Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Curt Raymond]

I wrote it that way for a reason...

-Curt

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:48:41 -0500
From: "Scott Ritchey" 
To: "'Mercedes Discussion List'" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
Message-ID: <6EF67AB2CADB49EC990C61FC71D5DB7C@ScottPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"

Question:  What do you call a place that exports raw materials and imports
finished goods?
Answer: A colony.

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Curt Raymond
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:39 PM
To: Diesel List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

Worldwide lack of refineries is the problem right now entirely, theres
actually a surplus of oil (although that doesn't make much sense with
prices, blame that on speculators) and a shortage of refined product.

I'm surprised the Chinese haven't set up a mega-refinery yet. Buy our raw
material and sell us finished product

-Curt

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Rich Thomas]

Well, yeah, that is correct, but if TSHTF how long would it take the 
gummint to nationalize "our" oil.  Or put all kinds of controls on 
exports, imports, etc etc, you know, "for the common good"?


The Nobel Prize winner (not the Peace Prize, the chemistry or physics) 
Chu says the gummint's plan is to force us all to drive electric cars 
powered by the sun anyway.  For a smart guy, he should probably not let 
out those "secrets."


--R

On 2/29/12 9:25 PM, OK Don wrote:

There's that fallacy again - it's not "our" oil. It's the oil company's,
and they'll do with it what they like, sell it where they like, and buy
crude where they like. Unless we nationalize oil (Saudi Arabia and
Venezuela), it's not ours to claim. The oil companies have no national
interests - they're multi-national.

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Rich Thomas<
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net>  wrote:


Right now the US is exporting a lot of refined fuel to Yurp and elsewhere,
more than we are consuming?

One might also think it is better to use up other countries' crude before
using so much of ours, considering the costs of doing so of course.  Recent
discoveries suggest the US has enough to serve our needs for some time.

--R





--


OK Don

2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Gerry Archer]

This seems to be a fairly accurate description of the pipeline and it's effects:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-01/keystone-oil-pipeline-seen-raising-gas-prices-in-midwest-energy.html
 

The Economist wrote:
"The final section of the pipeline would have taken oil from Cushing, Oklahoma, 
to the Gulf coast, helping to alleviate a persistent price differential between 
Brent crude, the global benchmark oil, and West Texas Intermediate. Cushing, 
where most American oil is delivered is landlocked. There is not nearly enough 
pipeline capacity to the Gulf where global markets set prices. Unfortunately 
for American drivers, petrol (gasoline) is globally traded. The upshot is that 
local refiners can buy cheap Cushing crude and sell petrol at dearer global 
prices."
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/01/keystone-xl 

That part of the pipeline has been approved.
Gerry

From: "Curt Raymond" 
> As of today there is no approved route through Nebraska. How could Obama 
> approve a pipeline where the route is unknown? Are we supposed to take the 
> oil companies word for it?
> -Curt
> 
> From: Rich Thomas 
> They are going to mine it anyway, and sell it to the Chinese, so whether 
> it is dirty or whatever is not relevant to the argument.  The Canadians 
> are not so tied up in the fringe issue at this time.
> 
> I don't know if the pipeline will be above ground or below ground 
> through Nebraska (have not seen the design).  If it is below ground it 
> is basically "out of sight, out of mind."  There are thousands of miles 
> of pipelines (hundreds of thousands in the US I think) and most of them 
> are underground, and basically unnoticeable.  I observed a large 
> pipeline being laid in Texas (probably 24" or maybe bigger, hard to tell 
> from the road) and once they finished a section and back-filled it, 
> there was no evidence it was even there, save the occasional pump 
> station every mile or few.  And there are even pipelines in 
> Massachusetts and the sky has not fallen there yet (well, that is 
> debatable, but you know what I mean...).
> 
> The arguments against the pipeline (not the oil) are basically 
> political, depending on where you fall on the spectrum, and are mostly 
> unfounded based on anecdotal reality or any objective assessments.  
> Keystone is going to build the pipeline (at least parts of it) anyway, 
> the issue is the connection across the border, which for some reason the 
> Dept of State has weighed in on, and maybe the Nebraska route aspects 
> (which was approved, environmentally, already).  The oil seems to be 
> fairly nasty stuff, but given it is going to be produced anyway, might 
> as well get the benefit for the US economy.
> 
> The whole thing is a political treat tossed to Obama's enviro base (at 
> the expense of the union base that would build the pipeline), and after 
> the election, either way it goes, the pipeline will be approved, actual 
> private-sector and privately-funded jobs will obtain, and life will go 
> on.  Nothing more complicated than that.
> 
> --R
> 
> On 2/29/12 1:02 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:
>> Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
>> it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
>> stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...
>>
>> Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
>> people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they 
>> didn't want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska 
>> Keystone XL just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president 
>> is NOT in the wrong in rejecting the proposal.
>>
>> -Curt
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[OK Don]

There's that fallacy again - it's not "our" oil. It's the oil company's,
and they'll do with it what they like, sell it where they like, and buy
crude where they like. Unless we nationalize oil (Saudi Arabia and
Venezuela), it's not ours to claim. The oil companies have no national
interests - they're multi-national.

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

> Right now the US is exporting a lot of refined fuel to Yurp and elsewhere,
> more than we are consuming?
>
> One might also think it is better to use up other countries' crude before
> using so much of ours, considering the costs of doing so of course.  Recent
> discoveries suggest the US has enough to serve our needs for some time.
>
> --R
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
> OK Don
2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Mountain Man]

Scott wrote:
> Question:  What do you call a place that exports raw materials and imports
> finished goods?
> Answer: A colony.

Nice.
So, who's colony are we? - catch that --R?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Scott Ritchey]

Question:  What do you call a place that exports raw materials and imports
finished goods?
Answer: A colony.

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Curt Raymond
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:39 PM
To: Diesel List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

Worldwide lack of refineries is the problem right now entirely, theres
actually a surplus of oil (although that doesn't make much sense with
prices, blame that on speculators) and a shortage of refined product.

I'm surprised the Chinese haven't set up a mega-refinery yet. Buy our raw
material and sell us finished product

-Curt

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:58:47 -0800
From: clay monroe 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
Message-ID: <4b055d70-6920-4ed6-8fb7-228685722...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii

But why are we shipping not our oil as well as our oil from far north all
the way to the Gulf?  We should build refineries up north, turn the stuff to
useful fuel.  Home use would lower our price at the pump, then whatzizname
would get a free ride back to the whitehouse.

Making the Canadians build a pipeline to the Pacific on their own land to
supply china makes more sense, than letting the chinese suckle at our gulf
ports.  All the tar sand juice is not doing us any good, so kill the
pipelines unless half the goo goes to our own fuel needs and not to feed the
nations who will one day overtake us.


clay 

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Rich Thomas]

I think that stuff was going to refineries and chem plants in Texas, in 
Freeport and Baytown, to turn into chemicals (and maybe some fuels) that 
could then be shipped out to wherever as a "value-added" product.  There 
is a HUGE (I think the world's largest) chem plant down there, it is 
pretty amazing.  There is some aspect having to do with the chemistry of 
the crude and how easy it is to make various things, I read about it a 
while ago in the WSJ but it has been purged from my stack.


Right now the US is exporting a lot of refined fuel to Yurp and 
elsewhere, more than we are consuming?


One might also think it is better to use up other countries' crude 
before using so much of ours, considering the costs of doing so of 
course.  Recent discoveries suggest the US has enough to serve our needs 
for some time.


--R

On 2/29/12 2:58 PM, clay monroe wrote:

But why are we shipping not our oil as well as our oil from far north all the 
way to the Gulf?  We should build refineries up north, turn the stuff to useful 
fuel.  Home use would lower our price at the pump, then whatzizname would get a 
free ride back to the whitehouse.

Making the Canadians build a pipeline to the Pacific on their own land to 
supply china makes more sense, than letting the chinese suckle at our gulf 
ports.  All the tar sand juice is not doing us any good, so kill the pipelines 
unless half the goo goes to our own fuel needs and not to feed the nations who 
will one day overtake us.


clay

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers






On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:


Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...

Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they didn't 
want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska Keystone XL 
just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president is NOT in the 
wrong in rejecting the proposal.

-Curt

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:33:39 -0500
From: Allan Streib
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Mountain Man  writes:


Stray question regarding oil refining.
I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
refine?

I think in the past it was too expensive to refine, maybe in part
because it's "dirty" compared to more traditional crude oil.  With
prices where they are now, that has changed and suddenly extraction and
refining of oil from shale and tar sands is profitable.

Allan
--
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Mitch Haley]

Dan Penoff wrote:


Anyway, for some bizarre reason, the CFR has been the standard used by nearly 
every refinery in the world to measure and test the octane of the fuels they 
produce. You would think by now that there would be some sort of means of doing 
this in a lab or something


And that would be the difference between the research octane number and the 
motor octane number. In europe, I believe they just pay attention to the RON, 
over hear we do the MON and RON and take the average of the two.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[G Mann]

Whow, what a thing of beauty that must have been back in 1906.

Follows my point exactly. The refinery business is in the dark ages, has
been kept in the dark ages, and EPA and others will not embrace anything
"new and approved" because getting anything "approved" means running a
gauntlet through government agencies and government regulations and lawyers.

All at your expense, of course. Multiply that single item to test octane
rating by 1000 for each step in the refinery process, add constant
certification charges, fines, fees, documentation, union labor problems,
and it's enough to make you want to go buy a congressman.

Grant...
AZ...

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Dan Penoff  wrote:

> Here's an interesting story relative to refineries and the technology they
> use:
>
> In 1998 I was RIFF'ed out of a position.  I was searching for something
> new and got a call from a fellow I knew at Waukesha Engine, in where else,
> but Waukesha, WI.
>
> Seems that Waukesha has a obscure little division of the company that has
> been a cash cow for decades. This division builds the "gold" standard of
> octane test devices called the "CFR".
>
> The CFR is a single cylinder engine that has variable compression by means
> of a cylinder arrangement that literally "screws" up or down to change the
> compression ratio.  When refineries crack a batch of oil and want to test
> the octane of the fuel coming out of the towers, they pull a sample and put
> it into the CFR, which is run while increasing the compression until the
> engine knocks.  There are mechanical (now digital) knock sensors in the
> cylinder head that trigger the instrumentation and give a corresponding
> reference to the octane of the test sample.
>
> If you saw one of these things you would think you had arrived at an old
> agricultural engine expo.  Here is a picture of a current production unit -
> looks like modern technology, doesn't it?
>
>
> http://www.dresserwaukesha.com/images/CFR_Downloads/f1f2_octane_unit_hires.tif
>
> Anyway, for some bizarre reason, the CFR has been the standard used by
> nearly every refinery in the world to measure and test the octane of the
> fuels they produce. You would think by now that there would be some sort of
> means of doing this in a lab or something
>
> At the time they said a basic unit (still built by hand in Waukesha's
> factory) was in the range of $250,000.  Every one of them had to have an
> annual support contract, which kept three technicians busy throughout the
> world year 'round.
>
> I was intrigued, but had recently come off of eight years of heavy travel
> and had no interest in sitting in a plane for a living, so I passed.
>
> Looks like GE has purchased Waukesha, or at least this division, as a
> quick Google search ends up on a GE sponsored page with the CFR.
>
> Dan
>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:16 PM, G Mann wrote:
>
> > I agree with you, new refineries need to be built up north. Problem is,
> no
> > new refinery has been built in past 25 years because the EPA and the Eco
> > terrorist greenies simply have not allowed it.
> >
> > Now refineries are getting old, are using old tech systems, and are not
> > capable of taking on new supplies with major rework, which is ALSO denied
> > by EPA, CARB, Air Quality, and every other 3 letter government agency
> known
> > to man.
> >
> > If you want cheap gas at the pumps, fire all these folks and arrest the
> > Eco-terrorist, then build new refineries like Ford built model T cars.
> >
> > Until then, we all "suck it up" and pay,,, dearly.
> >
> > Grant...
> > AZ
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Dan Penoff]

Here's an interesting story relative to refineries and the technology they use:

In 1998 I was RIFF'ed out of a position.  I was searching for something new and 
got a call from a fellow I knew at Waukesha Engine, in where else, but 
Waukesha, WI.

Seems that Waukesha has a obscure little division of the company that has been 
a cash cow for decades. This division builds the "gold" standard of octane test 
devices called the "CFR".

The CFR is a single cylinder engine that has variable compression by means of a 
cylinder arrangement that literally "screws" up or down to change the 
compression ratio.  When refineries crack a batch of oil and want to test the 
octane of the fuel coming out of the towers, they pull a sample and put it into 
the CFR, which is run while increasing the compression until the engine knocks. 
 There are mechanical (now digital) knock sensors in the cylinder head that 
trigger the instrumentation and give a corresponding reference to the octane of 
the test sample.

If you saw one of these things you would think you had arrived at an old 
agricultural engine expo.  Here is a picture of a current production unit - 
looks like modern technology, doesn't it?

http://www.dresserwaukesha.com/images/CFR_Downloads/f1f2_octane_unit_hires.tif

Anyway, for some bizarre reason, the CFR has been the standard used by nearly 
every refinery in the world to measure and test the octane of the fuels they 
produce. You would think by now that there would be some sort of means of doing 
this in a lab or something

At the time they said a basic unit (still built by hand in Waukesha's factory) 
was in the range of $250,000.  Every one of them had to have an annual support 
contract, which kept three technicians busy throughout the world year 'round.

I was intrigued, but had recently come off of eight years of heavy travel and 
had no interest in sitting in a plane for a living, so I passed.

Looks like GE has purchased Waukesha, or at least this division, as a quick 
Google search ends up on a GE sponsored page with the CFR.

Dan

On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:16 PM, G Mann wrote:

> I agree with you, new refineries need to be built up north. Problem is, no
> new refinery has been built in past 25 years because the EPA and the Eco
> terrorist greenies simply have not allowed it.
> 
> Now refineries are getting old, are using old tech systems, and are not
> capable of taking on new supplies with major rework, which is ALSO denied
> by EPA, CARB, Air Quality, and every other 3 letter government agency known
> to man.
> 
> If you want cheap gas at the pumps, fire all these folks and arrest the
> Eco-terrorist, then build new refineries like Ford built model T cars.
> 
> Until then, we all "suck it up" and pay,,, dearly.
> 
> Grant...
> AZ
> 


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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[G Mann]

I agree with you, new refineries need to be built up north. Problem is, no
new refinery has been built in past 25 years because the EPA and the Eco
terrorist greenies simply have not allowed it.

Now refineries are getting old, are using old tech systems, and are not
capable of taking on new supplies with major rework, which is ALSO denied
by EPA, CARB, Air Quality, and every other 3 letter government agency known
to man.

If you want cheap gas at the pumps, fire all these folks and arrest the
Eco-terrorist, then build new refineries like Ford built model T cars.

Until then, we all "suck it up" and pay,,, dearly.

Grant...
AZ


On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:58 PM, clay monroe  wrote:

> But why are we shipping not our oil as well as our oil from far north all
> the way to the Gulf?  We should build refineries up north, turn the stuff
> to useful fuel.  Home use would lower our price at the pump, then
> whatzizname would get a free ride back to the whitehouse.
>
> Making the Canadians build a pipeline to the Pacific on their own land to
> supply china makes more sense, than letting the chinese suckle at our gulf
> ports.  All the tar sand juice is not doing us any good, so kill the
> pipelines unless half the goo goes to our own fuel needs and not to feed
> the nations who will one day overtake us.
>
>
> clay
>
> 1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
> 1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
> POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:
>
> > Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip
> mine it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly
> great stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...
> >
> > Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the
> pipeline people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain)
> if they didn't want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of
> Nebraska Keystone XL just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our
> president is NOT in the wrong in rejecting the proposal.
> >
> > -Curt
> >
> > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:33:39 -0500
> > From: Allan Streib 
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Mountain Man  writes:
> >
> >> Stray question regarding oil refining.
> >> I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
> >> sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
> >> refine?
> >
> > I think in the past it was too expensive to refine, maybe in part
> > because it's "dirty" compared to more traditional crude oil.  With
> > prices where they are now, that has changed and suddenly extraction and
> > refining of oil from shale and tar sands is profitable.
> >
> > Allan
> > --
> > 1983 300D
> > 1979 300SD
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Dan Penoff]

They have already done the preliminary surveys for the proposed routes.

Ted Turner's ranch was close to one of the proposed routes, do he got involved 
and was raising Cain about it for some time.

Dan


On Feb 29, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:

> As of today there is no approved route through Nebraska. How could Obama 
> approve a pipeline where the route is unknown? Are we supposed to take the 
> oil companies word for it?
> 
> -Curt
> 
> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:40:11 -0500
> From: Rich Thomas 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
> Message-ID: <4f4e710b.5060...@constructivity.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> They are going to mine it anyway, and sell it to the Chinese, so whether 
> it is dirty or whatever is not relevant to the argument.  The Canadians 
> are not so tied up in the fringe issue at this time.
> 
> I don't know if the pipeline will be above ground or below ground 
> through Nebraska (have not seen the design).  If it is below ground it 
> is basically "out of sight, out of mind."  There are thousands of miles 
> of pipelines (hundreds of thousands in the US I think) and most of them 
> are underground, and basically unnoticeable.  I observed a large 
> pipeline being laid in Texas (probably 24" or maybe bigger, hard to tell 
> from the road) and once they finished a section and back-filled it, 
> there was no evidence it was even there, save the occasional pump 
> station every mile or few.  And there are even pipelines in 
> Massachusetts and the sky has not fallen there yet (well, that is 
> debatable, but you know what I mean...).
> 
> The arguments against the pipeline (not the oil) are basically 
> political, depending on where you fall on the spectrum, and are mostly 
> unfounded based on anecdotal reality or any objective assessments.  
> Keystone is going to build the pipeline (at least parts of it) anyway, 
> the issue is the connection across the border, which for some reason the 
> Dept of State has weighed in on, and maybe the Nebraska route aspects 
> (which was approved, environmentally, already).  The oil seems to be 
> fairly nasty stuff, but given it is going to be produced anyway, might 
> as well get the benefit for the US economy.
> 
> The whole thing is a political treat tossed to Obama's enviro base (at 
> the expense of the union base that would build the pipeline), and after 
> the election, either way it goes, the pipeline will be approved, actual 
> private-sector and privately-funded jobs will obtain, and life will go 
> on.  Nothing more complicated than that.
> 
> --R
> 
> On 2/29/12 1:02 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:
>> Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
>> it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
>> stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...
>> 
>> Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
>> people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they 
>> didn't want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska 
>> Keystone XL just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president 
>> is NOT in the wrong in rejecting the proposal.
>> 
>> -Curt
> 
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Curt Raymond]

Worldwide lack of refineries is the problem right now entirely, theres actually 
a surplus of oil (although that doesn't make much sense with prices, blame that 
on speculators) and a shortage of refined product.

I'm surprised the Chinese haven't set up a mega-refinery yet. Buy our raw 
material and sell us finished product

-Curt

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:58:47 -0800
From: clay monroe 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
Message-ID: <4b055d70-6920-4ed6-8fb7-228685722...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii

But why are we shipping not our oil as well as our oil from far north all the 
way to the Gulf?  We should build refineries up north, turn the stuff to useful 
fuel.  Home use would lower our price at the pump, then whatzizname would get a 
free ride back to the whitehouse.

Making the Canadians build a pipeline to the Pacific on their own land to 
supply china makes more sense, than letting the chinese suckle at our gulf 
ports.  All the tar sand juice is not doing us any good, so kill the pipelines 
unless half the goo goes to our own fuel needs and not to feed the nations who 
will one day overtake us.


clay 

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Curt Raymond]

As of today there is no approved route through Nebraska. How could Obama 
approve a pipeline where the route is unknown? Are we supposed to take the oil 
companies word for it?

-Curt

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:40:11 -0500
From: Rich Thomas 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
Message-ID: <4f4e710b.5060...@constructivity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

They are going to mine it anyway, and sell it to the Chinese, so whether 
it is dirty or whatever is not relevant to the argument.  The Canadians 
are not so tied up in the fringe issue at this time.

I don't know if the pipeline will be above ground or below ground 
through Nebraska (have not seen the design).  If it is below ground it 
is basically "out of sight, out of mind."  There are thousands of miles 
of pipelines (hundreds of thousands in the US I think) and most of them 
are underground, and basically unnoticeable.  I observed a large 
pipeline being laid in Texas (probably 24" or maybe bigger, hard to tell 
from the road) and once they finished a section and back-filled it, 
there was no evidence it was even there, save the occasional pump 
station every mile or few.  And there are even pipelines in 
Massachusetts and the sky has not fallen there yet (well, that is 
debatable, but you know what I mean...).

The arguments against the pipeline (not the oil) are basically 
political, depending on where you fall on the spectrum, and are mostly 
unfounded based on anecdotal reality or any objective assessments.  
Keystone is going to build the pipeline (at least parts of it) anyway, 
the issue is the connection across the border, which for some reason the 
Dept of State has weighed in on, and maybe the Nebraska route aspects 
(which was approved, environmentally, already).  The oil seems to be 
fairly nasty stuff, but given it is going to be produced anyway, might 
as well get the benefit for the US economy.

The whole thing is a political treat tossed to Obama's enviro base (at 
the expense of the union base that would build the pipeline), and after 
the election, either way it goes, the pipeline will be approved, actual 
private-sector and privately-funded jobs will obtain, and life will go 
on.  Nothing more complicated than that.

--R

On 2/29/12 1:02 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:
> Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
> it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
> stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...
>
> Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
> people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they 
> didn't want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska 
> Keystone XL just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president is 
> NOT in the wrong in rejecting the proposal.
>
> -Curt

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Dan Penoff]

The original plan was to run this pipeline to the Pacific coast of Canada, but 
the environmentalists in Canada are powerful enough that they were able to 
quash it.

This is why they turned to the south and looked for the closest port

There is an existing portion of the pipeline in Canada, and it's been managed 
poorly, which is probably the reason why Canadians pulled the plug on trying to 
run it to the Pacific.

I worked at a couple of the early oil sands sites in eastern Alberta, and that 
stuff was flat-out nasty

Dan

On Feb 29, 2012, at 2:58 PM, clay monroe  wrote:

> But why are we shipping not our oil as well as our oil from far north all the 
> way to the Gulf?  We should build refineries up north, turn the stuff to 
> useful fuel.  Home use would lower our price at the pump, then whatzizname 
> would get a free ride back to the whitehouse.
> 
> Making the Canadians build a pipeline to the Pacific on their own land to 
> supply china makes more sense, than letting the chinese suckle at our gulf 
> ports.  All the tar sand juice is not doing us any good, so kill the 
> pipelines unless half the goo goes to our own fuel needs and not to feed the 
> nations who will one day overtake us.
> 
> 
> clay 
> 
> 1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
> 1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
> POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:
> 
>> Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
>> it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
>> stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...
>> 
>> Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
>> people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they 
>> didn't want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska 
>> Keystone XL just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president 
>> is NOT in the wrong in rejecting the proposal.
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:33:39 -0500
>> From: Allan Streib 
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
>> Message-ID: 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> 
>> Mountain Man  writes:
>> 
>>> Stray question regarding oil refining.
>>> I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
>>> sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
>>> refine?
>> 
>> I think in the past it was too expensive to refine, maybe in part
>> because it's "dirty" compared to more traditional crude oil.  With
>> prices where they are now, that has changed and suddenly extraction and
>> refining of oil from shale and tar sands is profitable.
>> 
>> Allan
>> -- 
>> 1983 300D
>> 1979 300SD
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[clay monroe]

But why are we shipping not our oil as well as our oil from far north all the 
way to the Gulf?  We should build refineries up north, turn the stuff to useful 
fuel.  Home use would lower our price at the pump, then whatzizname would get a 
free ride back to the whitehouse.

Making the Canadians build a pipeline to the Pacific on their own land to 
supply china makes more sense, than letting the chinese suckle at our gulf 
ports.  All the tar sand juice is not doing us any good, so kill the pipelines 
unless half the goo goes to our own fuel needs and not to feed the nations who 
will one day overtake us.


clay 

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers






On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Curt Raymond wrote:

> Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
> it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
> stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...
> 
> Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
> people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they 
> didn't want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska 
> Keystone XL just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president is 
> NOT in the wrong in rejecting the proposal.
> 
> -Curt
> 
> Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:33:39 -0500
> From: Allan Streib 
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Mountain Man  writes:
> 
>> Stray question regarding oil refining.
>> I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
>> sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
>> refine?
> 
> I think in the past it was too expensive to refine, maybe in part
> because it's "dirty" compared to more traditional crude oil.  With
> prices where they are now, that has changed and suddenly extraction and
> refining of oil from shale and tar sands is profitable.
> 
> Allan
> -- 
> 1983 300D
> 1979 300SD
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Rich Thomas]

They are going to mine it anyway, and sell it to the Chinese, so whether 
it is dirty or whatever is not relevant to the argument.  The Canadians 
are not so tied up in the fringe issue at this time.


I don't know if the pipeline will be above ground or below ground 
through Nebraska (have not seen the design).  If it is below ground it 
is basically "out of sight, out of mind."  There are thousands of miles 
of pipelines (hundreds of thousands in the US I think) and most of them 
are underground, and basically unnoticeable.  I observed a large 
pipeline being laid in Texas (probably 24" or maybe bigger, hard to tell 
from the road) and once they finished a section and back-filled it, 
there was no evidence it was even there, save the occasional pump 
station every mile or few.  And there are even pipelines in 
Massachusetts and the sky has not fallen there yet (well, that is 
debatable, but you know what I mean...).


The arguments against the pipeline (not the oil) are basically 
political, depending on where you fall on the spectrum, and are mostly 
unfounded based on anecdotal reality or any objective assessments.  
Keystone is going to build the pipeline (at least parts of it) anyway, 
the issue is the connection across the border, which for some reason the 
Dept of State has weighed in on, and maybe the Nebraska route aspects 
(which was approved, environmentally, already).  The oil seems to be 
fairly nasty stuff, but given it is going to be produced anyway, might 
as well get the benefit for the US economy.


The whole thing is a political treat tossed to Obama's enviro base (at 
the expense of the union base that would build the pipeline), and after 
the election, either way it goes, the pipeline will be approved, actual 
private-sector and privately-funded jobs will obtain, and life will go 
on.  Nothing more complicated than that.


--R

On 2/29/12 1:02 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:

Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...

Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they didn't 
want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska Keystone XL 
just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president is NOT in the 
wrong in rejecting the proposal.

-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Curt Raymond]

Its dirty and they have to basically boil it out of the ground or strip mine 
it, it doesn't flow on its own. Environmentally its not particularly great 
stuff. It also takes quite a large energy input to retrieve...

Read up on the Keystone XL through Nebraska. In a lot of cases the pipeline 
people threatened land owners with land takings (eminent domain) if they didn't 
want to allow the pipeline across their land. In a lot of Nebraska Keystone XL 
just ain't gonna happen. As far as I'm concerned our president is NOT in the 
wrong in rejecting the proposal.

-Curt

Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:33:39 -0500
From: Allan Streib 
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Mountain Man  writes:

> Stray question regarding oil refining.
> I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
> sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
> refine?

I think in the past it was too expensive to refine, maybe in part
because it's "dirty" compared to more traditional crude oil.  With
prices where they are now, that has changed and suddenly extraction and
refining of oil from shale and tar sands is profitable.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Allan Streib]

Mountain Man  writes:

> Stray question regarding oil refining.
> I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
> sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
> refine?

I think in the past it was too expensive to refine, maybe in part
because it's "dirty" compared to more traditional crude oil.  With
prices where they are now, that has changed and suddenly extraction and
refining of oil from shale and tar sands is profitable.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[Mountain Man]

clay wrote:
> ...since they do home heating as well.

Stray question regarding oil refining.
I think I have heard stories lately about the pipeline for the tar
sand oil from Canada.  Are they saying this oil is really dirty to
refine?

Shall we stray a bit off to politics?
For what reason, other than buy-out of bureaucrats by big biz is this
such a critical resource?  Is there any position in the marketplace
that big biz does not buy?  Free markets, clean governance seem to be
a thing of the past.  While we have heard of dirty for generations, it
seems to be much larger today than in the past??  I would guess free
market is far from what we have here in the 'proud' 'ole USA (I am
quickly losing any pride of being an american).  The markets appear to
be free, but are totally regulated beyond ability to let markets rule.
 That defines lack of free market to my thinking.  Eliminate
'protective' regulation entirely.  Let local rule.  Let small rule.
Let innovation rule.  Let us suffer a bit of charlatan.  Let us suffer
a bit of failure.  Let us suffer a few mishaps with snake oil.  Let us
learn what 'market rule' looks like, rather than the 'freedom'
regulated by bureaucrats that we know today - yuk!!
mao

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[ernestb]

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URL: 

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Re: [MBZ] BioD was Volt vs. Gas

[clay monroe]

Was par for the past four months and when I filled up last, it had dropped 
below #2.  I think the fuel oil moves much faster at my place, since they do 
home heating as well.  BioD must be on contract, as I can not see them turning 
it over fast enough to keep up with present pricing.

clay


On Feb 27, 2012, at 9:47 PM, Kevin Kraly wrote:

> BioDiesel for .28 less than #2?  That's gone the other way in the 10 years 
> I've had an interest.  I tried some bio in my first 300D.  At that time in 
> 2003, it was $.50 more than #2D.  I'll have to check prices for bio in 
> Portland since I don't believe it's available out here in the westside 'burbs.
> 
> Kevin in Hillsboro, Oregon
> 1977 240D 315Kmi, Liesel the Diesel 
> 
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