Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis: Update
I have taken the TE on several short trips of 40-50 miles, so today I drove it 200+ miles and all is well. I am about to declare that changing the filter fixed it, but I want to make a few more 4-500 mile trips to be sure. Thanks to all who assisted with the diagnosis. Now if I could get the radio and speakers to work right Loren 88 300TE et al At 06:56 PM 9/26/2006, you wrote: Here is the latest: Sun Valley suggested installing a new Mann Trans filter, and fluid. To them this seemed to be a common problem. They said the filter is probably clogged or collapsed, as others on the list suggested. I ordered a couple of Mann filters from Rusty, changed the filter and fluid and have driven the TE on a few short runs. Last night was about 15 miles. So far so good. The jury is still out. I will work up to 200 mile trip, then decide if I trust it. There were no metallic bits in the bottom of the pan. There was fine dark residue that i take to be disk residue. If the filter and fluid had not been changed for a long time, some of this could be leftover from before the previous change. If you order Mann filters, you should also order a gasket and a washer for the drain plug. Note to Rusty and crew: suggestive sell the gasket and washer... and the washer with the Febi filter. Loren 88 300 TE ($eems to be happy $$$) et al ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis: Update
Clean the fader with contact cleaner -- it gets oxidized and results in goofy operation, with speakers going on and off intermittantly. Peter
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Here is the latest: Sun Valley suggested installing a new Mann Trans filter, and fluid. To them this seemed to be a common problem. They said the filter is probably clogged or collapsed, as others on the list suggested. I ordered a couple of Mann filters from Rusty, changed the filter and fluid and have driven the TE on a few short runs. Last night was about 15 miles. So far so good. The jury is still out. I will work up to 200 mile trip, then decide if I trust it. There were no metallic bits in the bottom of the pan. There was fine dark residue that i take to be disk residue. If the filter and fluid had not been changed for a long time, some of this could be leftover from before the previous change. If you order Mann filters, you should also order a gasket and a washer for the drain plug. Note to Rusty and crew: suggestive sell the gasket and washer... and the washer with the Febi filter. Loren 88 300 TE ($eems to be happy $$$) et al
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Leave it to the Aussies to hijack a perfectly good thread, and a language, for that matter! ; ) Hendrick, send us a movie of you riding your 'roo bareback while ropin wallabys with one hand and shootin dingos with the other! Bet that would be entertaining! One good thing about Aussies, they can spin a yarn! On topic: I think I am to the point where i just want the thing on the road. One place quoted $2300 and $1000 core for a rebuilt trans! I think I will buy the $450 used one and hope for the best, so I can get it running. I am gonna call Sun valley before I decide for sure. I cand seem to find a $4-500 124 gasser heap to donate a transAnd K'leb seems to be 124 averse, in terms of snappin up old 124s to provide us parts. Loren 240D needs a trans (81) 300TE (88 Needs a trans: topic car) 87 TD still down and undiagnosed, a puzzler. I STILL hate auto trans and no MB with working ac this year! My trusty ol 400K SDL still runs great! Funny thing, the old 200Ds with a 4 speed just keep workingcould it be cause MB would sell a manual transmission to us (USA) back then? At 06:13 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: Nah, the really macho amongst us use their mouth to clean the dipstickand no spitting is not allowed. Also allows us to taste the condition of the fluid. - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. That's why the preferred technique involves wiping the blade down with your fingers after wiping off the oil. Then you wipe your fingers on the towel. For the macho, skip the initial towel wipe altogether! I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. See, I'd be just the reverse. Something that can be easily removed from the car without a lot of grunt work is appealing. Though I've never done one I suppose I wouldn't be afraid to try. If it's broke before I start there's little I can do to it that'll make it worse. Also, I once as a foolish 'yout' disassembled the carriage of a Friden rotary calculator. Trying to get _that_ back together was a real exercise in complexity and spring-loaded flying steel balls. Btw, I did get it back together and it worked. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 23/08/2006 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Call Lloyd at Raleigh Auto 919-821-0952, the last I checked he had a W124 300E that was being parted out. I am not sure about the state of the transmission. I had a W124 transmission rebuilt locally for $1200, since then I do all my own transmission rebuilds. Trampas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Faeth Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:51 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Leave it to the Aussies to hijack a perfectly good thread, and a language, for that matter! ; ) Hendrick, send us a movie of you riding your 'roo bareback while ropin wallabys with one hand and shootin dingos with the other! Bet that would be entertaining! One good thing about Aussies, they can spin a yarn! On topic: I think I am to the point where i just want the thing on the road. One place quoted $2300 and $1000 core for a rebuilt trans! I think I will buy the $450 used one and hope for the best, so I can get it running. I am gonna call Sun valley before I decide for sure. I cand seem to find a $4-500 124 gasser heap to donate a transAnd K'leb seems to be 124 averse, in terms of snappin up old 124s to provide us parts. Loren 240D needs a trans (81) 300TE (88 Needs a trans: topic car) 87 TD still down and undiagnosed, a puzzler. I STILL hate auto trans and no MB with working ac this year! My trusty ol 400K SDL still runs great! Funny thing, the old 200Ds with a 4 speed just keep workingcould it be cause MB would sell a manual transmission to us (USA) back then? At 06:13 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: Nah, the really macho amongst us use their mouth to clean the dipstickand no spitting is not allowed. Also allows us to taste the condition of the fluid. - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. That's why the preferred technique involves wiping the blade down with your fingers after wiping off the oil. Then you wipe your fingers on the towel. For the macho, skip the initial towel wipe altogether! I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. See, I'd be just the reverse. Something that can be easily removed from the car without a lot of grunt work is appealing. Though I've never done one I suppose I wouldn't be afraid to try. If it's broke before I start there's little I can do to it that'll make it worse. Also, I once as a foolish 'yout' disassembled the carriage of a Friden rotary calculator. Trying to get _that_ back together was a real exercise in complexity and spring-loaded flying steel balls. Btw, I did get it back together and it worked. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 23/08/2006 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
yes, you have to check the coolant temp fully warmed up with your finger. David Brodbeck wrote: Hendrik Riessen wrote: Nah, the really macho amongst us use their mouth to clean the dipstickand no spitting is not allowed. Also allows us to taste the condition of the fluid. They also check the accuracy of the temperature gauge by removing the expansion tank cap and dipping in a finger, and check for spark by sticking their tongue into the end of a spark plug lead. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Nah, the really macho amongst us use their mouth to clean the dipstickand no spitting is not allowed. Also allows us to taste the condition of the fluid. - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. That's why the preferred technique involves wiping the blade down with your fingers after wiping off the oil. Then you wipe your fingers on the towel. For the macho, skip the initial towel wipe altogether! I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. See, I'd be just the reverse. Something that can be easily removed from the car without a lot of grunt work is appealing. Though I've never done one I suppose I wouldn't be afraid to try. If it's broke before I start there's little I can do to it that'll make it worse. Also, I once as a foolish 'yout' disassembled the carriage of a Friden rotary calculator. Trying to get _that_ back together was a real exercise in complexity and spring-loaded flying steel balls. Btw, I did get it back together and it worked. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 23/08/2006
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Hendrik Riessen wrote: Nah, the really macho amongst us use their mouth to clean the dipstickand no spitting is not allowed. Also allows us to taste the condition of the fluid. They also check the accuracy of the temperature gauge by removing the expansion tank cap and dipping in a finger, and check for spark by sticking their tongue into the end of a spark plug lead.
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
expansion tank cap and dipping in a finger, and check for spark by sticking their tongue into the end of a spark plug lead. You call that macho? Hurts my back to bend over that far, I'd suggest an appendage located closer to the engine. :-) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Ahhh you stick your tongue in to test the spark, personally I use another part of the male anatomy to test for spark. But then again I ride Kangaroos and Crocodiles bareback. - Original Message - From: David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Hendrik Riessen wrote: Nah, the really macho amongst us use their mouth to clean the dipstickand no spitting is not allowed. Also allows us to taste the condition of the fluid. They also check the accuracy of the temperature gauge by removing the expansion tank cap and dipping in a finger, and check for spark by sticking their tongue into the end of a spark plug lead. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 23/08/2006
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Loren Faeth wrote: All you with auto trans experience: 88 300 TE trans has worked perfectly. Fri night after about 180 miles of a trip, suddenly downshifted into 3rd and stayed there. Fluid is ok, Level is ok. Fuel filters and throttle position seem to be normal (no sign of obstructed filter) within a few minuted it downshifted again into second. Then it starts a cycle of start, shift into 3rd, will seem to stay in gear at 30-35 mph, but won't shift up into 4th , even at higher speeds. If you try to push it above 40, it shifts into neutral. Let off the gas and wait, it will shift into gear again, then downshift to second or third. get up to 35 again, in 3rd, and it will run 5 miles or so, then shift into neutral and repeat the process. Let off the gas, coast wait until it shifts back into gear, etc. Any thoughts about the diagnosis? We managed to limp the last 30 miles and it started a disastrous weekend of dead electric motors and pumps not pumping, and another car down for the count. My guess is that the trans is dead. It's all a matter ATF pressure. Sounds like you are loosing pressure as the transmission fluid heats up and that causes the transmission to downshift and to NOT shift up. It can be a matter of wear, dirt in the valve body, scarred seals, a broken spring, etc. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
andrew strasfogel wrote: Why couldn't the symptoms be vacuum related? Vacuum doesn't control WHEN the shifts occur in 722.3/4 transmissions, only how firm the shift is! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Herr Doktor, Is any of this fixable from underneath, without removing the trans? I put a filter and fluid in not long ago, I think it was May. It has been working just fine, and was going down the highway when this started. A broken spring or a blown oring seem plausible. How is the valve body sealed to the transmission? are there orings? Are there springs in the valve body? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but I have avoided working on AT until now. (only had manual trans until we got the 240D about 10 years ago.) Loren It's all a matter ATF pressure. Sounds like you are loosing pressure as the transmission fluid heats up and that causes the transmission to downshift and to NOT shift up. It can be a matter of wear, dirt in the valve body, scarred seals, a broken spring, etc. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Loren Faeth wrote: Herr Doktor, Is any of this fixable from underneath, without removing the trans? I put a filter and fluid in not long ago, I think it was May. It has been working just fine, and was going down the highway when this started. A broken spring or a blown oring seem plausible. How is the valve body sealed to the transmission? are there orings? Are there springs in the valve body? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but I have avoided working on AT until now. (only had manual trans until we got the 240D about 10 years ago.) I've never done it but the valve body CAN be removed and repaired after removing the pan. Get specifics from someone that's done it - NOT from me. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Are there springs in the valve body? Absolutely. And BB's as check valves. I don't know about how it's attached or sealed, but absolutely you can do it from below. Cleanliness is all, however. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
because you replaced the filter in may does not mean the filter does not need to be replaced again. That is where you start. Anything beyond that at this point is a waste of time. Loren Faeth wrote: Herr Doktor, Is any of this fixable from underneath, without removing the trans? I put a filter and fluid in not long ago, I think it was May. It has been working just fine, and was going down the highway when this started. A broken spring or a blown oring seem plausible. How is the valve body sealed to the transmission? are there orings? Are there springs in the valve body? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but I have avoided working on AT until now. (only had manual trans until we got the 240D about 10 years ago.) Loren -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Hi Loren, The valve body looks like a maze - with al the passageways having speing loaded steels balls that are actuated by hydraulic pressure. The danger is when opening some of the housings you will be treated to the sight and sound of a steel ball being propelled at slightly subsonic speed across the room - ending up the the most difficult of places to extract it from. BTDT. It would be preferable for you to have a diagram of what the different balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. Even though you changed the fluid filter a few months ago doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit from another change. There are few AT technicians around who work on these things - partly because of the complexity and partly the economical logic doesn't work - it's quicker to replace the AT with a rebuilt or used unit. Also, if you buy a rebuilt AT they may want your AT as core - and they do't like to get a core that's been disassembled. I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. I suspect a new one. if available would be pretty steep. You may want to find someone who can say *exactly* what is wrong before doing much else. Sometimes the local stealerhip will put their gauges on a AT diagnose it - but more likely they'll say it's broke - you need a new one. Good luck - Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Herr Doktor, Is any of this fixable from underneath, without removing the trans? I put a filter and fluid in not long ago, I think it was May. It has been working just fine, and was going down the highway when this started. A broken spring or a blown oring seem plausible. How is the valve body sealed to the transmission? are there orings? Are there springs in the valve body? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but I have avoided working on AT until now. (only had manual trans until we got the 240D about 10 years ago.) Loren It's all a matter ATF pressure. Sounds like you are loosing pressure as the transmission fluid heats up and that causes the transmission to downshift and to NOT shift up. It can be a matter of wear, dirt in the valve body, scarred seals, a broken spring, etc. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. That's why the preferred technique involves wiping the blade down with your fingers after wiping off the oil. Then you wipe your fingers on the towel. For the macho, skip the initial towel wipe altogether! I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. See, I'd be just the reverse. Something that can be easily removed from the car without a lot of grunt work is appealing. Though I've never done one I suppose I wouldn't be afraid to try. If it's broke before I start there's little I can do to it that'll make it worse. Also, I once as a foolish 'yout' disassembled the carriage of a Friden rotary calculator. Trying to get _that_ back together was a real exercise in complexity and spring-loaded flying steel balls. Btw, I did get it back together and it worked. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Thanks Larry, do you know how the valve body is attached to the rest of the transmission? I am wondering about pulling it out and seeing if the gasket or oring seal is the problem. Maybe I could find a uses valve body. Just hauling it to a dealer would cost about as much as a used trans, and I am trying to avoid the expense of a used trans, but i think that is a lost cause. So, taking it to a stealership is not an option. Loren At 02:57 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: Hi Loren, The valve body looks like a maze - with al the passageways having speing loaded steels balls that are actuated by hydraulic pressure. The danger is when opening some of the housings you will be treated to the sight and sound of a steel ball being propelled at slightly subsonic speed across the room - ending up the the most difficult of places to extract it from. BTDT. It would be preferable for you to have a diagram of what the different balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. Even though you changed the fluid filter a few months ago doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit from another change. There are few AT technicians around who work on these things - partly because of the complexity and partly the economical logic doesn't work - it's quicker to replace the AT with a rebuilt or used unit. Also, if you buy a rebuilt AT they may want your AT as core - and they do't like to get a core that's been disassembled. I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. I suspect a new one. if available would be pretty steep. You may want to find someone who can say *exactly* what is wrong before doing much else. Sometimes the local stealerhip will put their gauges on a AT diagnose it - but more likely they'll say it's broke - you need a new one. Good luck - Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Herr Doktor, Is any of this fixable from underneath, without removing the trans? I put a filter and fluid in not long ago, I think it was May. It has been working just fine, and was going down the highway when this started. A broken spring or a blown oring seem plausible. How is the valve body sealed to the transmission? are there orings? Are there springs in the valve body? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but I have avoided working on AT until now. (only had manual trans until we got the 240D about 10 years ago.) Loren It's all a matter ATF pressure. Sounds like you are loosing pressure as the transmission fluid heats up and that causes the transmission to downshift and to NOT shift up. It can be a matter of wear, dirt in the valve body, scarred seals, a broken spring, etc. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) der Dieseling Doktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
do you know how the valve body is attached to the rest of the transmission? I am wondering about pulling it out and seeing if the gasket or oring seal is the problem. Maybe I could find a used valve body. Some number of small bolts or screws? I don't think it's very involved. Just drippy. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Yeah, I am kind of looking at the Catheyesque method before I shell out cash for a used trans. I am just wondering how the valve body seals to the main trans body. Anyone know how the pump seals to the trans case? From Herr Doktor's email, perhaps the pump to body seal may have given way. Loren At 03:34 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. That's why the preferred technique involves wiping the blade down with your fingers after wiping off the oil. Then you wipe your fingers on the towel. For the macho, skip the initial towel wipe altogether! I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. See, I'd be just the reverse. Something that can be easily removed from the car without a lot of grunt work is appealing. Though I've never done one I suppose I wouldn't be afraid to try. If it's broke before I start there's little I can do to it that'll make it worse. Also, I once as a foolish 'yout' disassembled the carriage of a Friden rotary calculator. Trying to get _that_ back together was a real exercise in complexity and spring-loaded flying steel balls. Btw, I did get it back together and it worked. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Anyone know how the pump seals to the trans case? The front pump seals to the case with a large O ring. You can't even look at it without removing the transmission from the car and taking out the torque converter and removing the front housing. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
yeah, I found the oring on Rusty's website. He was also kind enough to send me an exploded diagram of the trans. It appears to be a 722.320 from the info on Rusty's site. I suppose I will have to pay for a used trans or a rebuilt, but the failure mode suggests a snapped spring or a blown out oring or gasket. Some sudden failure that causes the pump pressure to be bled off. Loren 88 300TE US version. Wishing I had a 124 junker with a 5 speed and a real clutch At 04:41 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: Anyone know how the pump seals to the trans case? The front pump seals to the case with a large O ring. You can't even look at it without removing the transmission from the car and taking out the torque converter and removing the front housing. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Hi Loren, IIRC, there's several 10mm bolts that are visible once the filter is removed - or maybe at each corner and visible with the filter still in place. The last one I took apart was a 70 280S (with dreaded carbs) that had a bad primary pump and that was the early 80s - so it;s been a while. At the time, MB sold a manual for the AT with diagrams, etc so at least I had a road map. You're right about o-rings - there's at least 2 unless they've changed the way the valve body attaches from the one I did. My experience is the basic design of the AT hasn't changed very much - until you start dealing with the new CVT (continuously variable transmission) trannys - they may have finally worked the bugs out of them. I understand about being in the tow it away Vs. try to fix it mode and you may bet lucky and find a steel ball that is sticking or some junk in the valve body - but as we mentioned - a piece of lint can cause problems and finding it may be a challenge, if thats the problem. Of course, if you take things apart at least you'll learn a lot. I still think a fluid filter change may be the cheapest easiest thing to do first - even if it was changed recently a change could flush the lint out. Good Luck - let me know if you have any questions - Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Thanks Larry, do you know how the valve body is attached to the rest of the transmission? I am wondering about pulling it out and seeing if the gasket or oring seal is the problem. Maybe I could find a uses valve body. Just hauling it to a dealer would cost about as much as a used trans, and I am trying to avoid the expense of a used trans, but i think that is a lost cause. So, taking it to a stealership is not an option. Loren At 02:57 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote: Hi Loren, The valve body looks like a maze - with al the passageways having speing loaded steels balls that are actuated by hydraulic pressure. The danger is when opening some of the housings you will be treated to the sight and sound of a steel ball being propelled at slightly subsonic speed across the room - ending up the the most difficult of places to extract it from. BTDT. It would be preferable for you to have a diagram of what the different balls/springs do before taking things apart. Something as small as a piece of lint from a paper towel used to check the ATF level can cause problems. Even though you changed the fluid filter a few months ago doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit from another change. There are few AT technicians around who work on these things - partly because of the complexity and partly the economical logic doesn't work - it's quicker to replace the AT with a rebuilt or used unit. Also, if you buy a rebuilt AT they may want your AT as core - and they do't like to get a core that's been disassembled. I wouldn't hesitate to replace the primary pump or the bands, but if the valve body needs work, I'd try to find a used or rebuilt one. I suspect a new one. if available would be pretty steep. You may want to find someone who can say *exactly* what is wrong before doing much else. Sometimes the local stealerhip will put their gauges on a AT diagnose it - but more likely they'll say it's broke - you need a new one. Good luck - Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Herr Doktor, Is any of this fixable from underneath, without removing the trans? I put a filter and fluid in not long ago, I think it was May. It has been working just fine, and was going down the highway when this started. A broken spring or a blown oring seem plausible. How is the valve body sealed to the transmission? are there orings? Are there springs in the valve body? I apologize if these are dumb questions, but I have avoided working on AT until now. (only had manual trans until we got the 240D about 10 years ago.) Loren It's all a matter ATF pressure. Sounds like you are loosing pressure as the transmission fluid heats up and that causes the transmission to downshift and to NOT shift up. It can be a matter of wear
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
change the fluid and filter. Loren Faeth wrote: All you with auto trans experience: 88 300 TE trans has worked perfectly. Fri night after about 180 miles of a trip, suddenly downshifted into 3rd and stayed there. Fluid is ok, Level is ok. Fuel filters and throttle position seem to be normal (no sign of obstructed filter) within a few minuted it downshifted again into second. Then it starts a cycle of start, shift into 3rd, will seem to stay in gear at 30-35 mph, but won't shift up into 4th , even at higher speeds. If you try to push it above 40, it shifts into neutral. Let off the gas and wait, it will shift into gear again, then downshift to second or third. get up to 35 again, in 3rd, and it will run 5 miles or so, then shift into neutral and repeat the process. Let off the gas, coast wait until it shifts back into gear, etc. Any thoughts about the diagnosis? We managed to limp the last 30 miles and it started a disastrous weekend of dead electric motors and pumps not pumping, and another car down for the count. My guess is that the trans is dead. Loren 88 TE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Why couldn't the symptoms be vacuum related? On 8/22/06, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: change the fluid and filter. Loren Faeth wrote: All you with auto trans experience: 88 300 TE trans has worked perfectly. Fri night after about 180 miles of a trip, suddenly downshifted into 3rd and stayed there. Fluid is ok, Level is ok. Fuel filters and throttle position seem to be normal (no sign of obstructed filter) within a few minuted it downshifted again into second. Then it starts a cycle of start, shift into 3rd, will seem to stay in gear at 30-35 mph, but won't shift up into 4th , even at higher speeds. If you try to push it above 40, it shifts into neutral. Let off the gas and wait, it will shift into gear again, then downshift to second or third. get up to 35 again, in 3rd, and it will run 5 miles or so, then shift into neutral and repeat the process. Let off the gas, coast wait until it shifts back into gear, etc. Any thoughts about the diagnosis? We managed to limp the last 30 miles and it started a disastrous weekend of dead electric motors and pumps not pumping, and another car down for the count. My guess is that the trans is dead. Loren 88 TE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
vacuum has nothing to do with when the tranny shifts, it only controls how hard or soft the shifts are. andrew strasfogel wrote: Why couldn't the symptoms be vacuum related? On 8/22/06, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: change the fluid and filter. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
The fluid and filter were changed a couple of thousand miles ago. I was going to try that first, but figured it probably would not change much, since it was recently done. My brother also suggested to see if the valve body had loosened and was allowing fluid to bypass the normal circuits. He thinks it is a pump pressure problem within the trans. If I drop the pan, is the valve body right there? I have never messed with auto trans because I never wanted auto trans. It is almost impossible to find MB less than 40 years old without auto trans in this country, so here I am. The 40 year old ones get expensive to maintain Thanks to all who contributed ideas. Is the valve body held on with regular bolts or allen bolts? Is it sealed with gaskets or o-rings? Loren At 03:52 PM 8/22/2006, you wrote: Sounds like a computer and/or vacuum malfunction. I agree. Except that the computer in these vintages is fluidic, not electronic, and ATF courses through its veins not electrons. Your tranny is sick, in other words. You could try a fluid and filter change as that's fairly cheap in comparison to a replacement. Probably there is a chunk of crud lodged inside the valve body. If this didn't do it and you had some time and a WTF attitude you could take the valve body out and clean it. Hard to see how you'd end up worse off. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
body had loosened and was allowing fluid to bypass the normal circuits. He thinks it is a pump pressure problem within the trans. If I drop the pan, is the valve body right there? I have never messed with auto trans because The valve body is in fact what the pan covers. I would think that a front pump pressure problem would result in slipping, not just weird shifts. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Will a trans from a 300SE (126) fit? How about an 83 Euro 280SE 126?? A 190E 2.3 or 2.6 (201)? Or do I have to find a 124 gasser trans? (300E 260E)
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Ooops! forgot the reference and signature for Marshall This is an 88 300TE Loren Faeth 88 USA TE Et al At 12:42 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote: Will a trans from a 300SE (126) fit? How about an 83 Euro 280SE 126?? A 190E 2.3 or 2.6 (201)? Or do I have to find a 124 gasser trans? (300E 260E) Loren Faeth
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 03:27:37PM -0500, Loren Faeth wrote: All you with auto trans experience: 88 300 TE trans has worked perfectly. Fri night after about 180 miles of a trip, suddenly downshifted into 3rd and stayed there. Fluid is ok, Level is ok. Fuel filters and throttle position seem to be normal (no sign of obstructed filter) within a few minuted it downshifted again into second. Then it starts a cycle of start, shift into 3rd, will seem to stay in gear at 30-35 mph, but won't shift up into 4th , even at higher speeds. If you try to push it above 40, it shifts into neutral. Let off the gas and wait, it will shift into gear again, then downshift to second or third. get up to 35 again, in 3rd, and it will run 5 miles or so, then shift into neutral and repeat the process. Let off the gas, coast wait until it shifts back into gear, etc. Any thoughts about the diagnosis? We managed to limp the last 30 miles and it started a disastrous weekend of dead electric motors and pumps not pumping, and another car down for the count. My guess is that the trans is dead. I'd strongly consider changing the fluid and filter, thinking that perhaps there is a spec of dirt in a passage somewhere that isn't appearing on the stick. Other than that, it doesn't look good. K
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Sounds like a computer and/or vacuum malfunction. If it were mechanically caused you'd be slipping or simply unable to engage in gear (e.g., FW or RV). I knew when my transmission died because it simply refused to move in ANY direction (1983 300TD). On 8/22/06, Loren Faeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All you with auto trans experience: 88 300 TE trans has worked perfectly. Fri night after about 180 miles of a trip, suddenly downshifted into 3rd and stayed there. Fluid is ok, Level is ok. Fuel filters and throttle position seem to be normal (no sign of obstructed filter) within a few minuted it downshifted again into second. Then it starts a cycle of start, shift into 3rd, will seem to stay in gear at 30-35 mph, but won't shift up into 4th , even at higher speeds. If you try to push it above 40, it shifts into neutral. Let off the gas and wait, it will shift into gear again, then downshift to second or third. get up to 35 again, in 3rd, and it will run 5 miles or so, then shift into neutral and repeat the process. Let off the gas, coast wait until it shifts back into gear, etc. Any thoughts about the diagnosis? We managed to limp the last 30 miles and it started a disastrous weekend of dead electric motors and pumps not pumping, and another car down for the count. My guess is that the trans is dead. Loren 88 TE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
Sounds like a computer and/or vacuum malfunction. I agree. Except that the computer in these vintages is fluidic, not electronic, and ATF courses through its veins not electrons. Your tranny is sick, in other words. You could try a fluid and filter change as that's fairly cheap in comparison to a replacement. Probably there is a chunk of crud lodged inside the valve body. If this didn't do it and you had some time and a WTF attitude you could take the valve body out and clean it. Hard to see how you'd end up worse off. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
have ya'll had any luck with the ATF backflush done by some shops? they cirulate atf (as I understand it) by discnnecting the atf cooler lines and pumping it back thru the AT - wondering if in a situation like this [Loren's 300TE] it would help? Or would it do more harm? Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis Sounds like a computer and/or vacuum malfunction. I agree. Except that the computer in these vintages is fluidic, not electronic, and ATF courses through its veins not electrons. Your tranny is sick, in other words. You could try a fluid and filter change as that's fairly cheap in comparison to a replacement. Probably there is a chunk of crud lodged inside the valve body. If this didn't do it and you had some time and a WTF attitude you could take the valve body out and clean it. Hard to see how you'd end up worse off. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006
Re: [MBZ] 124 Trans diagnosis
wondering if in a situation like this [Loren's 300TE] it would help? Or would it do more harm? Converting it from something undrivable to what was that again? :-) -- Jim
