect still applies so long as the thing is warmer than ambient. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Wind Chill is an expression that is supposed to take into account humidity and ventilation to figure the extra cooling on exposed skin as a result of the evaporation of moisture in that exposed skin. it sounds impressive in the news reports, but since most people don't have much flesh exposed below freezing temps and most of our MBZs don't have any flesh to lose moisture from, it's not really very relevant. cheers! e Mike Canfield wrote: I guess you could say that there is circulation in the engine as convection moves the coolant around. So if there is circulation wind chill comes into play? Mike - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. I prefer to think that it applies to both, but the common tables aren't designed for dry inanimate objects. So, your car's 'feels as cold as X in still air' number will be different than yours, but the effect still applies so long as the thing is warmer than ambient. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
It may not be relevant but I tell you it has an effect. If you park out in a windy spot as opposed to a shielded spot on a cold night, you will notice a difference not only in starting but in how stiff the whole car is. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ernest breakfield Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:54 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Wind Chill is an expression that is supposed to take into account humidity and ventilation to figure the extra cooling on exposed skin as a result of the evaporation of moisture in that exposed skin. it sounds impressive in the news reports, but since most people don't have much flesh exposed below freezing temps and most of our MBZs don't have any flesh to lose moisture from, it's not really very relevant. cheers! e Mike Canfield wrote: I guess you could say that there is circulation in the engine as convection moves the coolant around. So if there is circulation wind chill comes into play? Mike - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. I prefer to think that it applies to both, but the common tables aren't designed for dry inanimate objects. So, your car's 'feels as cold as X in still air' number will be different than yours, but the effect still applies so long as the thing is warmer than ambient. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
Werner Fehlauer wrote: Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. Air movement (wind) does change the rate of heat transfer (providing the air and the object are at different temps). When the engine fan in your car doesn't work, the engine can overheat if the engine is loaded, while it shouldn't if the fan (wind) is working. Wind will cool the engine QUICKER than if there is no wind. In the case of the block heater and wind chill the temperature of the engine will never drop below ambient, but the rate at which it cools IS correlated to wind speed. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater)
wind will obviously help a vehicle to cool down to closer to ambient temps faster since it's last been used than if it hadn't been parked in the wind; but if the same vehicle had been parked in the sheltered spot for long enough, it would be the same temp eventually. in your example, it's just the factor of the wind circulating the air so that the vehicle reached ambient temps sooner than if it had been sheltered. the point was that since there isn't any evaporation involved, it isn't going to be any *colder* than the ambient temps (as Wind Chill would), and it's not truly what we call Wind Chill. cheers! e R A Bennell wrote: It may not be relevant but I tell you it has an effect. If you park out in a windy spot as opposed to a shielded spot on a cold night, you will notice a difference not only in starting but in how stiff the whole car is. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ernest breakfield Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:54 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Wind Chill is an expression that is supposed to take into account humidity and ventilation to figure the extra cooling on exposed skin as a result of the evaporation of moisture in that exposed skin. it sounds impressive in the news reports, but since most people don't have much flesh exposed below freezing temps and most of our MBZs don't have any flesh to lose moisture from, it's not really very relevant. cheers! e Mike Canfield wrote: I guess you could say that there is circulation in the engine as convection moves the coolant around. So if there is circulation wind chill comes into play? Mike - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Chill (was Block Heater) Jim - at the risk of starting a whole new thread, Wind Chill applies only to living things (animate) that have a circulating system (blood). Inanimate objects like machinery may cool faster if wind currents blow on them, but the concept of lower than ambient wind chill temperatures does NOT apply! So when the weather man says the temperature is -10, with a wind chill of -25, that does not mean that a block of metal sees anything other than -10. I prefer to think that it applies to both, but the common tables aren't designed for dry inanimate objects. So, your car's 'feels as cold as X in still air' number will be different than yours, but the effect still applies so long as the thing is warmer than ambient. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
