Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
Every year it makes a little more sense. The price of oil hasn't gone down dramatically in the last decade, not likely to go that way with the excitement in Ukraine. -Curt Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:28:52 -0700 From: G Mann To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wind Power Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Excellent point Scott, Wind power as a small scale, personal use application, certainly has strong points. On a commercial scale to supply power for say NYC... not currently practical, if ever. My units at the ranch likely make enough power to run the refrig and a ham radio, some LED lights, so in survival mode, worth keeping ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
So wayy back when I and myu colleagues did the first insurance analysis for commercial wind turbines. There was a Boeing machine and a Hamilton Standard machine (I can't remember if that was their own, but they built the blades for it). (this was the one we were assessing.) These were like 5MW machines and they were located near Medicine Bow, Wyoming, out in the middle of nowhere but the wind blew well there. Went there in like March or so, it was cold as hell and the wind was blowing big. The nacelle sat 250ft high, blades were 250ft diameter so like 125 each. Spinner they mounted to was about 8ft diameter, a very large single casting. Blades could be feathered and were hollow to crawl out inside should inspection and repairs be required. The nacelle was maybe 12'W x 24'L x 10" high and contained the gearbox and generator and power handling/transfer equipment. There was a hatch on top you could climb out to the top, which I did (cold, windy maybe 25kt at that time...). When they first turned the machine on and started to spin it up, it ran on up and was putting out 5MW no problem. Then someone outside the control room noticed the blades were bending FORWARD as was the tower. STOPSTOPSTOP! Then they get a call from the BPA asking why the site was suddenly drawing 5MW off their grid, whatthehell was going on? Turns out there were 2 errors -- the wiring on the machine was reversed and the power meter had also been reversed. So while the operators thought it was putting out 5MW it was really drawing 5MW and running as a giant fan. OOPS. THey got that fixed and it went to do whatever it did. Toured the blade production facility which was in CT. Hamilton Standard had built what was pretty much a giant lathe with a mandrel of the blade's shape onto which was wound miles and miles of fiberglass string impregnated with the epoxy. The spool just went back and forth winding the stuff onto the mandrel. It was very messy but worked well. Then they would pull the blade off the mandrel and ship them out to WY or wherever. The tax credit deal expired at some point and the wind machine bidness expired with it, not sure whatever happened to the machine or the production facility. I vaguely recall they built a few of them but don't remember the details. Hamilton Standard never had a propeller fail in service due to manufacturing defects, over decades of manufacturing. They were very proud of that. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
Excellent point Scott, Wind power as a small scale, personal use application, certainly has strong points. On a commercial scale to supply power for say NYC... not currently practical, if ever. My units at the ranch likely make enough power to run the refrig and a ham radio, some LED lights, so in survival mode, worth keeping. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Scott Ritchey wrote: > > One niche where wind power does make sense is cruising sailboats, > particularly at anchor or on a mooring. In that case the only alternatives > for battery charging are solar cells (low output) or running the engine > (even more noisy). At anchor, wind (unobstructed by land features) is > frequently available and the occupants (being cruisers) can adjust their > schedules to accommodate power availability. I sold my Cape Dory when I > moved inland to the NC Piedmont in 2005. > > Scott > > > -Original Message- > > From: G Mann > > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 1:28 PM > > > > Wind power, developed on a commercial scale, has serious economic flaws. > > ... > > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those > individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner > has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
One niche where wind power does make sense is cruising sailboats, particularly at anchor or on a mooring. In that case the only alternatives for battery charging are solar cells (low output) or running the engine (even more noisy). At anchor, wind (unobstructed by land features) is frequently available and the occupants (being cruisers) can adjust their schedules to accommodate power availability. I sold my Cape Dory when I moved inland to the NC Piedmont in 2005. Scott > -Original Message- > From: G Mann > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 1:28 PM > > Wind power, developed on a commercial scale, has serious economic flaws. > ... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
Any avian or raptor mortality? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:28 PM, G Mann wrote: > Wind power, developed on a commercial scale, has serious economic flaws. > While much political and environmental noise is made about how clean it is > and how it will "save the environment/world", if you truly put the > accountant pencil to paper, the cost to purchase, build, install, connect > versus the return on investment from actual power generated and sold does > not pay out. > > To date, from the information I have, no wind power farm has produced > enough electricity sold to pay for it's install and upkeep costs much less > produce a profit without constant influx of federal support grants and > money. When the federal money runs out, the wind farm is left "breathless" > to continue on a practical economic scale. > > Bottom line always is, the wind blows when it blows while people want their > electricity constant and there is no way yet devised to store huge amounts > of generated electricity for later use. Major flaw is all wind farm designs > and wind farm tech support. > > If however, we could keep congress in session and all politicians talking, > we would have an endless source of hot air that could be harnessed that > might be a viable use of an otherwise worthless expense. > > I've been following wind power rather closely since the 1973 Great Oil > Embargo and formation of OPEC. One of the first large scale wind farms is > the one at Banning, CA. Some of the original wind generators are still > there, and it's my information that those, since 1974 install still have > not paid for themselves in actual KW produced and sold. > > I have two wind towers at my ranch, tied into the solar/battery bank as > supplemental power to pick up a few watts of energy when the wind blows. > Each tower cost about $5K all in and other than I can claim how "green" I > am for having them, they have not produced enough to warrant their install > in real return on investment. > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Dan Penoff wrote: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Indiana > > > > Dan > > > > > > ___ > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those > > individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner > > has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those > individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner > has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
Wind power, developed on a commercial scale, has serious economic flaws. While much political and environmental noise is made about how clean it is and how it will "save the environment/world", if you truly put the accountant pencil to paper, the cost to purchase, build, install, connect versus the return on investment from actual power generated and sold does not pay out. To date, from the information I have, no wind power farm has produced enough electricity sold to pay for it's install and upkeep costs much less produce a profit without constant influx of federal support grants and money. When the federal money runs out, the wind farm is left "breathless" to continue on a practical economic scale. Bottom line always is, the wind blows when it blows while people want their electricity constant and there is no way yet devised to store huge amounts of generated electricity for later use. Major flaw is all wind farm designs and wind farm tech support. If however, we could keep congress in session and all politicians talking, we would have an endless source of hot air that could be harnessed that might be a viable use of an otherwise worthless expense. I've been following wind power rather closely since the 1973 Great Oil Embargo and formation of OPEC. One of the first large scale wind farms is the one at Banning, CA. Some of the original wind generators are still there, and it's my information that those, since 1974 install still have not paid for themselves in actual KW produced and sold. I have two wind towers at my ranch, tied into the solar/battery bank as supplemental power to pick up a few watts of energy when the wind blows. Each tower cost about $5K all in and other than I can claim how "green" I am for having them, they have not produced enough to warrant their install in real return on investment. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Dan Penoff wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Indiana > > Dan > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those > individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner > has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Wind Power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Indiana Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
